WTB - small milling machine and tooling

[Ray Sametz]

Another option, http://www.miniaturetree.com/viewproductdetail.asp?id=53

 

[Brad Christy]

Tony,

I'll tell you two stories that I think sum up my advise:

My dad was looking into getting a digital camera and was going from shop to shop, looking at his options. He was looking to spend $200-300, which gave him many models to choose from. Then he remembered he has a cousin who does ALOT of photography as a hobby, so he gave him a call. This cousin made a profound statement to my dad. "When you buy your first digatal camera, buy your second one instead. It will save you a couple hundred bucks......." It seems silly upon first thought, but..........

A friend's dad was getting into trap shooting and decided to buy his own shotgun (he had been shooting a friends gun up until that point). Being a fairly frugal guy, despite having the means to buy the gun he wanted, he bought one of the least expensive models that would "get the job done". After about two months into it, he decided to get a little better gun that he liked initially, but thought it was more than he wanted to spend. Over the next two years (about), he did this several times ,each time selling his "old" gun for about half what he had bought it for. Over this period of time he ended up spending about about three times what the gun he ended up with cost, and is still wishing he'd bought the $10K Ithica he had drooled over every time he went to the gun shop.

As Chris stated, you'll be much happier if you go ahead and get a full sized mill and a small, but full sized lathe. Don't screw around with a Smithy or any other of the "All-In-One" junk heaps. If you buy a couple of "trader" 'zines and look around, you'll probably find both for less than $5K total, along with the tooling to go with it. And, as Joe K stated, you'll only gripe about the cost once.

I still think we need an "Armchair Machinist" forum on this board.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Twinsrule]

larger mills are nice but there are a couple things to consider for the floor models one is space and a good solid floor under it at least 6" concrete is preferred,

Next is if you're doing this out of your home be prepared to spend big bucks for a 3 phase converter. Next best option to 3 phase is find an electrician that can wire in a single phase motor as a jump starter to pick up your third phase.

 

[Glenn Gates]

larger mills are nice but there are a couple things to consider for the floor models one is space and a good solid floor under it at least 6" concrete is preferred,Next is if you're doing this out of your home be prepared to spend big bucks for a 3 phase converter. Next best option to 3 phase is find an electrician that can wire in a single phase motor as a jump starter to pick up your third phase.

Some very good points twins but I would not consider $180 for a 1-4 h.p. phase converter Big Bucks. I have heard phase converters rob horsepower so going with a seperate single phase motor to jump start the three phase may be a better way to go I'll try to check with an old friend in CA to verify this. I checked the weight on a couple knee mills and the Enco Bridgeport copy weighs 2650 lbs. w/ vari speed and 2400 lbs for the step pulley model. 9x49 inch. The Grizzley 9x42 single phaze also 2400 lbs. Also agree with another Gent on this topic. Traming or dialing in the heads on the smaller machines is a pain in the azz. I'd still prefer a used Bridgeport with a new digital read out to any of the new chinese stuff. I agree putting any machine on a weak foundation is not a good idea. I don't think a 2 H.P. mill on a 3 inch concrete floor is excessive for hobby work if the machine is leveled properly. Just my 2 cents, Glenn

 

[Brad Christy]

Glenn, Twins,

This is how the whole single phase to 3Ph thing works. You run your 220v single phase to a static phase converter (about $150-200). For the converter you run wiring to a three phase moter that is rated for approx 50% more HP than the largest motor you intend to run. This is called an "idler motor". From the idler, your wires go on to your application motor(s). When you flip the switch to the converter, the idler motor starts up, "communicating" with the converter and creating the third phase. From the idler motor on, you have true thee phase current.

I just went through this about a year ago when I installed a Hardinge Toolroom lathe in my garage. The lathe runs on 440v 3ph. I had been running a mill off of just the static converter, but since there was a transformer involved with the lathe, I had to add the idler motor. Any motor that runs straight off a static converter operates at about 2/3 rated HP due to the way the converter "feeds" off the motor to create the third phase. This is why the idle motor need to be rated at 50% more HP that the larges application motor you're intending to run. I have a 1-3 HP Phas-O-Matic, running a 3HP 3Ph idler motor, going through a 220-440v 3PH transformer, running a 1 1/2 HP spindle motor on the lathe. Works like a charm. It sounds much more complicated than it really is.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[steve wood]

e-bay rules, when it comes to metal working. i could spend 8 hours a day on there. i stole a 2 year old sharp, with an acurite 3 axis readout for less than 1/2 of new, mint condition, drove to minneapolis to pick it up. took the table off and had a wrecker set it down my outside basement stairwell. rolled it in place on lengths of pipe. it has a vfd. no belts to change ,no vari drive to go bad. runs on single phase 220. only way to go. watch ebay every day, there are deals if you are careful.

you can see pics of the mill on our website

 

[Glenn Gates]

Glenn, Twins,
This is how the whole single phase to 3Ph thing works. You run your 220v single phase to a static phase converter (about $150-200). For the converter you run wiring to a three phase moter that is rated for approx 50% more HP than the largest motor you intend to run. This is called an "idler motor". From the idler, your wires go on to your application motor(s). When you flip the switch to the converter, the idler motor starts up, "communicating" with the converter and creating the third phase. From the idler motor on, you have true thee phase current.

I just went through this about a year ago when I installed a Hardinge Toolroom lathe in my garage. The lathe runs on 440v 3ph. I had been running a mill off of just the static converter, but since there was a transformer involved with the lathe, I had to add the idler motor. Any motor that runs straight off a static converter operates at about 2/3 rated HP due to the way the converter "feeds" off the motor to create the third phase. This is why the idle motor need to be rated at 50% more HP that the larges application motor you're intending to run. I have a 1-3 HP Phas-O-Matic, running a 3HP 3Ph idler motor, going through a 220-440v 3PH transformer, running a 1 1/2 HP spindle motor on the lathe. Works like a charm. It sounds much more complicated than it really is.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Brad thank's for explaining that in terms I could understand. For those of you out there that have never used a Hardinge toolroom lathe, you're missing out-these small lathes are SWEET!!!!! Last time I checked-around 5 years ago new ones were going for around for around $ 38,000. Did you find a used one? And I'll be nosey and ask what you had to give for it. Thank's ,Glenn

 

[Brad Christy]

Glenn,

We're getting a bit off topic, but whatever..........

Mine is a 1980 model HLV-H-EM. I gave $11K for it, complete with most of the tooling, no taper attachment or coolant/oil sump. Complete set of 5C collets, 3&4 jaw chucks, faceplate, steady rest, four position precision turret indexer, .0002" DRO. It's pretty sweet. Now all I have to do is get it busy enough to be able to afford my Acu-Rite mill.........

BTW, the new ones today are going for over $40K with no tooling, not even a toolpost. That's pretty steep for a manual machine with a footprint of about 30"x60". Worth every dime, though, if you can keep it busy. With .00002" spindle run-out and bedway alignment variance of less than .0001", you get what you pay for.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Dale P]

Just an FYI. If it looks like a Sieg Machine it is a Sieg machine. Sieg makes lathes and mills for Harbor freight, Micro Mark, Grizzly, Jet, and many more. That $1000.00 mill in the link from the "German made" company is the same one you can get a harbor freight for less than $400.00 That's a lot of money that could go for tooling.

Bridgeport machines are nice, but hard to get into the basement! I started off with the harbor freight 7 x 10 and mini mill. I was able to do what I wanted, but moved up to the 9 x 20 and gear head mill. The extra size and horse power makes machining parts much easier. They were a pain in the butt to get in the basement, but possible.

Good luck!

Dale P.

 

[topfuel443]

That $1000.00 mill in the link from the "German made" company is the same one you can get a harbor freight for less than $400.00 That's a lot of money that could go for tooling.

Good luck!

Dale P.

Sorry Dale, you are wrong about that one. I have been to the factory here in Germany. I went down to get another control board after I shorted this one out using a converter incorectly. The company that makes the machine I posted makes HUGE full size CNC and manual stuff, as well as the smaller machines like I have. This is what the Chinese **** is copied from, not the other way around. Just because it "looks" the same, certainly doesnt mean it is the same, especially not with machine tools. I have used the harbor freight and sieg tools you speak of, and I can safely say because I used those machines, I vowed not to go the cheap harbor freight route. Like comparing apples to oranges.

Here is where my machines came from. <a href="http://www.optimum-machines.com/home/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.optimum-machines.com/home/index.html</a>

Also, I paid around $2,300.00 for this mill with the DRO and a few peices of tooling.

Just setting the facts straight.

~James

 

[Tony Jacuzzi]

That $1000.00 mill in the link from the "German made" company is the same one you can get a harbor freight for less than $400.00 That's a lot of money that could go for tooling.

Good luck!

Dale P.

Sorry Dale, you are wrong about that one. I have been to the factory here in Germany. I went down to get another control board after I shorted this one out using a converter incorectly. The company that makes the machine I posted makes HUGE full size CNC and manual stuff, as well as the smaller machines like I have. This is what the Chinese **** is copied from, not the other way around. Just because it "looks" the same, certainly doesnt mean it is the same, especially not with machine tools. I have used the harbor freight and sieg tools you speak of, and I can safely say because I used those machines, I vowed not to go the cheap harbor freight route. Like comparing apples to oranges.

Here is where my machines came from. <a href="http://www.optimum-machines.com/home/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.optimum-machines.com/home/index.html</a>

Also, I paid around $2,300.00 for this mill with the DRO and a few peices of tooling.

Just setting the facts straight.

~James

Unfortunately they do not have a US or Canadian Distributor. I cant imagine what the shipping and imprt taxed would be , but that sure looks like a quality tabletop piece to me. My son will be in Germany from April to June maybe I will get him to mail it home piece by piece. LOL.. Tony J

 

[Dale P]

Sorry I was talking about the one in the link from KNUTH. http://www.knuth.de/v1/frameset_usa.htm

This is the same one as harbor freight, the they want $1000.00 for it. The machine Grizzly and jet sells is the same too.

Your machine is beautiful and much better, it's a shame they don't have a US distributor.

Dale P.

 

[gratte-tout]

This machine is made in Germany, and with most German made equipment, they pride themselves on precision. I would stay away from the cheaper chinese models, especially if plan on doing small, intricate, precision work.

Nice machine. But you're wrong, it' not a german machine, it's like all the machine someone like us may buy, not an industrial one.. like Gambin / cincinnati / hermle or else..

Plant where they are made

A friend buy one, and the quality control paper was made in.. chenise!!

Don't think you bought a german machine. Only few components are german, but very few..

Attention, I'm not telling you it's a bad machine, I also buy à chinese one, and the one you chose (the BF2) is very great!

I also bought a chinese machine, made in china, made by Sieg.

It's a super X3, 1000W brushless, very nice. Tilting head is VERY appreciated! 1450€ here, shipping costs included (from luxembourg to France)

Look here for spec.

Mine is green because re-painted by the local dealer.

If you need help, I may advise you, I looked on web for months before I bought one.

 

[topfuel443]

I have been to the factory here in Germany. I went down to get another control board after I shorted this one out using a converter incorectly. The company that makes the machine I posted makes HUGE full size CNC and manual stuff, as well as the smaller machines like I have. This is what the Chinese **** is copied from, not the other way around. Just because it "looks" the same, certainly doesnt mean it is the same, especially not with machine tools. I have used the harbor freight and sieg tools you speak of, and I can safely say because I used those machines, I vowed not to go the cheap harbor freight route. Like comparing apples to oranges.

~James

~James

 

[gratte-tout]

So how can we explain the pict I posted?

They come from the german web site http://www.top-maschinen.de/

The guy doesn't look like german ones :lol:

 

[Joe_Knesek]

Granted I am unilingual but I'm pretty sure your mill is made in "China und Taiwan" James.

http://www.top-maschinen.de/werkzeugmaschi...vario/index.htm

Gerade bei Maschinen aus Fern-Ost sollte man keine Kompromisse eingehen. Es gibt viele maschinenbauende Firmen in China und Taiwan. Die Asiaten versuchen zu kopieren was auch immer sie in die Finger bekommen. Oft fertigen sie Produkte, ohne deren Funktion und die Ansprüche der Kunden aus den westlichen Nationen zu kennen. Darum ist es besonders wichtig, daß eine enge Zusammenarbeit mit kompetenten Maschinenbauern besteht.

 

[dave roach]

James

That optimun is made in Japan and is put together in Germany.

Dave

 

[gratte-tout]

JamesThat optimun is made in Japan and is put together in Germany.

Dave

Japan? I would have say China or taiwan..

It's clear that all this little machines are ALL made in asia..

There's not a lot of european machines, like Wabeco, and the price is not really the same..