FE 1/8th scale make it a legal class or not

[drobie]

Hey Drobie...lets drop LSO
Not trying to be mean but its a club racing thing to me. Not a Nats comp.

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Yeah, and should we drop LSH too?

The membership voted it in by a wide margin. Talk to them.

I don't take offense, am all for 1/8 scale as a class and was tempted to buy Dennis' boat, but you want to make a healthy wager on whether LSO or 1/8 scale has the biggest number of entries at the next Nats?

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Yeah, and should we drop LSH too?

Yes, LSH (Ladies Sport Hydro) isn't drawing the ladies, like we thought it would.

On the 1/8th Scale front:

I think that it should be an official class.

I also think that the present list of official Electric classes needs a serious culling. Let's clear out the dead wood and simplify the class structure, for the newcomers benefit, if nothing else.

How many of the 2005 Nats entries were actually measured by the owner (or anyone) to insure that the hull complied with the Scale Roster (available on the NAMBA website)?

I'm betting ZERO. Hopefully, none are outside the limits.

At least two boats have a helmet glued on a cowling, representing a driver. The Scale rules say that a driver is required (in open cockpits). Just pointing out that there still is work to do, even for those already competing in the class.

KW

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hey Dougie-mon,

but you want to make a healthy wager on whether LSO or 1/8 scale has the biggest number of entries at the next Nats?

Yes, I'll take the wager. LSO is okay by me but given the option of running LSO or P-Offshore the nod goes to the P boat. I'm also for trimming up the classes, Eco???? Give me a break, I'm not even sure I know anyone with one. That is about a lame excuse of a class I've ever heard. Crackerbox, I'd hate to see it go because I like the class but I wouldn't stop it from being nixed. (and I'm the C-Box National Champion) N1 Hydro another waist off time. All the O classes can be dropped as far as I'm concerned.

Paul.

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Hey Dougie-mon,

but you want to make a healthy wager on whether LSO or 1/8 scale has the biggest number of entries at the next Nats?

Yes, I'll take the wager. LSO is okay by me but given the option of running LSO or P-Offshore the nod goes to the P boat. I'm also for trimming up the classes, Eco???? Give me a break, I'm not even sure I know anyone with one. That is about a lame excuse of a class I've ever heard. Crackerbox, I'd hate to see it go because I like the class but I wouldn't stop it from being nixed. (and I'm the C-Box National Champion) N1 Hydro another waist off time. All the O classes can be dropped as far as I'm concerned.

Paul.

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What's the origin of the ECO name? Economical or ecological? WTF? :lol:

Hey, if N2 Sport Hydro was an official class, anyone wanting to run a class similar to the O classes, could just slide over to the corresponding N2 class.

I would say that the N2 Sport Hydros run at the 2005 Nats, were running as good as the O Sport Hydros of just 5 years ago. There was some sweet speed there.

If I am correct, the voltage levels of the next generation of battery technology will pretty much line up the power classes in approx. 6 volt steps. This will likely lead to the ends of the O's.

Somebody is going to get their toes stepped on, in the near future. :angry:

I have run 4 cell hydro for years but, I will confess that it is DEAD. I would gladly see the 4's go, if the class structure would gain simplicity.

Same goes for N1 Hydro. And OPC isn't on very solid ground, for that matter.

KW

 

[drobie]

I agree with most of Paul's post, but there are host of other opinions.

Another option is simply to not run any classes at the Nats unless they have a set number of minimum entries (like 10 if they're a new class and 15 if 2 years or older). The least popular classes would weed themselves out.

Try to be a little objective. Unofficially, the least popular classes at MC6 (in ascending order)?

Less than 10 boats:

ECO (wasn't even run)

S Hydro

N1 Hydro

Cbox

10-15 boats:

P Spec OPC ("club class", brand new)

S Mono (10)

T Offshore

1/8 Scale

Q Hydro

Q/S Sport (15)

By far, the most popular classes are still 6 and 12 cell. Closest to them was Q Offshore, 8th most popular, next was Q Mono, 14th place.

Top 5? P Offshore (37), P Sport (35), LSH (34), O Sport (34), N2 Mono (32)

If popularity of classes were organized into 3 broad categories, entries numbers look like this in order of popularity with the first group the most popular.

1. 6-12 cell Sport and monos

2. Riggers and 18 cell classes

3. High cell count classes

 

[Darin Jordan]

All the O classes can be dropped as far as I'm concerned.
Paul.

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WHAT??? I don't know how things are in your neck of the woods... but "O"-sport Hydro (1/16th Sport Scale??) is one of our clubs most popular classes... I think we had to run three flights at the last race to fit everyone in...

Is this not the case across the country???

 

[AlanN]

I am in full agreement with the dropping of C box n1 hydro eco...yes lso and lsh...I know that you are basing your decision on popularity(Doug) but that is not the way I feel it should be handled. Guys race it cuz they can....we could channel some of that into other classes. 4 cells blah never have never will.

It would hurt me majorly but the O classes should go too. I love my sport hydro and mono but being a realist the times have changed....8 cells were for racers yrs ago when 6 cells just wasn't pumping their blood fast enough. I don't think thats the case now.

Base line Doug....I just don't think that the "popular" or fad stuff should be the only basis for these decisions. We discussed the drill motor classes in the pits and I think you know where I am coming from.

Sorry to hi jack the post KB...but we gotta get this sorted out sooner or later.

 

[AlanN]

Darin NO!

Why not try the same hull with 6 cells....you see 8 cells is starting to become a dinosaur. reason stated above.

 

[drobie]

I am in full agreement with the dropping of C box n1 hydro  eco...yes lso and lsh...I know that you are basing your decision on popularity(Doug) but that is not the way I feel it should be handled.  Guys race it cuz they can....we could channel some of that into other classes.

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Alan,

I can't even begin to go to where you're coming from.

"Tell me what you want and I'll give you what you need?" "If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you?"

"Guys race cuz they can", but your position has me assuming that you want to build a national organization around racing classes that they can't?

Geez man, we gotta get out and see a little more of the country.

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

M-2 Mono and M-2 Hydro were also "wasn't even run".

OPC isn't new. The "gentleman's agreement" to use Limited Speed motors doesn't warrant calling it a new (less than 2 yr old) class.

Are the numbers you used, Doug, from registation or from actual participation? There are usually enough drops by racetime to make the registration data useless for any accurate analysis. For example: I keep thinking that only 9 OPC boats actually competed. That is only one class, of many, that I cannot remember how many started.

Darin, how would you handle the voltage difference that LiPo cells (or some other technology) would bring to the classes? If the voltages of the new cell packs would make logical steps similar to 6-12-18-24 volts, how would you fit the O classes in? If new motors would be needed, would you still want the O level of classes?

KW

P.S. A good thread hijacking never hurt anybody.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Darin, how would you handle the voltage difference that LiPo cells (or some other technology) would bring to the classes? If the voltages of the new cell packs would make  logical steps similar to 6-12-18-24 volts, how would you fit the O classes in? If new motors would be needed, would you still want the O level of classes?
KW

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Is this what this has come to??? Are we making classing decisions on battery technology that is only just coming on the scene and hasn't really made it to the mainstream yet?? Or, is it mainstream??? I ask because I really don't know...

You guys are just NOW talking about using 1/8th scale as a way to "introduce" Li-Po bats... Now we are talking about dropping O-classes due to this technology...

I believe in planning for the future, but the point here is that 8-cell classes are alive and well here in the NW... Is that because we are slow to respond to technology, or because it's a great class just the way it is??

Are ALL of our classes going to Li-Po in the future? Is the REALLY the direction that ALL classes will be going?? Does that mean that NiMH will no longer be available? Can classes work that allow the use of both?? Could O rules, which currently allow UP TO 8-cells work with 6-volt LiPo vs. 8-cell NiMH??? Are we going to have to completly replace all of our current electronics in order to utilize these new cells? (that would suck!)

I guess these are the kinds of questions I'd be asking before just condeming the classes... because you are talking about a LOT of boats from what I've seen...

ALL of that being said, I don't think I'd have a problem with converting my 8-cell hydros to 6-cells, and my O-Mono to N2 Mono... but that's because those are the only three boats I currently have running... They'd all just go a little slower... If that's the way things go, that's the way they go...

 

[brooks93]

ok you guys work on all of the rules I am goign to work on 1.. LOL

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Darin,

The only reason I mentioned dropping the O classes (which I do race in BTW) is that it's an odd cell count #1, it is also a battery killer #2, and it's harder on equipment than any other class. You really have to turn the wick up in the O classes and that is one of the things I don't like about it, pushing everything to its limit to win.

Keep in mind these are all just thoughts, I go with the flow.

Also, in the 1/8th scale class I really don't think Lipo powered boats have ANY advantage over NiMh powered rigs. I'll be sticking with sub-Cs in my 1/8th, if a guy want's to run Lipos I say bring it on.

Change will be coming in batteries, it's just a matter of time. Same thing goes with sub-Cs, first the 2400s then the 3300s then the 3700s now the 3800s so on so forth. Are you keeping up with the ever changing battery tech? Cost you a bundle to do so. I lost close to a G note in equipment at the Nats, others lost more. It's the nature of the beast guys.

Paul.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Hi Darin,
The only reason I mentioned dropping the O classes (which I do race in BTW) is that it's an odd cell count #1,

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Thanks Paul...

The odd cell count is certainly one of those things that mucks things up... Have to build special packs just for this class that can't really be used in others...

I can definately see both sides... And, some of us here have been wanting to put together an N2 Sport class to run the Finlay and similiar style hulls in, so if this is where things are going, I'm game...! My current hull (highly modified Robbe Colt) is only 20.5" long, so it may work out better with 6-cells as opposed to 8... It's tough to cram those 8-cells in there!

I'll stay tuned and be ready to go with the flow...

Now, back to your regularly scheduled 1/8th scale programming, already in progress!

B)

 

[AlanN]

Look before this thread gets all wishy washy like the others...starting to go there already....It's hard to convey one's thoughts without the others from gettin all bent out of shape or thinking that its a personal vendetta against you.

1 Doug R

700 drill motors do not constitute a class....the hull and batts do. As I said to you face to face "great for club racing but not for national classes" You want a spec class then everyone runs the same hull prop motor. No variences at all.

Polls/registration It's a chess game guys. Not a popularity contest. Doug you just don't get where I'm coming from and I really don't want to start a fight. I raced 700 cans in my Taifun 10yrs ago...its just a resurging fad(LSH). I know many like it but aside from different hulls it has nowhere to go in developing better racing.

Darin I ran one hull in N O and P mono. It wasn't a prob. Your only limited your own mind if you let yourself be that way. Also My N2 sport could easily work on 8 too. I am not saying don't run it but I wouldn't heavily invest in 8 cells either. Paul knows and has seen the future. Even if Lipos arent the next batt...bound to be something else will. I have seen 3 different chemistry in my time of racing. It would be ignorant to think that there aren't ever going to be more changes or new tech that we have not heard of.

Oh and it wasn't here but i have discussed dropping 8 cells with many other racers just not on a public forum. Most of the long time racers I spoke with agree on that.

 

[drobie]

OPC isn't new. The "gentleman's agreement" to use Limited Speed motors doesn't warrant calling it a new (less than 2 yr old) class.
Are the numbers you used, Doug, from registation or from actual participation? There are usually enough drops by racetime to make the registration data useless for any accurate analysis.  For example: I keep thinking that only 9 OPC boats actually competed. That is only one class, of many, that I cannot remember how many started.

P.S. A good thread hijacking never hurt anybody.

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Registration numbers, Kevin, but they're close enough to use for this. If a guy registers for a class, he probably has and runs the boat.

Darin, relax; the O classes aren't going anywhere...nor is LSH or LSO. Alan voiced a personal opinion and as off the wall as it is (LOL), it's just one opinion (as is mine and everyone elses).

Changes are voted in by the entire membership.

 

[drobie]

Doug you just don't get where I'm coming from and I really don't want to start a fight.

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Alan I do get where you're coming from, we just disagree.

That's cool with me and there won't be any fights over it and if you took any part of my posts as a personal attack, I apologize that I crossed the line.

 

[AlanN]

Nope never did Doug.

That's part of what was so cool about last week.

We get to see and talk face to face.

I respect your opinion.

It's just so difficult to discuss on the net sometimes.

Alan

 

[Pagemaster]

Why all the talk of cutting classes? Because of the long race days during the nats? If so, when do you seasoned&traveling racers think we will see another race with 60 racers and a ton of boats? If we pull 60 racers to the 2006 nats in New Jersey than I say we are seeing a growth in the racing circuit and need class thinning. If not it was maybe it was just the right time and right place in MI in 2005.

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Why all the talk of cutting classes? Because of the long race days during the nats? If so, when do you seasoned&traveling racers think we will see another race with 60 racers and a ton of boats? If we pull 60 racers to the 2006 nats in New Jersey than I say we are seeing a growth in the racing circuit and need class thinning. If not it was maybe it was just the right time and right place in MI in 2005.

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"All the talk" of cutting classes because of several reasons.

1. Because of "all the talk" of adding classes. How many classes are enough classes? I'm for adding some classes. I just think that eliminating the dead classes (ECO, M-2, etc) to make room would be smart. We are only talking about having to offer them at Nats races. Local clubs will do as they desire.

It seems whacky to insist that M-2 classes be offered at the Nats when the only people who are tinkering with the classes are 2-3 SAW guys. Let the SAW guys continue, if they like. Just reword the rules so that those classes are not required to be offered as heat racing classes at the Nats. That is an alternative to eliminating those classes.

2. The real problem comes on the local race level. If we have a 30 class menu and you hold a two day race, who gets shafted? (sorry for the boating pun).

Would it be good for the race portion of the hobby (the only part we are talking about) to have a newcomer look at what the legal classes are, focus his or her energy on putting together a boat for one class, and then find that the only local, large-scale race of the year cannot carry that class because the 29 other classes have more entries? I don't think so.

3. Coming cell chemistry may dictate class changes.

Steve, you seem to be crediting the number of available classes with the high turnout at the Nats. How would you come to that conclusion? The turnout is the direct result of the location. A central location to at least six moderately-sized FE comunities, with no major dividers such as mountain ranges or deserts to overcome. Presto! Onehellofanelectric gathering!

I don't think that the 2005 Nats turnout reflects much in the way growth. There were not many racers there that had never raced at a sizeable race before. It wasn't a whole bunch of new racers. It was a whole bunch of established regional and club-level racers who finally got a Nats race within a reasonable travel distance of their homes.

We would be collectively smart as a FE community to insure that the Midwest gets another Nats opportunity in the near future. Before the energy dissipates. The huge turnouts can be used to build growth, we just have to take advantage of the momentum.

KW