FE 1/8th scale make it a legal class or not

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Ken,

You said,

IMPBA? (Why Bother)

I said'

I will build my boats to IMPBA specs, they say the drive dog can't extend past the transom. I wan't my boats to comply with both Orgs, this way given the opportunity I can race either/or.

That's why I bother.

Paul.

 

[Don Ferrette]

The rule was created to keep the Nitro boats from over elongating the strut, if that be the case the boat won't look scale therefore making it a standout for possible disqualification. The rule is redundant and doesn't need to be there. If you want to open the doors to the Newbees and Nitro guys less is better.

I don't see how its redundent

"8. The number of props and rudders shall coincide with that of the original full sized unlimited

hydroplane.

9. Outdrive units and outdrive engine(s) are prohibited unless the full sized boat after which the

boat is being modeled had an outdrive or outdrive engine(s), in which case the model must

be configured like the full sized boat."

It doesn't say anything about how a strut should look or how scale it would need to be.. Only talks about the ones hanging off of the transom.

I would say leave it.. Whats it going to hurt.. A newbie isn't going to know any better and a nitro guy will be used to it already.

Ken where is your drive dog on your boat? I never really looked at it that close

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Ther reason for this rule is there were unlimiteds that had more than one prop including one with four outboards.

 

[brooks93]

well after getting home to 7 emails and 2 pms it seems its 9 to 1 for the drive dog rules as is.. Sorry Ken but, it looks like everyone that has them or is or will be building want the drive dog rule.

Now let me ask you guys about heats.. do we want 3 heats or 3 heats with the top 2 finishers in each heat going to a main for a winner take 1, 2, and 3.

I personally would like to leave it like the rest of FE..

PS.. I also built my boat to the IMPBA drive dog rule

 

[Randy Naylor]

well after getting home to 7 emails and 2 pms it seems its 9 to 1 for the drive dog rules as is.. Sorry Ken but, it looks like everyone that has them or is or will be building want the drive dog rule.
Now let me ask you guys about heats.. do we want 3 heats or 3 heats with the top 2 finishers in each heat going to a main for a winner take 1, 2, and 3.

I personally would like to leave it like the rest of FE..

PS.. I also built my boat to the IMPBA drive dog rule

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Is it possable to have either? In Seattle and Alaska they did the 3 heats with the top 2 finishers in each heat going to a main for a winner take 1, 2, and 3. and that was fun. Then in cali., fl. and MI it was 3 heats. leave it up to the CD and how much time is avaiable.

 

[brooks93]

I think I would rather keep it to 3 heats and points so it could be used in high points and to stay in line with all other class's of FE. I guess you could always run another heat for bragging rights

 

[Randy Naylor]

I think I would rather keep it to 3 heats and points so it could be used in high points and to stay in line with all other class's of FE.  I guess you could always run another heat for bragging rights

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High points is based on total points aquired in the class little more adding but I like both. what do other think?

 

[eddieh]

Thoughts on concourse.....

Ken you know I love scale, but I personally think the rules should stay as they are, because in this instance , and others as with the drive dog, the look and feel should be the same as the nitro guys if you want them to come and play, the whole is more important then the parts if what I am trying to say comes out right... as I said these are racing boats first and scale models second otherwise you would have to start looking at the hardware , turn fins etc and I really don't think you want to go down that road... In my scale club we have a judging sheet which might not be a bad idea to use when doing concourse , except base it on the namba rules, this way a guy has a reference where he can improve his boat.. in our club (bear in mind I am not suggesting this I already said they should remain the same and I truly truly love scale and craftsmanship)

the possible points are to the right for instance a molded vacu formed hull you get 1 point, you modified it 2 points, semi scratch 2 points scratchbuilt 5 points so on and so forth.. this is just for examples and how my club judges, there are more categories but you get the idea.... again, I say leave as is, but if you want suggestions here is some.

first category kit modified kit semi scratch scratchbuilt

1. Hull Const

a.)molded/vac formed 1 2 2 5

b.)f.g. chop spray 1 2 2 6

c.) skin on frame 2 3 3 7

d. plank on frame 3 4 4 8

e. hand laid FG 1 2 2 10

2. deck const

a.)molded/vac formed 1 2 2 7

b.)f.g. chop spray 1 2 2 8

c.) sheet plastic 1 2 2 9

d.) laminated FG sheet 4 5 5 11

e. plank on frame 5 6 6 12

f. hand laid FG 1 2 2 13

3. fittings

a. acurately scaled 1 2 3 4

b. properly finished 1 2 3 4

c. attention to detail 1 2 3 4

4. accessories

a. acurately scaled 1 2 3 4

b. properly finished 1 2 3 4

c. attention to detail 1 2 3 4

5. fittings and accessories % scartchbuilt

0-25% 1pt 26-49% 2 Pt, 50 -74% 3 pt, 75%-100% 4 pts

paint and finish

appropriate (colour, gloss, etc) 1 2 3 4

paint uniformity/application 1 2 3 4

edges borders 1 2 3 4

waterline 1 2 3 4

6. final detailing

figures 1 2 3 4

weathering 1 2 3 4

graphics 1 2 3 4

interior spaces 1 2 3 4

documentation 1 2 3 4

 

[brooks93]

I don't like what you have Eddie just because the scratch built have to much of a advantage.. Granted there is more work but, for people like me that can not build out of wood to save our lives its not fair. Now I can finish and detail a hull and if mine looks as good as everyone elses why should I be docked because I had a epoxy glass hull with a ton of pin holes and seams to sand.

already something like that in the rules already. Here is how it reads now in the Nitro 1/8th scale rules

SCALE CONCOURS JUDGING

1. All boats are to be judged from six feet off (stand off scale). A picture must be supplied to

the contest director for each boat entered in the concours judging.

2. Any boat entering the concours judging must, at a minimum, start one heat of the race in

order to be eligible for the concours award.

3. Judging will be based upon a point system as follows:

a. Documentation

1. 0-20 points - Photograph(s)/Presentation

b. General Appearance

1. 0-10 points - Workmanship

2. 0-10 points - Engine, exhaust, and radio gear concealment

c. Detail

1. 0-10 points - Engine/cowl detail

2. 0-10 points - Driver detail

3. 0-10 points - Cockpit detail

c. Paint Job, Markings, Etc.

1. 0-10 points - True colors

2. 0-10 points - Scale of markings, decals, lines, numbers

3. 0-10 points - Overall finish

 

[eddieh]

KELLY < I hear what you are saying, and those are just examples of my clubs point scale, I am all for leaving things the way they are actually, but I do think that scratchbuilding should have more points, ok you may not be able to build, (now) and if there is no goal (read carrot) to lear how or do so you never will... I can't drive, and I really no nothing about setting up a hydro, is there an easier course for people like me? no , but there is self pride and I will be determined to race better, and bring a better set up next time, see what I am saying... does it make sense? you want to see a bunch of different hydros you need to make it attractive to build one, cause there are only so many hulls being Manufactured... again think of the whole not all the parts, same for hardware drivers, etc etc the more guys do the more they can share.... and makes the hobby better as a whole....

besides concourse isn't that important after being at the nats I'd rather be waxing another boat then sitting on the sideline waxing my own hahahahahahahahaha

just kidding but ya know what I mean..

 

[brooks93]

I'd rather be waxing another boat then sitting on the sideline waxing my own hahahahahahahahaha

I like to do both.. LOL

my point is with the way you had it a scratch built hull might not look as good as mine but, because of the point offset would win.. Is that the spirt of concourse

remember that concourse is a show of race boats not model boats.

in a scale model club I would totally agree with you eddie.

I would also say that on water performance should have some points.. some people can build fast boats and some can build pretty boats but, not to many can do both.

 

[eddieh]

Kelly , AGreed I think performance should be measured and should count too, and the disparity between kit, semi kit, scratch can be levelled out, I think leave the rules as you have drafted, then use a multiple, ie kit x 1, semi kit, x 1.25, semi scratch 1.5, scratchbuilt 1.75 or maybe add 10 pts at the end, and the same for performance 10 pts, in our club we want to encourage building and skill developing so the scratchbuilt is a little heavy, leave scratchbuilding out for the moment what if it were the other way there were no scratchbuilt boats, say you bought your hull, then painted it and added details, even if you use the sticka machine those details are considered from scratch, now another guy went to hydros is us and bought a ready to run miss budweiser , even the decals were on it, he shows up to, and puts it in concourse, you get a few more points then he because you have done something...and put more effort in to it, you deserve the win if you have done a good job, the points in my club are the Max you can be awarded on that point, if I cut a block of wood , paint it red and use crayolas to letter it I am not deserving of the full amount of scratchbuilt points it would be deserving of none... in practice in our club, a well executed kit, with some personalization can be on par with a mediocre scratchbuilt, if you think about it, yes you bought your hull, but you cut the window opening (modified kit) you applied the decals (scratch built points) articulated airfoils, (scratchbuilt accessories points) added mirrors... etc etc.. see what I mean... it will be up to the judges, granted not every event will have someone with Al, Pete, Roger, Don F's knowledge, (that'd be nice though ) . I believe concourse is more for how the boat looks , their is another trophy for how it runs, it should be considered but not a deciding factor..

funny thing we are chatting away about this and I already said leave it the way it is , go figure....

 

[brooks93]

LOL I know you said that but, I like to nag sometimes. Your just like a women you always need the last word.. LOL or is that me..

Eddie I like to hear all sides and make my mind up from that.. so by going back and forth with you i have learned more about what you where saying and actually agree with you know that you broke it down for me in the last post.. So it was worth the time..

But,, LOL

for the sake of keeping everything the same as the nitro guys and thus making is more likely for people to jump into FE from nitor or the other way around. I will be leaving it unless everyone wants it changed then I will make the change as everyone see's fit.

I am not writing the rules for myself but, for everyone so to me everyones opinion is important.. I am just the worker bee.. LOL

I have a note pad and I put little tick marks next to a subject so by responding your are basicly voting.. That way I can see where the majority stands.

 

[Al Waters]

This is one area where you will have no problem in deciding with your FE rules. A nitro boater running FE will not have a problem in going with your rules. I think that the change for an FE boater to follow the 4 qualifying heats, Connie and Winner Take All Final would be too much of a change.

It would pretty disruptive to the way FE races have been run in years past.

.............and also because you place such a high priority on Team Points, Individual Points, Mr. Offshore, etc.

Al Waters

NAMBA Vice President

NAMBA Scale Unlimited Chairman

 

[K.R.Joye]

O'k guys i give whatever........When the time comes i'll vote. Thanks (Why do i even bother)

 

[Don Ferrette]

"I would also say that on water performance should have some points.. some people can build fast boats and some can build pretty boats but, not to many can do both."

You guys better hope I don't convert my 1/8th scales to FE. :lol:

Seriously keep your race points & Concours points totally seperate other than needing at least one start for Concours qualifying. B)

"Kelly , AGreed I think performance should be measured and should count too, and the disparity between kit, semi kit, scratch can be levelled out, I think leave the rules as you have drafted, then use a multiple, ie kit x 1, semi kit, x 1.25, semi scratch 1.5, scratchbuilt 1.75 or maybe add 10 pts at the end, and the same for performance 10 pts..."

I'll totally disagree with this one. I have seen good & bad examples of scratch built & glass boats. BOTH can be a royal pain in the a$$ sometimes. Ya want an example, go read my on-going Smokin' Joe's build up- https://www.intlwaters.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=77

So don't assume that a glass hull, or "kit" as you call it is easier, MANY times that is not the case. My '86 Miller American was wood & that was easier than a few of the 'glass hulls I've done. I take great pride in how my scale boats look & will not hesistate taking the extra steps to have a first rate hull both in looks AND performance. It doesn't matter wether it's wood or glass, what makes a Concours winner is the EFFORT one puts forth, like wet sanding the clear down to 2000 grit before you hand buff it (can you say mirror finish). The single biggest thing with doing a scale hull in my opinion is not getting in the rush to finish it when you are getting close. That extra effort in the tail end of building either a glass or wood boat makes the difference & I've got a wall full of Concours AND race trophies to prove it.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Ken,

O'k guys i give whatever........When the time comes i'll vote. Thanks (Why do i even bother)

Your opinions matter, that's why you should bother. The whole point of keeping the drive dog rule is to keep in line with the nirto boats. I don't know about you but if a nitro 1/8th scale race invited me (running FE) to sign up I'd jump all over it. That is quite frankly one of my big goals, FE and Nitro running together in 1/8th scale. Change the rules and that won't happen.

That same reason is why I'm signed up for the IMPBA Internats. This is the VERY FIRST time FE boats will be allowed to run with nitro and gas boats in the same heats! We're not talking a club race, it's the Internats. I didn't lobby for inclusion in the open classes for my health. I want to show that our FE boats aren't just for kids anymore and I'm willing to play by their rules.

Paul.

 

[brooks93]

getting close guys now a big question.. the offical course.

what do you guys want to do for a course.. size and dimensions

 

[eddieh]

"It doesn't matter wether it's wood or glass, what makes a Concours winner is the EFFORT one puts forth, like wet sanding the clear down to 2000 grit before you hand buff it (can you say mirror finish). The single biggest thing with doing a scale hull in my opinion is not getting in the rush to finish it when you are getting close. That extra effort in the tail end of building either a glass or wood boat makes the difference & I've got a wall full of Concours AND race trophies to prove it. 

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Don we are on the same page 2000 grit huh, your my kinda guy LOL....ya know they make some powders that will go down to 4000 , anyway off topic, your correct that a poorly made kit can be just as hard as starting from scratch, in our club we would know what the pitfalls were for the guy building, and we would say call it semi scratchbuilt... anyway I also posted I was for mirroring the nitro rules, this was just chatting... hope to see some of your boats in person someday.... I'd love to talk about some different rubbing compounds ( I have been using 3m fine cut) again sorry off topic,

kelly , excuse the naive question how much bigger is a nitro course to what we had at the nats? and as roger is already racing against nitro shouldn't it be the same course? perhaps the extra buoys and stuff could be used in the big off shore classes too? I dunno....

 

[brooks93]

eddie not real sure what the size was.. but, I think the nitro course is 330 straights 70 turns but, I don't know for sure

Al or Don whats the size of the nitro 1/8th course

 

[Dennis Whitt]

Hey guys,Why dont we just run FE8th as it is being run in nitro.We can always go back and change things that need changing.I say we should just try it first.Hell after lugging those huge things around having an extra heat in there would make it worth it