Nitro Survey

[MarkScott]

Run 65% Wild Cat fuel in all motors - .21 .to .82... Cost for me is cheap since I go right to the source - just under $21 for a gallon of 65%..

Mark..

 

[Don Ferrette]

Well for what it's worth the MAC84 that I went 108 with last fall at SAW was also my heat racing motor. Ran last year, all this season (we race just about every other weekend including club races) & I decided to treat motor to new bearings last week. I ran the crap out of that 84 on 60% with 15% (70% & 12% at trials) of the Kart oil & the inside still looked fine when I took it apart. For those of you that think castor is saving your engines you might want to look a little deeper into it.............. :blink:

 

[Preston_Hall]

Brad,
Could you explain why you would decrease the oil content?

After just doing some calculations and thinking about fuel mixes I can see why the higher the nitro content the less % oil you need as nitro is not the combusted propulsion liquid and the methanol is.

It seems that you would always need the same oil percentage. To aide in the oxidation of the nitro due to decreased methanol you would have to increase temperatures or compression. It seems. :unsure:

Or.......................you could use the not-so-mentioned oxidizing additive. Ah, let's see who wins the prize behind door #1. This additive is very explosive at most ambient temperatures and you need only a couple ounces per gallon.

Yes it is just that I can see chemically and mathematically why less % of oil would be needed with the higher nitro percentages.

The richer needle setting that we all run on higher percentages of nitro is because there is less methanol in the fuel compared to oil and this compensates.

So the way I'm seeing it now I will make a couple of custom blends. At 40% nitro levels I will stick with 18% oil and at 50% nitro I will go to 15% oil.

Just on the hunt now for some really good synthetic oil available in Australia..

Brad,

I agree that mathematically you would have to decrease oil content if you desired to increase nitro and keep the meth the same. However, I disagree that you should ever decrease the amount of oil you run. Nitro and meth percentages change the burn of the engine but the oil content should stay the same. Perhaps you should experiment with heat and head clearances to compensate for nitro and meth changes. I still don't understand why you say less oil is needed with higher nitro percentages. No matter how much nitro and/or meth you run the engine still requires a certain amount of lubrication at a given rpm.

In your case I don't think lowering your oil content is going to hurt anything since you run high levels in the first place.

My two cents.

 

[Don Ferrette]

one thing you are missing by not running castor is that you can remove some of the taper in the liner and castor oil will end crease the compressing.

This is kind of a band aid approach I was referring to. We've played with altered tapers & such to reduce drag & found that the same gains were achieved by superior lubrication of synthetics without the associated "issues" like piston cocking in bore, wrist pin breakage, rod/pin/crankpin misalignments which lead to .... engine failures.

 

[EatMyShortsRacing]

"For instance.... In Australia almost every boater that has tried cool power has ended up with blown engines... myself included. Dont take the risk here!!!"
Well I'd sure like to know what you guys are doing wrong or what motors your blowing up. The 2 cycle Kart racing oil has been perfect for us, NO engine failures. it's also REAL easy to blame the oil when an engine fails. A better oil will allow more power & more RPM perhaps reaching the mechanical limits on a particular engine. (like the Picco's & OPS motors failed instantly at a certain RPM level) How is it we can run 12% (or less) of this very oil at record trials & not lose a single motor??? Can't think of a more stressful way to run an engine than record trials.

Don,

Things are different down here.... and for some strange reason Cool Power doesnt work for us.... too many experienced boaters tried it and didnt like it. Most lost engines thru it. Now you can make any claims you like on the oil but we are not novice boaters and we had problems... easiest way to avoid those problems... dont use the oil!!!!

We didnt have the same problems with EDL, Klotz, NEO, F1 Booster (not sure what this stuff really was but at $50 a litre it was lucky we only needed 6% in the fuel - with no other oils!!!)

Yes I did say 6% and we could run it as low as 3% for races..... yet cool power at 15% with or without 5% castor said kaboom!!!!!

Stuff may work well for carts and maybe planes and cars.... but not Aussie boats...

 

[Josh784]

I bought some 40% O'Donnell fuel from Tower. I believe it is designed for cars, but it has 18% oil content. Would this be safe to use in the 20 mono I am building?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[Don Ferrette]

I bought some 40% O'Donnell fuel from Tower. I believe it is designed for cars, but it has 18% oil content. Would this be safe to use in the 20 mono I am building?
Thanks,

Josh

You should be fine.

 

[Don Ferrette]

"Things are different down here.... and for some strange reason Cool Power doesnt work for us.... too many experienced boaters tried it and didnt like it. Most lost engines thru it. Now you can make any claims you like on the oil but we are not novice boaters and we had problems... easiest way to avoid those problems... dont use the oil!!!!"

Craig, let me ask again.......... what engines were you guys blowing up?????????

 

[EatMyShortsRacing]

"Things are different down here.... and for some strange reason Cool Power doesnt work for us.... too many experienced boaters tried it and didnt like it. Most lost engines thru it. Now you can make any claims you like on the oil but we are not novice boaters and we had problems... easiest way to avoid those problems... dont use the oil!!!!"
Craig, let me ask again.......... what engines were you guys blowing up?????????

Don,

Personally lost a Picco P67 (pre exr), OPS 45, CMB ABC 45 and 2 CMB 90 p/ls . Also know of 2 OPS 67s, OPS 80, OPS 90, and 4 or 5 other CMB 90 p/l failures. (Probably more failures escape my memory or were attributed to other problems).

My only stretch of losing multiple engines in a short time and 2 very experienced racers had the same stretch at the same time using the same fuel...... Changed oil only and blow ups went away..... May be coincidence but everyone else I have talked to in Australia has had similar experiences when trying cool power.

Since then I think I have blown three engines total and that would be over 6 years ago... and I do have a lot of engines.... 4 x 21s, 3 x 45s, 2 x 67s, 4 x 90s and 1 x 100s are my race motors not including runabouts and outboards....

Funny coz my car runs cool power and has had no dramas whatsoever.....

May be our water reacts to cool power????

On the other hand (personal opinion only) I believe NEO is the best I have tried here in Australia and if it didnt stain boats like it does I would use a higher content and probably lose the klotz and maybe even most of the castor. All my engines were running on 15% oil (50/50 NEO and Castor) for some time with no noticeable engine wear or failures. I was going to play with the idea of running 10% NEO only in a 'disposeable' engine to see whether it made any noticeable difference but I havent seen the need to push the boundaries and change setups on so many engines to take the new blend. I think better gains are available elsewhere (like learning how to drive properly!!! A bit out of touch recently) before trying to extract a little extra out of the engines....

As I said before, I am pretty sure NEO here is actually UC LB625. Both stain boats and both turn black in sunlight...

 

[BradV]

Brad,
Could you explain why you would decrease the oil content?

After just doing some calculations and thinking about fuel mixes I can see why the higher the nitro content the less % oil you need as nitro is not the combusted propulsion liquid and the methanol is.

It seems that you would always need the same oil percentage. To aide in the oxidation of the nitro due to decreased methanol you would have to increase temperatures or compression. It seems. :unsure:

Or.......................you could use the not-so-mentioned oxidizing additive. Ah, let's see who wins the prize behind door #1. This additive is very explosive at most ambient temperatures and you need only a couple ounces per gallon.

Yes it is just that I can see chemically and mathematically why less % of oil would be needed with the higher nitro percentages.

The richer needle setting that we all run on higher percentages of nitro is because there is less methanol in the fuel compared to oil and this compensates.

So the way I'm seeing it now I will make a couple of custom blends. At 40% nitro levels I will stick with 18% oil and at 50% nitro I will go to 15% oil.

Just on the hunt now for some really good synthetic oil available in Australia..

Brad,

I agree that mathematically you would have to decrease oil content if you desired to increase nitro and keep the meth the same. However, I disagree that you should ever decrease the amount of oil you run. Nitro and meth percentages change the burn of the engine but the oil content should stay the same. Perhaps you should experiment with heat and head clearances to compensate for nitro and meth changes. I still don't understand why you say less oil is needed with higher nitro percentages. No matter how much nitro and/or meth you run the engine still requires a certain amount of lubrication at a given rpm.

In your case I don't think lowering your oil content is going to hurt anything since you run high levels in the first place.

My two cents.

The total amount of oil being put through the motor is increased as the methanol % is reduced (realtive to the nitro because which is being increased in %) because of the richer needle setting.

So it is not a fixed amount of oil as you say, but more oil is available to the motor as you go to higher and higher nitro percentages.

So I maintain that it becomes safer to run less % oil at the higher nitro percentages.

Either way I'm not going to go lower than 13% so I should still be within safe limits...

At the moment trying to see if I can get some FHS oil you guys are using over there shipped here. Far as I can tell it's the best stuff available.

 

[EatMyShortsRacing]

The total amount of oil being put through the motor is increased as the methanol % is reduced (realtive to the nitro because which is being increased in %) because of the richer needle setting.

So it is not a fixed amount of oil as you say, but more oil is available to the motor as you go to higher and higher nitro percentages.

So I maintain that it becomes safer to run less % oil at the higher nitro percentages.

Either way I'm not going to go lower than 13% so I should still be within safe limits...

At the moment trying to see if I can get some FHS oil you guys are using over there shipped here. Far as I can tell it's the best stuff available.

Hmmm well I wont knock you for trying different oils, but Klotz is very popular and available in Australia.... Castor (yes I am going to ignore the castor knockers because all the statements so far have not proved that castor does not protect your engine and despite all the 'experiments' people still run part castor and still go fast) should not be ignored, and also NEO is available in Australia (prepare to stain your boats but IMHO the best oil available for boats. As I have said I believe it is UC LB625 which is the same oil in O'Donnell fuel and reported by Davis and Ackermann as one of the best oils on the market.

Also cutting from 18% to 15%... why??? The small gain you may make in totally exotic fuels pales into insignificance with other gains to be made elsewhere... The more standard your fuel is, the more likely you can borrow fuel from someone else if you run out.... And have one blend for all your boats, not a blend for 21s, another for 45s etc.... I tried racing like that and all I can say is MAYHEM and MADNESS!!!! I am back to one or two blends at the most.

Seems you are expending a lot of energy in a direction that is not going to give you return on your investment.... look elsewhere like pipe, prop and boat setup.... and DRIVING!!! Driving is the single biggest advantage (and the cheapest) you can have racing....

 

[Don Ferrette]

Personally lost a Picco P67 (pre exr), OPS 45, CMB ABC 45 and 2 CMB 90 p/ls .  Also know of 2 OPS 67s, OPS 80, OPS 90, and 4 or 5 other CMB 90 p/l failures.  (Probably more failures escape my memory or were attributed to other problems).

Well I can say that the motors you listed need/needed higher levels of lubrication and/or castor for the following reasons-

Picco's- famous for sticking pistons in liners typically ripping wrist pin out of piston & traveling like shrapnel thru a motor. I will say for the short time I ran Picco's I ran 20% oil to try to keep them alive & lived with the the notion that every run was potentially it's last.

OPS- we refer to them as OOPS as in oops there went another one. I can't tell how many I've seen turn into grenades over the years regardless of what oil was in them. The 67 motor for example was awesome when you added the Aeromarine drum rotor conversion but the motor expired over 23k every time like throwing a switch. Higher oil content extended the life of OPS motors ......briefly.

CMB- I've run LOTS of these & still consider them to be great motors. However, some of the 45's had machining tolerance errors & the AAC 90 liners were an absolute disaster. And we lived thru the rather large batch of bad needle bearings that found thier way into many CMB motors. I still modify the CMB cam motor drums for people to aid in lubricating the rod needles which is something you need to watch on those motors.

I personally believe that if your lucky enough to run motors that are properly fit with no known "issues" then the band aid can be removed. B)

 

[EatMyShortsRacing]

Well I can say that the motors you listed need/needed higher levels of lubrication and/or castor for the following reasons-
Picco's- famous for sticking pistons in liners typically ripping wrist pin out of piston & traveling like shrapnel thru a motor. I will say for the short time I ran Picco's I ran 20% oil to try to keep them alive & lived with the the notion that every run was potentially it's last.

OPS- we refer to them as OOPS as in oops there went another one. I can't tell how many I've seen turn into grenades over the years regardless of what oil was in them. The 67 motor for example was awesome when you added the Aeromarine drum rotor conversion but the motor expired over 23k every time like throwing a switch. Higher oil content extended the life of OPS motors ......briefly.

CMB- I've run LOTS of these & still consider them to be great motors. However, some of the 45's had machining tolerance errors & the AAC 90 liners were an absolute disaster. And we lived thru the rather large batch of bad needle bearings that found thier way into many CMB motors. I still modify the CMB cam motor drums for people to aid in lubricating the rod needles which is something you need to watch on those motors.

I personally believe that if your lucky enough to run motors that are properly fit with no known "issues" then the band aid can be removed. B)

Don,

I really dont want to count how many engines I have had but suffice to say many more than most see in a lifetime. Some of those engines that blew were new, some not so new. But they all went at the same time for a number of us and the failures before and after that period were few and far between. We know (and knew then) all the weaknesses of the engines and how to mod them to keep them alive. The CMBs that blew were all pre EVO engines. The OPS and Picco engines all had RPM rods and they had been fitted and this was pre EXR Picco which didnt have the sticking piston problems.... too much of a coincidence

 

[Don Ferrette]

I guess what it really boils down to is what speed does someone find satisfying enough?? Many people would be & are content with say a 50 mph 20 hydro or a 65 mph 80 hydro, I am not. In the quest for more speed & power you ultimately uncover flaws & limitations in given engines. There are engines out there I will not run simply because they cannot deliver what I expect. Currently I'm fortunate enough to be running ones that can get it done without said failures or hours of Dremel work. Bottom line is how fast does one want to go?

 

[gil sonsino]

Hi Craig

Also here in downsouth(Brazil) using only synthetics lubes failures were a disaster for lot of people.... burning Cool power or other brands.

Making my own fuel for years using Klotz Thecniplate even running some engines to extremes limits never had any kind of failure due to the lack of lube. .And when I say running hard I mean 113.2mph on my Mac 84 at our last saw event and after a carefull inpection all internal parts are still in perfect shape.

Buddies like Ackerman,Davis ,Finch and other great boaters still running their babies using the old school oil so there must be more than a simple preference.

Well as member of it and with all my engines lasting for years I DO know that 's not a mere coincidence.

Gill

 

[Don Ferrette]

Gil-

John Finch is my racing partner & I mix his fuel. B)

 

[gil sonsino]

Sorry Don

Maybe nowadays but from what I know he used to run castor years ago.

Gill

 

[Preston_Hall]

So it is not a fixed amount of oil as you say, but more oil is available to the motor as you go to higher and higher nitro percentages.

Brad,

Actually it is a fixed amount of oil. It isn't fixed relative to nitro % but it is a fixed amount relative to the amount of fuel that goes through your engine. And that's what matters.

Put another way..................If the engine is turning 25,000rpm then there is a certain volume flow rate of fuel. Of which you have an oil content fo a given percentage. Now if you change the meth and niro percentages and still turn 25,000 rpm then you obviously need the same amount of oil to keep the engine lubricated the same as with the previous fuel.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Sorry  Don Maybe nowadays but from what I know he used to run castor years ago.

Gill

Yup & if you ask him he'll be the first to tell you it was to try to make the OPS & Picco motors he ran stay together a little longer. And THAT is the whole point, years ago the oils were just not as good ..........

 

[K-ZAM]

[the AAC 90 liners were an absolute disaster.

2 year old CMB ACC .90 engine. 3 out of town races and 19 passes over 80 mph in my seaducer at record trials.

80% nitro, 8% oil, 5% meth, and 7% ??

I would hate to have a good engine

Kentley Porter