Electric Rules

[RaceMechaniX]

Lohring,

I feel compelled to interject. We cannot and should not group SAW racing set-ups with general heat racing set-ups. There are several of us working on extreme limits like 1000A controllers and 75kRPM motors, but this is literally a handful of people and this is the point of SAW and time trials. Not a one of us is proposing to place such a power system in a heat racing boat.

Brian and I have had discussions ad nauseum about electronic limiters, fuses, etc and there is no clear winner. I have these same discussions with the Joerg, Arne and Gunnar and we can never agree on a clear and fair approach particularly with the differences between US racing and European racing.

The greatest benefit I see is coming up with a known list of combinations that are reliable and competitive that a non-FE expert can start with and get into. From there racers can swap components once they get a handle on it.

-Tyler

 

[T.S.Davis]

ban for life.

Oh man, now that's funny. There have been plenty of "life time ban" worthy occurrences over the years for behavior. Up until recently though NAMBA's hands were completely tied where discipline was concerned. At least on paper that is. There were "make shift" solutions that were used but nothing concrete. Nothing in the book really. They absolutely deserve credit for having addressed that in some capacity. I don't think "life time ban" exists in any other heat racing rules. I could be wrong though.

There are no provisions in the rule book requiring technical inspection of any boats before or after the heats. There is an option for pre-race inspection at the CD's discretion but it's not required. The book doesn't give authority to anyone to require the top three finishers be inspected at all. Not that I'm aware of at least. Maybe someone knows something I don't. The only time a boat "must" be tech'd according to the rule book is if it were to set a record or if it were protested. So you don't need to see the label unless one of those two things happens or if it is required pre-race by the CD. Post race isn't in the rule book.

Same thing with the cells. Upon protest or a record setting run you will simply look at the labels on the packs for the C rating. There is no way to check the C rating on site so you will be trusting the label that the racer had printed to get around the ridiculous un-techable C rating in the rule set.

 

[raptor347]

Teching motors....prove the markings after the race is over to top 3 is an easier solution. Better yet if youre caught trying to cheat , ban for life.

So at the 2015 nats we should have banned David Newton for life because his boat owner knowingly over charged the batteries in 1/10 vintage?

The problem with tech after the fact is an illegal boat changes the point accumulation in every heat for the boats running against it.

 

[T.S.Davis]

The problem with tech after the fact is an illegal boat changes the point accumulation in every heat for the boats running against it.

Or you kill yer equipment and don't finish because you're chasing a guy that it turns out was running an illegal motor. Changes the whole dynamic.

 

[Bill Brandt]

Teching motors....prove the markings after the race is over to top 3 is an easier solution. Better yet if youre caught trying to cheat , ban for life.

So at the 2015 nats we should have banned David Newton for life because his boat owner knowingly over charged the batteries in 1/10 vintage?

The problem with tech after the fact is an illegal boat changes the point accumulation in every heat for the boats running against it.

They do it with other sports.

Ive tried to explain my reasoning. If you dont like the result. Feel free to vote for change

I wish you all well. Im done on this thread.

 

[Ken Haines]

Wow....Bill you help make illegal and now obsolete a couple thousand of my FE Equipment and much more from many others and now the heat gets turned up a bit and you bail on conversation about it. You or the group responsible for the new 1/8th scale rule set barely if ever even travels to a National event. So knowing that this would affect a bunch of national racers must have not been thought about or even bothered anyone. Like I stated previously limiting power to an existing class really should have been done in the spirit of the P-Ltd method....maybe should have been a new class called 1/8th Scale Ltd. and then the effects and this backlash would not be occurring. Certainly some off us will be putting something down on paper and decide what should be done next. But likely it will be talked about plenty and a good solution would be reached before proceeding, just like should have been done before submitting these Scale rule changes.

As far as our NAMBA Safety Chairman (a Dentist by trade), please pull back on your current limit ideas. As you can tell by this thread you have really stirred the hornets nest and since it is not really a safety issue, just your vision of controlling the FE technology growth. I would urge you to reconsider your path. There are a core group of avid "Active" traveling racers that have a lot at stake here. Please let it go.

Thx,

Ken Haines

President / Wave Blasters of Florida (FE Club)

 

[T.S.Davis]

Ken, there is an easy solution of course? Simply don't participate. Outside of the nationals....what other NAMBA event could/would you attend east of the Rockies? You wont be traveling for a district race. Michigan Cups are IMPBA.

They do it in other sports? Is this a sport? I thought it was a hobby. Fer fun and crap. I'll bet they do ban people in other sports. I'll also bet they have rules in place to that effect too. NAMBA doesn't. Neither does IMPBA. If that's what ya wanted you should have written it into the proposal. It would have been a bold new direction where a mistake or some good ole fashioned ignorance could get you banned for life.

 

[John Borden]

I did support this rule.

We run the same rule in D7.

There was NO FE scales in D7 until 2016 when 1 person came to the pond. His boat was set up my this rule and i jumped on it.

I called Bill and ask for some help. I was sent a set of rule that spelled out all I needed to but in my Nitro Scale to change it the FE.

By the end of 2017 we have 12 Scale 10 we’re in the final race of 2017.

I have not raced a Scale boat in a long time as there was no class.

I 1 year we have took a class from 1 boat to making all are races.

We have tried for years to build up the Gas Scale class and we can not get 3 for the race this weekend.

So having a good rule in place has helped bring the Scale class back.

I have went to the 2017 Nats. just us Dallas boys and Brian.

Not a lot of support at the Nats.

We will have the class in Dallas 2018 using the new Rules.

I did not see the class going the way it was. Maybe it might grow or stay the way it is small.

But for a new person getting started the new rule is good.

But if you would like to talk please PM and I will send you my phone number..

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[raptor347]

Bill,

Another point, you guys have a successful scale club. Yes you guys have 40+ boat scale races. That number is spread over gas, nitro and FE. The first race of the season shows 15 FE boats entered, the second race had 11. Far from overwhelming numbers.

 

[T.S.Davis]

Wait, 15 FE Scale Unlimiteds Brian? I thought it was 40 scales and they have been running them for 6 years this way. Man, I must be slipp'n.

We're only getting about 45 entries for club races. Numbers are down. It's a cycle. We are getting more 10ths than ever before though. The NW guys did a killer job on that rule set IMO. We've adopted those without adding them to the rule book. Doesn't seem necessary for us.

 

[Bill Brandt]

Doing what I can to help the sport. Trying to give customers guidance. I wasn’t alone in this proposed change and that ain’t no “BS”. Otherwise it wouldn’t have passed. If people didn’t care enough to vote then they didn’t care.

The only good thing about this thread is we have toy boat racing in common. I gave an explanation and I get flack.

30 boats I made obsolete? That’s nuts. Just throw in an 8S setup that I bet you have more of than 10S and you’re running.

Come race with us. Last two races over 40 Scales entered in various Scale classes. We’re growing and we’ve been running this program now for 6 years in FE.

I believe my statement above states 40 plus SCALE BOATS IN VARIOUS CLASSES. This is a thread without purpose. I stepped away because you want to turn it into an argument. You repeat items out of context to fit your needs. Where were you before the vote? People heard yourargument before and they/we voted for change. Brian Tooms, I understand the fine print on your 70C says 65-130 burst so if they’re 8S they’re good. If I’m so powerful alone to make changes there will be more in store. Somehow l doubt that’s the case.

 

[Bill Brandt]

Wow....Bill you help make illegal and now obsolete a couple thousand of my FE Equipment and much more from many others and now the heat gets turned up a bit and you bail on conversation about it. You or the group responsible for the new 1/8th scale rule set barely if ever even travels to a National event. So knowing that this would affect a bunch of national racers must have not been thought about or even bothered anyone. Like I stated previously limiting power to an existing class really should have been done in the spirit of the P-Ltd method....maybe should have been a new class called 1/8th Scale Ltd. and then the effects and this backlash would not be occurring. Certainly some off us will be putting something down on paper and decide what should be done next. But likely it will be talked about plenty and a good solution would be reached before proceeding, just like should have been done before submitting these Scale rule changes.As far as our NAMBA Safety Chairman (a Dentist by trade), please pull back on your current limit ideas. As you can tell by this thread you have really stirred the hornets nest and since it is not really a safety issue, just your vision of controlling the FE technology growth. I would urge you to reconsider your path. There are a core group of avid "Active" traveling racers that have a lot at stake here. Please let it go.Thx,Ken HainesPresident / Wave Blasters of Florida (FE Club)

Ken,

You’re naive if you think I’m that powerful. Nothing to pull back, the rule has been changed. As John Borden from Texas said, before they had squat. Now they have a growing class.

We have a full season of Scale racing here in the Great Northwest. No need to travel that far to race. And just wondering who cares that your safety chair is a Dentist? I retired as Sr Vice President of one of the largest Credit Unions on the West Coast. That and 2,50 buys me a cup of coffee. No one cares.

 

[Mikemalloy]

Another positive that has happened in the NW RC/U is we have 23 FE boats in competition and another 8-10 in development and a couple of those will be in competition in the next couple of races. So depending on peoples schedules and personal lives we have the potential of 25 FE boats alone in RC/U for a single race. I think that is pretty dang good. I don't understand why the IMPBA guys are so upset over this, Does it change how you run now? Nope my understanding IMPBA is IMPBA right?

As for the lipo batteries stating they are 70C I have doubts. Where is the proof? A sticker label on a battery. Most battery MFGs are way over rated on their battery specs IN MY OPINION, one that comes to mind is Max Amps.. Battery (LIPO) Technology is growing fast that it will be evolving quicker than we are aware. this is just a guesstimation in the last 5-6 years lipos went from soso to NANO TECH, to NANO SPEC A to Graphenes,and I'm on my 3rd YEAR/SEASON on my Turnigy Graphenes and are as good as when i first got them.. We also have had guys racing in our club with Giant Power, Gens Ace and they have all been comparable not one person had an edge on someone else. In short I just want to go out have FUN race boats, meet new people and welcome anyone to come race with us

 

[John Borden]

This rule was done by the rules

You have to have it in your district for at lest 1 year. Two districts did just that.

There was time for all to read and talk to your district and vote.

I do not post negative [emoji107] post.

We need to be positive.

We are now talking. Maybe we can get some more racing going and stay positive. In you area keep racing what you have and have fun. That is what we need to do.

I love to talk Scale. It not hard to get my phone number.

PM me and lets talk some Scale boat and grow the sport.

See you at the pond.

Have fun and let’s play.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[raptor347]

As for the lipo batteries stating they are 70C I have doubts. Where is the proof? A sticker label on a battery. Most battery MFGs are way over rated on their battery specs IN MY OPINION, one that comes to mind is Max Amps..

Very few people have setups capable of maxing out a batteries potential. I don't think anyone in the US has pushed cells as hard as I have, Tyler Garard being the possible/probable exception. 70C is a reality with the better quality cells. That being said there are lots of cells on the market that won't live up to the manufacturers C rating.

I have the proof from data logs from my time trial boats. The Dinogy cells I've been running for several years delivered well over 70C on the way to multiple records, including the fastest 4 cell hydro in the world not to mention multiple national championships.

The reason you don't see a difference in your boats? You aren't pushing the cells particularly hard. The big gains aren't apparent until you get up near the chemistry and mechanical limits of a cell.

Putting the C rating cap in the battery specs has no effect on 1/8 scale performance but does make the rule cumbersome. It will become more of an issue as the advertised C (actual or imaginary) rating goes up in the hobby battery industry as a whole and the better quality cells are rated above the limit. We're seeing that already.

Of course we can request "65C" legal packs from the more responsive vendors.

 

[Bill Brandt]

And as clubs allow higher C ratings they can propose further change in Namba as they run them for a year. When the rule change was proposed it was required that it can only list what a club or clubs have been enforcing for at least one year. Therefore it could not be proposed “Any motor with a 850KV rating” because that’s not what was enforced. Three specific motors were enforced.

 

[Don Ferrette]

I don't understand why the IMPBA guys are so upset over this, Does it change how you run now? Nope my understanding IMPBA is IMPBA right?

Maybe because the self appointed FE "expert" who started this thread repeatedly and forcefully attempted to interject this new NAMBA rule into the IMPBA FE scale thread even after being told not to so now it's their turn. Or it could be that now it's "were" instead of "are" IMPBA FE scale guys who crossed over and raced both orgs and they're not happy about it. Or maybe it's as simple as this was one of the few classes were the rules between NAMBA and IMPBA were so close that for all the bitching about why there's two orgs this was one spot with true common ground. I don't know pick one.... or two.... or all of them...........

 

[T.S.Davis]

Kens point may have been that by trade he's a nuclear electrician and may have a different point of reference. He left that part out.

The hand wringing on this whole thing is two fold. You guys ignored the existing racers and their investments with this proposal. You also guaranteed that no crossover will be happening between organizations. With FE being such a small piece of the racing puzzle the cross over was helpful.

The rule as written is horribly flawed. Bordering on un-enforceable. You wrote in a C rating that you've never verified even at the club level. Sorry but you guys likely don't know how to verify it. That's not actually a dig. Very few would. Couple that to the fact that most C ratings are utter BS and it's a bad rule. The the rule is as proposed and now passed .............read the label. That's what ya got. Same with the motors. Read the label. "Hey, is that motor legal? I don't know. What's the little paper sticker from Neu say on the can?" Another bad rule.

Did we learn nothing from P Limited? Apparently not. If it can't be verified it can't be a rule. This is where we blew it with limited.

I honest to goodness don't care about the NAMBA rules anymore. I do care about FE. My fellow racers that chase national events now need two setups or to just give up on NAMBA. Guys NOT participating in events for any reason is bad for FE.

As for people not making a bigger stink prior to the vote I totally agree. The time to campaign against this has long passed. I really don't think anyone believed this would pass though. I know those national travelers sure didn't. Guys like the national chairman had stated he was voting NO. Everybody that I travel with thought the same thing. "No way that'll pass. It's nuts with all the un-techables". Plus it has all the tasty flaws we've found with limited built right into it. No way that could get passed....................yet, here we are.

I do have an honest question. You mentioned that clubs could continue doing what they've always done locally. Yep.....they sure could. Why didn't you guys do just that? Instead of cramming it down the throats of guys that actually do travel to national events? Makes no sense at all.

 

[Bill Brandt]

Answer is clear to us Sir. The rule has worked well for us and others well for a good while. No one so far has tried to cheat and circumvent the rule. Those of us in At least Washington, Texas and others believed other racers would like the attempt at consistency to build on. Certainly didnt look upon as cramming or infringement on others.

I personally apologize if you believe it was my intent to hurt your racing experience.

 

[T.S.Davis]

Oh I don't think it was malicious. Just ignorant. You could have guys cheating but you would never know. Label reads right so it's right.

Yes. Consistancy. This makes sense. The guys that spent thousands of dollars testing from 2002 until 2006, researching, testing, breaking stuff, getting it wrong, getting it right......and only then getting it placed in both organizations. ......them guys..........they wanted "consistancy" too. Otherwise there was no point.

Now......there is no consistancy. You deleted that. They're boats are illegal and there is no crossover between orgs. Perfect. Good job fellas.