Outboard rules and class ideas needed

[lohring]

Im not sure I understand the "need" or requirement for a virtical transom. I have seen Johns boat and this was what came to front of mind when it came up. Just as a for instance my Full size Fralick hyroplane has a tilted transom..

I also could care less in the open tunnel classes what lower is used,, Home made from pop bottle and popcille sticks is fine with me.. Or some CNC master crafted one off.

Im not sure any of this needs updating. Im just not seeing a "trend" or trends blasting the current rules.

Grim

Without the vertical transom rule you get boats like Mike Bontoft's A OB hydro record holder. I haven't seen a rush to build boats like this, though.

Lohring Miller

 

[RonShaw]

See below......

 

[dion smith]

Thanks Lohring!

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

I would also like to invite anyone to send me any rule ideas they may have. Lets make Outboard racing grow and have fun.

Here are a couple of observations from a fellow model tunnel boat enthusiast.

From reading previous posts, there is no question that IMPBA's Sport 20 Tunnel is the most popular model tunnel boat class. In NAMBA, A OPC(20 Stock Tunnel) is the most popular tunnel class. Everything needed to participate in these two classes is readily available. Using the Tower Hobbies catalog for a source, I did a "Shopping Cart" for requisite components to put a 20 Tunnel on the water.

The cost was nearly $900. That's a considerable expenditure in light of today's economic conditions. In addition to what many would consider a rather steep entry cost, considerable time will need to be spent to master the skill sets of tuning and racing a model tunnel boat. Time and money, two precious commodities to many people.

It's possible to obtain used equipment at a lower price, but more often than not such equipment is being sold by an individual exiting the sport. So, there is no net gain. As far as participation in model tunnel boating, I can only speak from what I have observed in the Northwest. Back in the mid-80 it was not uncommon to have 15 20 Stock Tunnels at a race. Now, 5 or 6 is considered a good turnout.

Things change, people adapt, life goes on.

JD

 

[Joey Jones]

Jerry, that is very well put. I think I have right around $1K in my totally-stock tunnel. After reading this thread, I've often pondered if I should just put it up for sale. First, the 2 major ruling bodies is a severe turn-off. Second, look at all the pissing and whining that has gone on above. Good Lord, what have I gotten into!?

I've mostly concentrated on IMPBA rules, since I plan to run with those awesome folks in Huntsville. However, after reading this thread, I've realized that the rules are one thing...what isn't in the rules is totally another. Here I am, building a 100% stock tunnel, expecting to compete. I read this thread, and find out that you can modify the internals of the engine! WTF!

Yeah, I'm not so sure about this anymore.

So, to end my whining and get back on the thread topic, I think a re-wording may be in order. Pure-stock. That's what us newbies know, and can get. We can get the hulls, and engines. It's easy. If that sticks, we may go on to other classes. Purely my opinions, as a newbie.

-JB

 

[RonShaw]

Without the vertical transom rule you get boats like Mike Bontoft's A OB hydro record holder. I haven't seen a rush to build boats like this, though.

Lohring Miller

Lohring,

Great post. That is exactly what we are seeing in our outboard tunnel classes in the Southeast, and just one of the reasons for wanting to define outboards once and for all, in NAMBA and IMPBA. Hopefully the pic Lohring posted will help everyone understand. If YOU showed up with an outboard tunnel, typical K&B, OS, Lawless Nitro or Gas Lower unit, mounted to the transom as an outboard should be, at a NAMBA or IMPBA Sanctioned race anywhere else in the world, and someone showed up with a hull and lower/powerhead assembly like the one Lohring posted above, sometimes on a flat turntable mounted to the floor of the hull, transom removed, inset inside boat as much as 8-10" from rear of sponsons, tunnel top extending several inches behind the motor back to where the transom used to be, what would be your thoughts?

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

Without the vertical transom rule you get boats like Mike Bontoft's A OB hydro record holder. I haven't seen a rush to build boats like this, though.

Lohring Miller

Lohring,

Great post. That is exactly what we are seeing in our outboard tunnel classes in the Southeast, and just one of the reasons for wanting to define outboards once and for all, in NAMBA and IMPBA. Hopefully the pic Lohring posted will help everyone understand. If YOU showed up with an outboard tunnel, typical K&B, OS, Lawless Nitro or Gas Lower unit, mounted to the transom as an outboard should be, at a NAMBA or IMPBA Sanctioned race anywhere else in the world, and someone showed up with a hull and lower/powerhead assembly like the one Lohring posted above, sometimes on a flat turntable mounted to the floor of the hull, transom removed, inset inside boat as much as 8-10" from rear of sponsons, tunnel top extending several inches behind the motor back to where the transom used to be, what would be your thoughts?

When I saw it, my thought was, "****, that's pretty ingenious." Not being all that innovative, I suppose that's why I stick to stock classes.

JD

 

[Grimracer]

Jerry, that is very well put. I think I have right around $1K in my totally-stock tunnel. After reading this thread, I've often pondered if I should just put it up for sale. First, the 2 major ruling bodies is a severe turn-off. Second, look at all the pissing and whining that has gone on above. Good Lord, what have I gotten into!?

I've mostly concentrated on IMPBA rules, since I plan to run with those awesome folks in Huntsville. However, after reading this thread, I've realized that the rules are one thing...what isn't in the rules is totally another. Here I am, building a 100% stock tunnel, expecting to compete. I read this thread, and find out that you can modify the internals of the engine! WTF!

Yeah, I'm not so sure about this anymore.

So, to end my whining and get back on the thread topic, I think a re-wording may be in order. Pure-stock. That's what us newbies know, and can get. We can get the hulls, and engines. It's easy. If that sticks, we may go on to other classes. Purely my opinions, as a newbie.

-JB

JB.. DO NOT BUY INTO THE "MOD THE ENIGINE" deal.. Its NOT NEEDED.. Don't follow that mind set. My motors are NOT MODED in ANY WAY. Unless you feel removing a head shim is a mod..

They do the sport class boogie with the best of them..

Grim

 

[Duck899]

Outboard tunnels is not only about the engine. There is a ton to gain in the prop. Set up of the hull is very important. Driving is another intangible. Hull design is another important aspect. One thing to remember is as far as I know, IMPBA uses go-no go gauges for intake and exhaust. there is a limited amount of intake and exhaust, mod all you want. Namba runs box stock engines. The OS is very consistant from what I have seen. I took mine out of the box, removed the plug and flushed some fuel through it and broke it in at the nationals on a new never run Lynx tunnel. A Sholund X-637 lynx cut prop. I set it up exactly as per Carls instructions and found I needed a couple degrees of positive angle in Salt Lake and it ran great. I just kept tweaking the needle a click or two and ended up second in stock and won the mod class. Mind you there were not a lot of boats there, but I have ran Leecrafts with stock K&B goldheads and the Lynx was plenty fast by the time A-mod tunnel came up on Friday. The mod tunnels with pipes were not much faster when they were chasing me. If the rules are working in IMPBA now like they do in Namba, then I see no need to change. Its just model boat racing, have fun, get out there and promote the hobby, keep the rules to a minimum.

 

[Joey Jones]

Jerry, that is very well put. I think I have right around $1K in my totally-stock tunnel. After reading this thread, I've often pondered if I should just put it up for sale. First, the 2 major ruling bodies is a severe turn-off. Second, look at all the pissing and whining that has gone on above. Good Lord, what have I gotten into!?

I've mostly concentrated on IMPBA rules, since I plan to run with those awesome folks in Huntsville. However, after reading this thread, I've realized that the rules are one thing...what isn't in the rules is totally another. Here I am, building a 100% stock tunnel, expecting to compete. I read this thread, and find out that you can modify the internals of the engine! WTF!

Yeah, I'm not so sure about this anymore.

So, to end my whining and get back on the thread topic, I think a re-wording may be in order. Pure-stock. That's what us newbies know, and can get. We can get the hulls, and engines. It's easy. If that sticks, we may go on to other classes. Purely my opinions, as a newbie.

-JB

JB.. DO NOT BUY INTO THE "MOD THE ENIGINE" deal.. Its NOT NEEDED.. Don't follow that mind set. My motors are NOT MODED in ANY WAY. Unless you feel removing a head shim is a mod..

They do the sport class boogie with the best of them..

Grim

Thanks, Grim. No, I 'm not following any specific mindset, I just don't think that I should have to mod my engine. I think that's what you're getting at, and I apprecaite it! I want a "no BS bone-stock" class. I thought that was what I was getting into. After reading this thread..and the rules...again (for the hundreth time), I see that I was very lax in my research. Shame on me. I should know better, right?

-JB

 

[Bob Kensill]

In 1996 I wrote a set of rules for a .21 stock outboard tunnel class. It isn't a matter of just tearing down a motor and making sure everything is stock, you have to make sure that all the parts belong on that model. It is not as big of a problem on an OS, because there are only two versions of their motor. On the K&B outboards, there are several different models. You can mix and match parts to make a great running outboard, but it is not legal because it was not offered for sale , by the manufacturer, in that configuration. I'm not sure how NAMBA polices this problem. Maybe someone from that organization will post the answer.

 

[Duck899]

You can mix parts on the K&B. Section 2E of the rules reads;

For the stock classes, the engine’s parts must remain as originally

manufactured for that brand, size, and style engine. No modifications are

permitted. Interchanging of parts from one series or edition to another is legal

as long as the parts used were made by the manufacturer of the engine and

were used on their outboard engines.I don't think it really mattered though as the latest version (air cooled gold head) was the best of the K&B. The OS even better and thus the migration over to the OS. I think its better to just keep the engine box stock as we do in Namba and have a teardown if required at a national event. It has worked for as long as the outboards have been available and its simple. True, some guys who had access to the K&B factory and an unlimited supply of pistons and sleeves could build a very powerfull stock engine. But, I have seen guys with off the shelf engines from the local hobby shop place well in racing as well.

 

[Bob Kensill]

Thanks for the stock class info. I guess this means you can put parts off the new OS outboard on to the older version?

 

[Duck899]

yes, my OS was the water cooled version, I just bought the new muffler and air cooled head.

 

[moparbarn]

I thought IMPBA rules stated no mixing of air & watercooled parts in b sport? that will be hard to police..........

 

[julianconde]

After reading this thread, I've often pondered if I should just put it up for sale. look at all the pissing and whining that has gone on above. Good Lord..

Without the vertical transom rule you get boats like Mike Bontoft's A OB hydro record holder. I haven't seen a rush to build boats like this, though.

Lohring Miller

Lohring,

Great post. That is exactly what we are seeing in our outboard tunnel classes in the Southeast, and just one of the reasons for wanting to define outboards once and for all, in NAMBA and IMPBA. Hopefully the pic Lohring posted will help everyone understand. If YOU showed up with an outboard tunnel, typical K&B, OS, Lawless Nitro or Gas Lower unit, mounted to the transom as an outboard should be, at a NAMBA or IMPBA Sanctioned race anywhere else in the world, and someone showed up with a hull and lower/powerhead assembly like the one Lohring posted above, sometimes on a flat turntable mounted to the floor of the hull, transom removed, inset inside boat as much as 8-10" from rear of sponsons, tunnel top extending several inches behind the motor back to where the transom used to be, what would be your thoughts?

My Thoughts are in Bold letters above. Ron if you are saying that John Ottos Tunnel did not influence you all this BS about defining what a Outboard tunnel ??

Whats are my Thoughts about the set up its legal mounted on the transom, engine and lower turn as a unit (together) and the engines sits outside the boat.. Regardless id it sits 8 inches from where the original transom is guess what its mounted on the transom of the tunnel.

we never had a problem about these custom lower units from anyone until you came back to racing no one else has complained (that Im aware of it was never protested in a race).

If you want a Tunnel to look the the real ones then propose a scale tunnel class other than that if the stuff is not broken leave it alone.. my thoughts and opinion now back to the thread.

Julian

 

[lohring]

I would also like to invite anyone to send me any rule ideas they may have. Lets make Outboard racing grow and have fun.

Here are a couple of observations from a fellow model tunnel boat enthusiast.

From reading previous posts, there is no question that IMPBA's Sport 20 Tunnel is the most popular model tunnel boat class. In NAMBA, A OPC(20 Stock Tunnel) is the most popular tunnel class. Everything needed to participate in these two classes is readily available. Using the Tower Hobbies catalog for a source, I did a "Shopping Cart" for requisite components to put a 20 Tunnel on the water.

The cost was nearly $900. That's a considerable expenditure in light of today's economic conditions. In addition to what many would consider a rather steep entry cost, considerable time will need to be spent to master the skill sets of tuning and racing a model tunnel boat. Time and money, two precious commodities to many people.

It's possible to obtain used equipment at a lower price, but more often than not such equipment is being sold by an individual exiting the sport. So, there is no net gain. As far as participation in model tunnel boating, I can only speak from what I have observed in the Northwest. Back in the mid-80 it was not uncommon to have 15 20 Stock Tunnels at a race. Now, 5 or 6 is considered a good turnout.

Things change, people adapt, life goes on.

JD

I'm not sure if Jerry included accessories or a radio system, but let's look at the cost of a P spec tunnel.

TS3 - $120

Battery - $77

ESC - $50

Motor - $80

OS lower - $170 (Proboat lower - $108 no adapter req'd)

Adapter - $36

Connectors - $8

Basic boat - about $550, less than $500 w/ Proboat lower

Proboat Stiletto RTR - $340 (why doesn't Tower make a TS3 RTR)

Tactic radio - $65

Servo - $47 (could easily go cheaper)

Charger - $40 (lots of choices)

Total start up cost - about $500 to $700

Not cheap, but there's been a little inflation since K&B died. If a racer started in electric cars, all he(or she) would need is the boat.

Lohring Miller

 

[RonShaw]

After reading this thread, I've often pondered if I should just put it up for sale. look at all the pissing and whining that has gone on above. Good Lord..

Without the vertical transom rule you get boats like Mike Bontoft's A OB hydro record holder. I haven't seen a rush to build boats like this, though.

Lohring Miller

Lohring,

Great post. That is exactly what we are seeing in our outboard tunnel classes in the Southeast, and just one of the reasons for wanting to define outboards once and for all, in NAMBA and IMPBA. Hopefully the pic Lohring posted will help everyone understand. If YOU showed up with an outboard tunnel, typical K&B, OS, Lawless Nitro or Gas Lower unit, mounted to the transom as an outboard should be, at a NAMBA or IMPBA Sanctioned race anywhere else in the world, and someone showed up with a hull and lower/powerhead assembly like the one Lohring posted above, sometimes on a flat turntable mounted to the floor of the hull, transom removed, inset inside boat as much as 8-10" from rear of sponsons, tunnel top extending several inches behind the motor back to where the transom used to be, what would be your thoughts?

My Thoughts are in Bold letters above. Ron if you are saying that John Ottos Tunnel did not influence you all this BS about defining what a Outboard tunnel ??

Whats are my Thoughts about the set up its legal mounted on the transom, engine and lower turn as a unit (together) and the engines sits outside the boat.. Regardless id it sits 8 inches from where the original transom is guess what its mounted on the transom of the tunnel.

we never had a problem about these custom lower units from anyone until you came back to racing no one else has complained (that Im aware of it was never protested in a race).

If you want a Tunnel to look the the real ones then propose a scale tunnel class other than that if the stuff is not broken leave it alone.. my thoughts and opinion now back to the thread.

Julian

Thanks Julian. Glad now you are out of tunnels as your statement above really doesnt deserve a response, but, the "leave it alone" mentality is what got us here. The rouge lowers are only a part of one of the problems, but its interesting how you focused on that one area, and just want everyone to turn their heads and have no kahunas to speak up, for fear they will upset the apple cart or piss someone off. The rules as they are have too many holes, but hopefully Bob's thread will help gather valuable info to help us get all of these holes plugged once and for all. Thank goodness most IMPBA and NAMBA boaters across the country don't share your "good ole buddy" attitude Julian, and will appreciate what we are trying to accomplish and leave the "side bar" comments offline. Hopefully we can get this thread back on topic as there are lots of grest ideas and feedback. Thanks.

 

[Bob Kensill]

Julian

My intent when I started this topic was to establish some guidelines to help me formulate some rules for the newer classes that are run in various areas of the country. Mod VP, Kneeler, Super Stock, electric and Gas Outboard Tunnel are needing some input by drivers as to what they want for rules. I would also like our IMPBA rules to match their NAMBA counterparts. I am the IMPBA National Outboard Director and Ron Shaw is the NAMBA National Outboard Director. We may not always agree, but we will do what is best for model boat racing. I know that we will not be able to please everybody, but we will try to be as fair as possible. I welcome all ideas from anyone that thinks they can be of any help.

Bob Kensill

 

[Kris Flynn]

Sounds like they want your head Ron