FE 1/8th scale make it a legal class or not
- Thread starter brooks93
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If I may add my opinion to two things that have been brought up here goes......
1. This is for Kevin. As the guest host CD, I can be blamed for any possible teching or lack of teching in the classes that ran. We did not inspect every boat as we relied that everyone was legal until proven illegal through the protest procedure. Many boaters came up to us and asked us what they needed to do to make their boat compliant and we helped them out.
If anyone had a problem with a hull not being compliant in a particuar class, they had to protest the hull in the morning and not at the end of the day results. They also could not protest one persons hull. If there were 7 boats in a class of that hull design, they had to protest all 7 and put up the money for 7 and take their chances. Nobody protested and nobody complained. They had enough other things about me to complain about.
2. FE classes............ this is no different than nitro. Nobody says that you have to offer them all. But different parts of the country have classes that are more popular than other parts of the country. And your Nats do move around. There is nothing wrong with putting a minimum number of entries in a class. But if you can find a sponsor for a class, are you sure you want to drop it????? The only problem you will have to worry about if FE continues to grow, is if you want less classes and continue a four day event, or add one day and run all the classes you get entries and sponsorships for.
..........and this is for anyone who was at the recent FE Nats. I dare you to go up to Jacob Hughey and tell him that C box will no longer run. Did anybody see that boys face when he got his trophy? You can bet that it was his pillow on that 8 hour drive home.
Al Waters
NAMBA Vice President
NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman
1. This is for Kevin. As the guest host CD, I can be blamed for any possible teching or lack of teching in the classes that ran. We did not inspect every boat as we relied that everyone was legal until proven illegal through the protest procedure. Many boaters came up to us and asked us what they needed to do to make their boat compliant and we helped them out.
If anyone had a problem with a hull not being compliant in a particuar class, they had to protest the hull in the morning and not at the end of the day results. They also could not protest one persons hull. If there were 7 boats in a class of that hull design, they had to protest all 7 and put up the money for 7 and take their chances. Nobody protested and nobody complained. They had enough other things about me to complain about.
2. FE classes............ this is no different than nitro. Nobody says that you have to offer them all. But different parts of the country have classes that are more popular than other parts of the country. And your Nats do move around. There is nothing wrong with putting a minimum number of entries in a class. But if you can find a sponsor for a class, are you sure you want to drop it????? The only problem you will have to worry about if FE continues to grow, is if you want less classes and continue a four day event, or add one day and run all the classes you get entries and sponsorships for.
..........and this is for anyone who was at the recent FE Nats. I dare you to go up to Jacob Hughey and tell him that C box will no longer run. Did anybody see that boys face when he got his trophy? You can bet that it was his pillow on that 8 hour drive home.
Al Waters
NAMBA Vice President
NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman
Kevin Whitehead
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No one is blaming anyone for anything especially as teching goes. With the limited number of entries in 1/8th Scale and newness of the class, it would have been a bad move to put any entry out.
That said, if the Scale Unlimited rules were adopted to electric (minus motor regs), the boats with helmets glued onto cowlings wouldn't meet the driver requirements. Am I correct in that? Minor work for somebody who has spent all effort on the rest of the boat.
You're right on the "must offer" requirement. No such animal. Sometime over the last six years, I (and many others) have been fooled into the belief that it existed.
Another gem is that the rules say the Nats MUST be a minimum seven day event. Simply fascinating!
Al, how many Nitro classes are there? And Gas?
There are presently something like 28 electric classes. More being offered up. And electric has a much smaller participation base.
KW
That said, if the Scale Unlimited rules were adopted to electric (minus motor regs), the boats with helmets glued onto cowlings wouldn't meet the driver requirements. Am I correct in that? Minor work for somebody who has spent all effort on the rest of the boat.
You're right on the "must offer" requirement. No such animal. Sometime over the last six years, I (and many others) have been fooled into the belief that it existed.
Another gem is that the rules say the Nats MUST be a minimum seven day event. Simply fascinating!
Al, how many Nitro classes are there? And Gas?
There are presently something like 28 electric classes. More being offered up. And electric has a much smaller participation base.
KW
Pagemaster
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No, what I meant was that this was a case of the right place at the right time! In New Jersey I bet there are no more than 40 racers. So I don't see the number of heats run for the same class being as large of a problem as it was this year. So if that's the case does the number of classes need to be thinned? Leave the classes the same and make a minimum number of entries.
I do have to give a ton of credit to all the people that ran the Nats. They ran it fast and efficiently.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this one but I would like to see one of the slower classes changed to a "max age of participation". There was a boy at the nats that was very disappointed, he lost to a bunch of older guys. I think kids should be competing with people in there age group. Say maybe 16 years old maximum age.
Darin Jordan
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Pagemaster said:
That's funny... You should see the dissappointment on MY face when I get whopped on by 8-year old Colton Crowe in N1!! :blink:
Kevin,
I think that maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you meant teching all of the sport classes. No way were we going to ding anyone on anything in Scale Unlimited.
As the NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman, I am being contacted by the guys who have taken the ball and run with on what to do to help FE Scale Unlimited become a NAMBA class. It is not as easy as people think. Once we come up with a package, we know that this board and the Red board will be all over it like the 19 and 27 turn motors and the offshore course.
The problems we have right now, some being small and some being a little bigger are being worked out now by the FE Chairman, myself, the FE Nats committee, the District Directors who are FE members and those who were involved in the latest FE proposals that were voted on.
The NAMBA rulebook was made years a go. Gas and FE have since added on. Not all rules in the rulebook can be applied at an FE Nats and that is what is being worked on. Someone brought up that a Nats is supposed to be a seven day event.
That wasn't directed at FE because FE wasnt around then in NAMBA as organized racing.
Another would be the use of the word Scale currently used in the FE Sport classes.
I could (I guess I am now) bring up that NAMBA loans up to $2000 for start up costs for a Nats to host an event. $1000 is paid at the beginning of the event and $1000 at the conclusion. The host club is supposed to pay $1.00 for every boat entered to NAMBA for hosting the Nats. Trophies are to be given three per sponsored class or one per five entries if there are more that 15 entries in a class.
..........and it is required to run a Kids R Boaters Too event for junior NAMBA members, free to the entrants and trophies are provided to all (youngest at a Nats was one week shy of two years old). Dave Rychalsky, the NAMBA Nats Chairman is putting together a Nats rule package but it is not aimed at FE. It can be used if FE wants but, I think that it will currently be suited more towards Nitro Nats. I do know that if he was contacted he would be more than happy to put a package together for the FE community so that there would be consistency year to year.
I was told before I went to the FE Nats that the FE community felt like they were being treated like a lost stepchild. That NAMBA didnt recognize them on the same level as nitro. Our take was that we couldnt get the FE community to step forward and get involved more. That has all now changed. The VP and Scale Unlimited chairman was at the Nats (myself), Dave Bestpitch who is the NAMBA Awards and Records Chairman was there. We both will be running for NAMBA President later in the year. Terry Davis is the new DD of District 2 and Doug Robichaud of District 4.
We now have good lines of communication and that is the best foundation we can work on. Both Dave and I will pass on our experiences to the BOD at the Nitro Nats in N.H.
In nitro there are 28 classes offered not including the Team Marathons, the DEEP VEE Offshore Classes, sometimes Open Twin Rigger is offered, and all of the Gas classes (around 17 could be offered not including any Offshore Classes). Only those with enough participation (5 minimum at a Nats) will run.
That is why Nitro requires a 7 day event.
Pagemaster,
you wont get flamed. The FE Nats committee wished that they would have had a Kids class. But they didnt know until Dave Bestpitch and I compared Nats notes with them. If you are talking about Jacob Hughey, fear not. He was the happiest kid on the planet in crackerbox. He came up to me hoping that he took third in the class. We checked it out and discovered that he did. Jacob's dad told us to have his trophy mailed to him. That wasnt good enough. Dennis Whitt found the trophy and it was given to Jacob before the Hughey family left. I think that Jacob used it as a pillow for the long drive home.
One last note if I havent put you to sleep already. There may be more nitro racers, but there are many more boats per FE racer. I can't possibly meet everyone at a Nitro Nats. I knew every entrant at the FE Nats by the end of four days. I like the latter.
Al Waters
NAMBA Vice President
NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman
I think that maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you meant teching all of the sport classes. No way were we going to ding anyone on anything in Scale Unlimited.
As the NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman, I am being contacted by the guys who have taken the ball and run with on what to do to help FE Scale Unlimited become a NAMBA class. It is not as easy as people think. Once we come up with a package, we know that this board and the Red board will be all over it like the 19 and 27 turn motors and the offshore course.
The problems we have right now, some being small and some being a little bigger are being worked out now by the FE Chairman, myself, the FE Nats committee, the District Directors who are FE members and those who were involved in the latest FE proposals that were voted on.
The NAMBA rulebook was made years a go. Gas and FE have since added on. Not all rules in the rulebook can be applied at an FE Nats and that is what is being worked on. Someone brought up that a Nats is supposed to be a seven day event.
That wasn't directed at FE because FE wasnt around then in NAMBA as organized racing.
Another would be the use of the word Scale currently used in the FE Sport classes.
I could (I guess I am now) bring up that NAMBA loans up to $2000 for start up costs for a Nats to host an event. $1000 is paid at the beginning of the event and $1000 at the conclusion. The host club is supposed to pay $1.00 for every boat entered to NAMBA for hosting the Nats. Trophies are to be given three per sponsored class or one per five entries if there are more that 15 entries in a class.
..........and it is required to run a Kids R Boaters Too event for junior NAMBA members, free to the entrants and trophies are provided to all (youngest at a Nats was one week shy of two years old). Dave Rychalsky, the NAMBA Nats Chairman is putting together a Nats rule package but it is not aimed at FE. It can be used if FE wants but, I think that it will currently be suited more towards Nitro Nats. I do know that if he was contacted he would be more than happy to put a package together for the FE community so that there would be consistency year to year.
I was told before I went to the FE Nats that the FE community felt like they were being treated like a lost stepchild. That NAMBA didnt recognize them on the same level as nitro. Our take was that we couldnt get the FE community to step forward and get involved more. That has all now changed. The VP and Scale Unlimited chairman was at the Nats (myself), Dave Bestpitch who is the NAMBA Awards and Records Chairman was there. We both will be running for NAMBA President later in the year. Terry Davis is the new DD of District 2 and Doug Robichaud of District 4.
We now have good lines of communication and that is the best foundation we can work on. Both Dave and I will pass on our experiences to the BOD at the Nitro Nats in N.H.
In nitro there are 28 classes offered not including the Team Marathons, the DEEP VEE Offshore Classes, sometimes Open Twin Rigger is offered, and all of the Gas classes (around 17 could be offered not including any Offshore Classes). Only those with enough participation (5 minimum at a Nats) will run.
That is why Nitro requires a 7 day event.
Pagemaster,
you wont get flamed. The FE Nats committee wished that they would have had a Kids class. But they didnt know until Dave Bestpitch and I compared Nats notes with them. If you are talking about Jacob Hughey, fear not. He was the happiest kid on the planet in crackerbox. He came up to me hoping that he took third in the class. We checked it out and discovered that he did. Jacob's dad told us to have his trophy mailed to him. That wasnt good enough. Dennis Whitt found the trophy and it was given to Jacob before the Hughey family left. I think that Jacob used it as a pillow for the long drive home.
One last note if I havent put you to sleep already. There may be more nitro racers, but there are many more boats per FE racer. I can't possibly meet everyone at a Nitro Nats. I knew every entrant at the FE Nats by the end of four days. I like the latter.
Al Waters
NAMBA Vice President
NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman
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My turn.
Too many classes? Maybe.
Anounce the classes your going to offer at the NATS 6 months in advance. Make them have a local flare. N1 mono is a dud in MI but when the NATS go to Seattle you can bet the heats will be huge. Crackerbox and N1 hydro were nearly cut 6 months ago but we decided to keep them for the very reason Al discribed. The grin on somebodies face.
The guy that pics up the book and chooses a class before he builds a boat has got to be extremely rare. Most guys look into the boats before they think about racing.
The FE 1/8 scale runners we've seen are REALLY cool. BUT! I think you guys are making a mistake pushing FE 1/8 Scale into the book. There isn't enough interest yet IMO. The participation isn't there to support it yet. ECO anyone? Last year MI saw (5) 1/8 Scale entrees and this year we had more but in the end there were 8 boats on the water total. We pushed the heats so there would be only 4 boats in a flight. 5 of the 8 this year are existing from last year. So in a a year we pulled in THREE new boats.
Do the math with me now. 3 flights of FE 1/8 at MC5 and 6 flights of FE 1/8 at MC6. That's 9 heats total of electric powered 1/8 Scale Hydro nation wide in a year. Excluding Rogers experimentation ofcourse. Cool yes but worthy of inclusion in the rule book?
We also need to consider the fact that probably only 3 of the boats we've seen would have measured up to the exist "Unlimited" rules that we are talking about modifying to work for FE.
I'm not trying to be the wet blanket but we need to look at the big picture and not just the big boats. Right now we're running big boats. Not scale boats.
Build it and they will come is how we got ECO I'll bet.
Too many classes? Maybe.
Anounce the classes your going to offer at the NATS 6 months in advance. Make them have a local flare. N1 mono is a dud in MI but when the NATS go to Seattle you can bet the heats will be huge. Crackerbox and N1 hydro were nearly cut 6 months ago but we decided to keep them for the very reason Al discribed. The grin on somebodies face.
The guy that pics up the book and chooses a class before he builds a boat has got to be extremely rare. Most guys look into the boats before they think about racing.
The FE 1/8 scale runners we've seen are REALLY cool. BUT! I think you guys are making a mistake pushing FE 1/8 Scale into the book. There isn't enough interest yet IMO. The participation isn't there to support it yet. ECO anyone? Last year MI saw (5) 1/8 Scale entrees and this year we had more but in the end there were 8 boats on the water total. We pushed the heats so there would be only 4 boats in a flight. 5 of the 8 this year are existing from last year. So in a a year we pulled in THREE new boats.
Do the math with me now. 3 flights of FE 1/8 at MC5 and 6 flights of FE 1/8 at MC6. That's 9 heats total of electric powered 1/8 Scale Hydro nation wide in a year. Excluding Rogers experimentation ofcourse. Cool yes but worthy of inclusion in the rule book?
We also need to consider the fact that probably only 3 of the boats we've seen would have measured up to the exist "Unlimited" rules that we are talking about modifying to work for FE.
I'm not trying to be the wet blanket but we need to look at the big picture and not just the big boats. Right now we're running big boats. Not scale boats.
Build it and they will come is how we got ECO I'll bet.
Kevin Whitehead
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Al,
How stringently are 1/8th Scale boats teched at Nitro events? Having never been to a nitro 1/8th event, I have no idea how picky they are.
Is that "driver in the open cockpit" thing tightly adhered to?
It would be a shame to have an opportunity like that lost by having the FE 1/8th fall short by something so small as the driver detail. The couple of existing FE boats can have a more scale driver added, without too much agony. Better to take care of the detail ahead of time, rather than find out at a race.
KW
How stringently are 1/8th Scale boats teched at Nitro events? Having never been to a nitro 1/8th event, I have no idea how picky they are.
Is that "driver in the open cockpit" thing tightly adhered to?
It would be a shame to have an opportunity like that lost by having the FE 1/8th fall short by something so small as the driver detail. The couple of existing FE boats can have a more scale driver added, without too much agony. Better to take care of the detail ahead of time, rather than find out at a race.
KW
Kevin Whitehead
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Terry,
How do the numbers for S Offshore and T Offshore compare with 1/8th Scale numbers?
Are the very large scale offshore classes growing rapidly?
KW
How do the numbers for S Offshore and T Offshore compare with 1/8th Scale numbers?
Are the very large scale offshore classes growing rapidly?
KW
brooks93
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I love ya man but, I think your wrong.. the interest is there but, no rules for anyone to follow.. who wants to make a 2000+ dollar mistake in hull choice and setup.
Hey Al what about just making a slight change to what is already in the book for 1/8th scale.. no need to have it listed twice in the rule book.. all we need to do is add a section under the engine specification
example
ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS
1. The engine must conform to NAMBA Class C specifications.
2. Fast electric motor specs are class T. 24 to 32 cells or 8S to 10S Lithium Polymer cells
or just add a small section to outline the FE side of 1/8th. would be easier and would take up less room in the book
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brooks93 said:
AlanN
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OK so Terry you suck and we all know it but we'll cut you some slack.
1/8 is very cool and I know of 2 plus me who never thought we would but are seriously thinking about it. I already have the expensive electronics....need a hull.
So for the building challenged (Terry I ain't so hot at detail either) we're gonna introduce the 4X8 class. Any block o wood will do no can or cell limit. And it definitley won't be a scale class!
Seriously though,
I went to the NATS sweating out some things on my sport hulls. Thinking Al and Dave were gonna be major pr^%$s about detail. Turned out they just wanted to see some real racing. That's what it all boils down to.
Terry face it you know Kelly and he won't stop bugging everyone 'till it's done. Kinda like a pit bull.
So after talking to Doug R in a few mails we actually agree that we can disagree but think that we can introduce more classes and we need to reword the requirements for the club hosting the NATS. Sounds like a well intentioned start. Anymore from the gallery?
Terry $2000 mistake? Cmon we've wasted more than that to customers! :lol:
I wonder how much stainless I have scrapped over the yrs? ewww ouch!
1/8 is very cool and I know of 2 plus me who never thought we would but are seriously thinking about it. I already have the expensive electronics....need a hull.
So for the building challenged (Terry I ain't so hot at detail either) we're gonna introduce the 4X8 class. Any block o wood will do no can or cell limit. And it definitley won't be a scale class!
Seriously though,
I went to the NATS sweating out some things on my sport hulls. Thinking Al and Dave were gonna be major pr^%$s about detail. Turned out they just wanted to see some real racing. That's what it all boils down to.
Terry face it you know Kelly and he won't stop bugging everyone 'till it's done. Kinda like a pit bull.
So after talking to Doug R in a few mails we actually agree that we can disagree but think that we can introduce more classes and we need to reword the requirements for the club hosting the NATS. Sounds like a well intentioned start. Anymore from the gallery?
Terry $2000 mistake? Cmon we've wasted more than that to customers! :lol:
I wonder how much stainless I have scrapped over the yrs? ewww ouch!
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Oh, skipped one.
First time we ran the big offshore boats there were only three entries and there was just one class of 19+ cells. That was at MC4 (I think it was MC4). For MC5 there were 24 entries combined in S & T. For MC6 the two classes had 28 entries combined. Not a big increase in the past year but guys were having trouble carting so many boats. Well, that's the conclusion I came too. Doesn't mean I'm right.
Hey, I may be wrong on this 1/8 scale thing too. I just wanted to make sure you guys were thinking of the up and down sides. I really think the class is too small at this time to be able to go truely "scale".
haha! Who in FE is going tech these babies? We can't even agree on "sport" boats. Can you see the bickering with FE scale guys?
Al can look at a boat and know the color code is off. Can any FE guys? NOT
First time we ran the big offshore boats there were only three entries and there was just one class of 19+ cells. That was at MC4 (I think it was MC4). For MC5 there were 24 entries combined in S & T. For MC6 the two classes had 28 entries combined. Not a big increase in the past year but guys were having trouble carting so many boats. Well, that's the conclusion I came too. Doesn't mean I'm right.
Hey, I may be wrong on this 1/8 scale thing too. I just wanted to make sure you guys were thinking of the up and down sides. I really think the class is too small at this time to be able to go truely "scale".
haha! Who in FE is going tech these babies? We can't even agree on "sport" boats. Can you see the bickering with FE scale guys?
Al can look at a boat and know the color code is off. Can any FE guys? NOT
brooks93
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Dawn put Terry on the computer.. LMAO
you have the drawings of the boat on your desk how much help do you need for scale? I think you know enough people to help you get it running.
might be a bit early to get it in the books but, do we really want to wait till we have 30 of them and then put it in like we did with offshore?
Kevin Whitehead
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I think that is why Kelly wants to stay as close to nitro 1/8th rules as possible.T.S.Davis said:
Just need to find out what level of pickiness is normal in nitro.
No one is disallowed to race based on color tint accuracy. (At least that is what I think!)
Now, in concourse judging they might get gigged but, that's life. :lol:
KW
Dennis Whitt
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Well Terry all I can say is I havent heard anything but 8th scale sence the race.Drobie(who I do like more in person than on the web) was seiously considering my Bud I had up for sale.Ray fuller called me today asking about building one sence mine was sold.Roger Newton firmly believes as do I that there will probably be a some sort of FE 8th scale race next year.Hell even our own Mr conservative Ken Joye has 2 of these monsters.I say run with it and dont look back.We have tripped on something that is on the lips of most FE guys.Why ?Hell I dont know,I know one thing though.As any 8th scale driver will confess even at 45 to 50 miles an hour these things are a breeze to drive.A big boat like that almost lines itself up for a turn.
This is an entrance point for a nitro guy with an 8th scale and it is one that makes sence now.Yeah we still have some more to go but to me that is the most exciting part.No worries for me the nitro guys that convert to E power will have plenty of experience to share with us and I am sure they will be more than eager to do so. Kelly please we have many discussions about the rule book referencing us all over the place.Do up the rules for E 8th and make the changes and keep them in one spot.But I do agree use the rules that are their with T power.
Also remember Terry that there is a nitro 8th scale comunity in Flint.We should contact them and bring out our goodies.Could this be the thing that wakes up the local racing here this year ? or am I just dreaming ?
This is an entrance point for a nitro guy with an 8th scale and it is one that makes sence now.Yeah we still have some more to go but to me that is the most exciting part.No worries for me the nitro guys that convert to E power will have plenty of experience to share with us and I am sure they will be more than eager to do so. Kelly please we have many discussions about the rule book referencing us all over the place.Do up the rules for E 8th and make the changes and keep them in one spot.But I do agree use the rules that are their with T power.
Also remember Terry that there is a nitro 8th scale comunity in Flint.We should contact them and bring out our goodies.Could this be the thing that wakes up the local racing here this year ? or am I just dreaming ?
brooks93
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KW you are correct.. boats are allowed to race but, won't fair to well in concourse
from what I understand from Al.. concourse is the only time a boat being a couple shades off what it was suppose to be would have a problem.. If you look at the nitro rules you are suppose to have a picture of the real boat.. now anyone can look at a picture and someones boat and say yep that looks like it.. now if someone showed up with a black budwiser boat I think there would be a problem unless they had a picture. I am getting cd sent to me with pictures of almost all the boats out there that is used in judging.
drobie
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As long as Dennis and I are getting along, I'll agree with him. LOL
The nitro gateway is a big reason.
Why the fascination? We all do this for a lot of reasons. Some are competitive, some like to build, others are fascinated with the electronic aspect. But I think a common bond between all of is that we like toys.
And these are the biggest toys.
I too think it's early, but if someone wants to run with it, I'll vote for it.
However (Alan), I want an alternative power option. Clubs should definitely have the option to run these with drill motors. LOL
The nitro gateway is a big reason.
Why the fascination? We all do this for a lot of reasons. Some are competitive, some like to build, others are fascinated with the electronic aspect. But I think a common bond between all of is that we like toys.
And these are the biggest toys.
I too think it's early, but if someone wants to run with it, I'll vote for it.
However (Alan), I want an alternative power option. Clubs should definitely have the option to run these with drill motors. LOL
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