Electric Rules

[Bill Brandt]

Keep it coming buddy! Let me know when youre done please.

 

[T.S.Davis]

You need me to call it the way guys are really seeing it or have ya got that figured on yer own?

 

[Don Ferrette]

I do have an honest question. You mentioned that clubs could continue doing what they've always done locally. Yep.....they sure could. Why didn't you guys do just that? Instead of cramming it down the throats of guys that actually do travel to national events? Makes no sense at all.

Exactly.

Oh I don't think it was malicious. Just ignorant. You could have guys cheating but you would never know. Label reads right so it's right.

Yup. A couple crisp benjamins is all it takes to custom wind that 850kv 1.5Y. Take the label off while it's still new (super easy), send it back in to rewind, put the label back on when it gets back, instant advantage yet visibly unchanged and the label still says 1.5Y. And since a certain overly vocal supporter of this loves to spout off formulas and calculations here's some numbers (kept on the conservative side) to chew on- 850kv @ 85% efficiency 8S using 3.7V per cell 57mm prop @ 20% slippage calculated speed is 51mph. Rewind that same motor to lets say 975kv (a modest bump) with same efficiency, voltage, prop size and slippage and your calculated speed is now 58mph...............

 

[photohoward1]

Just my observation but 57mm Prop? What pitch? 1.2, 1.4, 1.6 I could keep going. Did they actually say Octura 457? If they did can't we pitch it up? What about the New ABC Props? I have many 57mm props all with Varying Nominal Pitch Specs. (and I'm only talking Octura x457 props)

I have been out of the 1/8th game for a while but I was one of the original guys back in 2006 that ran.

 

[Bill Brandt]

57 mm is rule. Cut down larger props and cupping and back cutting and modding and modding is all allowed. That’s where we’re finding speed.

 

[Darin Jordan]

How are you going to tech all this?

Rhetorical Question. Having been round and round with the P-LTD rules, which still don't have a valid resolution, I already know the answer.

What a nightmare...

 

[photohoward1]

57 mm is rule. Cut down larger props and cupping and back cutting and modding and modding is all allowed. That’s where we’re finding speed.

i f you can use any pitch why bother with limiting the diameter? Put. 2057 if the set-up can handle it. That’s just ignorant. If you spec a prop you should spec Nominal pitch. Not diameter.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bill Brandt]

How are you going to tech all this?

Rhetorical Question. Having been round and round with the P-LTD rules, which still don't have a valid resolution, I already know the answer.

What a nightmare...

You win nothing when you cheat! You win nothing but a trophy when you win period. It’s supposed to be a fun hobby with friends. We don’t tech. There’s nothing in rules about teching. If you cheat and it surfaces, you’re disqualified and in my mind never to be trusted again. We’ve been racing for years now with these rules and we’re having a great time. And Darin, I don’t ever remember seeing you run FE 1/8 Scale anywhere so why do you even care?

 

[Bill Brandt]

Bill Brandt, on 16 May 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

57 mm is rule. Cut down larger props and cupping and back cutting and modding and modding is all allowed. That’s where we’re finding speed.

i f you can use any pitch why bother with limiting the diameter? Put. 2057 if the set-up can handle it. That’s just ignorant. If you spec a prop you should spec Nominal pitch. Not diameter.

Response

We wrote the rule to give some guidance to help racers not to just go out and burn up equipment. By the way what 1/8 Scale FE do you race and where?

 

[raptor347]

Bill,

You don't tech? So you really don't know if your rules actually work. You've never checked to see if they were being followed in your own club. I would say your multi year experience with the success of your rule set is invalid

 

[raptor347]

How are you going to tech all this?

Rhetorical Question. Having been round and round with the P-LTD rules, which still don't have a valid resolution, I already know the answer.

What a nightmare...

You win nothing when you cheat! You win nothing but a trophy when you win period. It’s supposed to be a fun hobby with friends. We don’t tech. There’s nothing in rules about teching. If you cheat and it surfaces, you’re disqualified and in my mind never to be trusted again. We’ve been racing for years now with these rules and we’re having a great time. And Darin, I don’t ever remember seeing you run FE 1/8 Scale anywhere so why do you even care?

Teching IS a big deal for nationals and time trials.

 

[photohoward1]

Bill Brandt, on 16 May 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

57 mm is rule. Cut down larger props and cupping and back cutting and modding and modding is all allowed. That’s where we’re finding speed.

i f you can use any pitch why bother with limiting the diameter? Put. 2057 if the set-up can handle it. That’s just ignorant. If you spec a prop you should spec Nominal pitch. Not diameter.

Response

We wrote the rule to give some guidance to help racers not to just go out and burn up equipment. By the way what 1/8 Scale FE do you race and where?

i was one of the originators of ⅛ with the Michigan guys. Been participating in FE for 26 years. Was one of the first guys to run brushless and the first guy to run Lipos in the country. A few of us were sponsored by FlightPower. We traveled and spread good will to the FE RC world. Your right I don’t run ⅛ anymore. Too expensive and got tired of other guys recking my boats. That doesn’t disqualify me from voicing what is good for the hobby. Bill your on the wrong side of history here. You just built a wall between the two sanctioning bodies. Too bad.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Looks to me like this thread is going to be nothing but an argument so maybe it should be just locked down

 

[Doug Smock]

IMO the next proposal submitted to the BOD should be a complete rewrite of section seven in the rulebook. The BOD needs to have options on how proposals are handled. Including a procedure to promote discussion among elected officials to seriously consider the effect proposals such as this one have on the ENTIRE membership. It's obvious that didn't happen on this one, and that's a shame. Some long time FE racers including the NAMBA FE Chairman have raised VERY good points here. I'm surprised how quickly these guys are dismissed.

If you'd like some ideas on how to better serve the ENTIRE membership check out article 8.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/6d8054fd8fca82f7a51da4c1d52d572a?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Again just my opinion. Dismiss it too if you'd like.

See you at the pond fellas.

View attachment 44917

 

[Mikemalloy]

I can understand doing tech at a national event, when you have guys traveling from all over. But for our club racing it's not an issue we don't have shady people in the club. We don't have secrets, all our boats are open to everyone in the club and for the most part run all the same equipment. If a fellow racer has an issue more than likely a couple of us will have something for them to keep racing that day. Raptor347 I met you a few years back at the Northwest Scale Championship race that Marty S put on. We had a good conversation and you saw our boats U-21 Albert LEE, and one of the Formulas U5 I believe, but anyways there was no Tech at that race and no issues. I mean if someone needs to win that bad and cheat they are only going to hurt themselves in the long run.

I'm no prop expert by any means, but I have learned that 57mm Octura,Prather,ABC,Andy Brown,ect... in the 1/8 scale hydro class works great. and there are different pitches of props in that 57mm category available to help tune a boat, depending on the boat some like alot of pitch others very little, so IMO there would be no reason for us to put a limit on pitch in 1/8 scale hydro. However the ESC will let you know if the prop was to big and or had to much pitch anyways...POOOF!

All I want to do is go race my toy boats and have a good time with my fellow racers, and welcome anyone to come race.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

IMO the next proposal submitted to the BOD should be a complete rewrite of section seven in the rulebook. The BOD needs to have options on how proposals are handled. Including a procedure to promote discussion among elected officials to seriously consider the effect proposals such as this one have on the ENTIRE membership. It's obvious that didn't happen on this one, and that's a shame. Some long time FE racers including the NAMBA FE Chairman have raised VERY good points here. I'm surprised how quickly these guys are dismissed.

If you'd like some ideas on how to better serve the ENTIRE membership check out article 8.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/6d8054fd8fca82f7a51da4c1d52d572a?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Again just my opinion. Dismiss it too if you'd like.

See you at the pond fellas.

Doug,

I see where you're going with this and, all in all, I like the thought. The only issue I have is that you've linked the IMPBA Constitution, something that isn't applicable to anyone that is a NAMBA member.

As I see it, the real issue isn't the way the new rule was voted in as much as how it restricts what can be used in the drive system. Unlike nitro scales, where the engine size is limited and fuel can be any percentage of nitro the owner wants to use, the FE scale rule now limits your motor choices as well as how much fuel(i.e. watts, volts or amps, depending on how you want to read it) you can feed into it. This almost sounds like the Ford/Chevy/Dodge arguments that have gone on for decades.

 

[Doug Smock]

One last thing from me on the teching thing and I'll do my best leave this to the resident experts.

In my best estimation a technical inspection isn't in place to catch you with an illegal model. A technical inspection is a tool to allow a CD (or inspector) to prove you are legal in the event you are protested, and certainly eligibile for a record. Rules that can't be teched are worthless. The racer nor the contest official has a leg to stand on.

The honor system simply will not fly if you expect the record book to have any integrity. That's the point Brian and Darin were trying to make and quickly found themselves on the curb. SMH They know a little something about this topic fellas!

I'm assuming that without a finite tech procedure the current FE 1/8 scale records will be archived and the class will no longer be eligible for records?
There weren't any protests at club level so we don't expect any at the Nats.?

Just throwing it out there guys, dismiss at will.

See ya at the pond!

 

[Mike Hughes]

Well when 2 laps roll around in the fall, I hope none of you guys come out. Without a way to tech you, then how am I suppose to sign off on any record.

Fun, fun, fun........

Mike

 

[Doug Smock]

Doug,

I see where you're going with this and, all in all, I like the thought. The only issue I have is that you've linked the IMPBA Constitution, something that isn't applicable to anyone that is a NAMBA member.

I understand Mark.

I was just hoping it might stir some thought on how things could be done a bit differently and limit the chance of this happening again. Not bashing NAMBA or saying the IMPBA has a perfect procedure. I just think the BOD could use some teeth, let them figure out these things, that's all. Make em do the job they aren't getting paid for!! lol

Changes like this could happen to any fuel source, any hull type, the way the amendment procedure and voting works.

I hate this kind of crap personally, really do!! No noise is good noise, with the exception of those IC engines of course.

I'm going to go before I wear out my welcome. I have a tendency to do that.

 

[T.S.Davis]

"However the ESC will let you know if the prop was to big and or had to much pitch anyways...POOOF"
Just get one of those 600 amp speedos. They're on the shelf everywhere. Sarcasm again. I can't help myself. I'm like a junky.

So you guys never tech'd any of your boats, claimed 3 years of wedded bliss, and sold that to the membership................ummmmm......what? So the rules that are well and truly un-techable have never been tech'd by the guys that wrote the rule............because nobody knows how. Faith based rules. Sure why not. bahahahahahah..........................bahahahahaha.......................bahahahahaha..................................................................................................oh owe.....my sides hurt.

You should have included a rule that required the bearings be lubricated with the souls of dead spiders. Also not technically verifiable but meh.....nobody's going to check anyway so no matter.

Sorry to have so much fun at NAMBA's expense fellas. NAMBA has some really really good people. People I have a TON of respect for. Guys I would put up in my spare room. BUT the absurdity of this rule set keeps delivering the goods so it's impossible to resist.

We all understand what the goal was here. Make it a little more accessible. Less guess work. A tic cheaper maybe. But rules that can't be verified can't be rules. Period. THIS is what we learned from P limited. Not just to keep people from cheating. To keep people from ever questioning the results and/or performance of the boats.

Newland penned the limited rules based on what we were all running. Multiple clubs scattered about the country. I proposed it as D2 director at the time. We both missed the flaws. Primary being the inability to prove a limited motor was truly a limited motor. Relying on the label wasn't good enough. We couldn't prove it at the pond. In our defense, the notion that a motor could be somehow modified was beyond me. Ignorance was truly bliss. The rule worked for a while. Sort of. But ultimately the flaws bubbled to the surface. I always say that "we blew it" for this reason. A good rule should have held up longer. We learned from it. This new set has the flaws we discovered with limited and some brand new ones.

Guess I wasn't done.

Bill wants to make me out to be an a$$ here. I got it from here Bill. It's a gift. haha The FE guys know me and expect nothing less. Really.

This rule set is broken. You don't even have to be an FE guy to recognize this. I will say though, I'm willing to accept that this proposal was not malicious nor some how nefarious but it does repeat mistakes we've made before.