MY NEW SPORT 20 BUILD ...LEGAL OR NOT THAT IS THE QUESTION

[Terry Keeley]

I was one of the techs when Mike got his SP40 oval at 21.689 in Fall 2000, there was nothing in our IMPBA Rule Book that would have definitively made the boat illegal.

The fact the record has stood for almost nine years speaks to how good the design is...

 

[Rokieboater]

Ok guys. I have tried to help you all understand the rules but your just not listening. I am going to convert my old 20 hydro into to a sport hydro like the one you say are going to be legal. When I am done with it you will have to prove that it is a modfied rigger. I am even going to post the pictures to show you all how it is done. The boat will apear to look like Brad's boat or Mike's boat or this new boat that Terry has built. I believe that you will have a big surprize.

This should be interesting.

Robert

 

[P THOMAS]

Ok guys. I have tried to help you all understand the rules but your just not listening. I am going to convert my old 20 hydro into to a sport hydro like the one you say are going to be legal. When I am done with it you will have to prove that it is a modfied rigger. I am even going to post the pictures to show you all how it is done. The boat will apear to look like Brad's boat or Mike's boat or this new boat that Terry has built. I believe that you will have a big surprize.

Well I didnt say anything is legal or not jut gave my thoughts on the rule.

Dont get po or anything it has been a interesting post.

PHIL

 

[Mark Bullard]

Ok guys. I have tried to help you all understand the rules but your just not listening. I am going to convert my old 20 hydro into to a sport hydro like the one you say are going to be legal. When I am done with it you will have to prove that it is a modfied rigger. I am even going to post the pictures to show you all how it is done. The boat will apear to look like Brad's boat or Mike's boat or this new boat that Terry has built. I believe that you will have a big surprize.

Well I didnt say anything is legal or not jut gave my thoughts on the rule.

Dont get po or anything it has been a interesting post.

PHIL

I'm not Phil. I just want to prove a point on what is a modfied rigger is. It is clear that a lot of racers do not understand the concept. Just because you can blend in the top deck to cover the bottom does not make it legal hull.

 

[LarryConrad]

I think Phil has the right idea about the difference between a outrigger and a sport boat. The modified outrigger rule doesn't hold water . I think...not that my opinion matters to anyone but me, that you either have a outrigger or a sport boat there is no in between.

 

[Brad Christy]

Larry,

Here is the rub. There is LOTS of "in between" to work with. There is a "sport" boat, there is an "outrigger", and then there are the ideas and designs that start these threads. The ones that push the boundaries and test the fences. I think pushing and testing are good for the hobby/sport, but this is why the rules need to be more clearly defined. Not that I'm all that worried about the rules in and of themselves, but when there are grey areas, open to interpretation, you have the chance of someone building a boat that will be legal in some eyes and not in others. This starts arguements, which are NOT good for the hobby/sport.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[P THOMAS]

Larry,
Here is the rub. There is LOTS of "in between" to work with. There is a "sport" boat, there is an "outrigger", and then there are the ideas and designs that start these threads. The ones that push the boundaries and test the fences. I think pushing and testing are good for the hobby/sport, but this is why the rules need to be more clearly defined. Not that I'm all that worried about the rules in and of themselves, but when there are grey areas, open to interpretation, you have the chance of someone building a boat that will be legal in some eyes and not in others. This starts arguements, which are NOT good for the hobby/sport.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

The rule is to keep people from modifiying riggers !

You or anyone else would not worry if you just use these two simple questions.

I think they should ask

modified rigger?

1. Is this a rigger with open space between the hull and sponson?

2. Is this a rigger with covered over tubes?

If NO,,, It is a sport boat.......

Dont matter if it dont look like other sport boats

 

[Rokieboater]

Sooooo, What came first the chicken or th egg???



Robert

 

[Mark Bullard]

I believe the egg did on this one. LOL And this has been a good discussion. And I agree with Brad about pushing the rules. But this is what I want to know Phil, Brad and others. What do you call a continuous hull? Or how do you look and the first sentence of the 3 point rule that states;

3-Point Suspension Hull: Will have two individual steps separated by a continuous "hull".

 

[TERMINATOR]

I believe the egg did on this one. LOL And this has been a good discussion. And I agree with Brad about pushing the rules. But this is what I want to know Phil, Brad and others. What do you call a continuous hull? Or how do you look and the first sentence of the 3 point rule that states;
3-Point Suspension Hull: Will have two individual steps separated by a continuous "hull".

mark before you get your pen out and start marking stuff like madden on a sunday football game..lol , here is my idea of a continuious hull a continuious flat area on the bottom with no bumps and divits as described in the rules that are in the impba rulebook, i went off the demensions and pictures, and i made the bottom of my hull flat out of a single piece of 1/16 ply.. and if needed then i made my formers out of 1/8 ply and assembled it like a whip does..then instead of having a void in the sides i made it out of solid balsa wood..hopefully for floatation and tried my best to make it all bleand and look good at the same time.. there are no boom tubes..or adjustable devises in mine what so ever.. and since i made my sponsons first i had them glued on the sides to attatch them. my reasoning for the explanation is when all put together it has the smae lines as a whip ..just a little more square and the sides of the center are continuious pieces sheeted with ply and have the same tips as a whip does.. so i guess i feel i was in the guidlines as that is the way mine was built not in rigger fashion. the thought never crossed my mind. i hope this explains what i was trying to say before .. and as far as a continuious line ..to me if it starts here and ends there if there are no breaks in it ...it is a continiuos line to me. good boating

terry

 

[P THOMAS]

I believe the egg did on this one. LOL And this has been a good discussion. And I agree with Brad about pushing the rules. But this is what I want to know Phil, Brad and others. What do you call a continuous hull? Or how do you look and the first sentence of the 3 point rule that states;
3-Point Suspension Hull: Will have two individual steps separated by a continuous "hull".

What do I calll a continuous hull? It describes a sport hydro hull, not a rigger

refer to question #1

 

[LarryConrad]

Larry,
Here is the rub. There is LOTS of "in between" to work with. There is a "sport" boat, there is an "outrigger", and then there are the ideas and designs that start these threads. The ones that push the boundaries and test the fences. I think pushing and testing are good for the hobby/sport, but this is why the rules need to be more clearly defined. Not that I'm all that worried about the rules in and of themselves, but when there are grey areas, open to interpretation, you have the chance of someone building a boat that will be legal in some eyes and not in others. This starts arguements, which are NOT good for the hobby/sport.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

I totally agree. If the IMPBA is going to use a term like modified outrigger in their rules the they should clarify what is a modified outrigger and what is not,or remove it all together. By the way your sport boat looks very interesting.

 

[Brad Christy]

Larry,

The term "modified outrigger" was used because that is exactly what it was intended to prevent. Guys were taking their outrigger hydros and MODIFYING them to fit into the sport class when it was first created. Since then, though, it has been leveraged against any boat that did not fit well within what whas already accepted as legal. There are sketches in the IMPBA rulebook describing what you can and cannot do in the mono class (steps, tunnels, etc...), why can't this be done for the sport hydro classes?

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[LarryConrad]

Larry,
The term "modified outrigger" was used because that is exactly what it was intended to prevent. Guys were taking their outrigger hydros and MODIFYING them to fit into the sport class when it was first created. Since then, though, it has been leveraged against any boat that did not fit well within what whas already accepted as legal. There are sketches in the IMPBA rulebook describing what you can and cannot do in the mono class (steps, tunnels, etc...), why can't this be done for the sport hydro classes?

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

And I bet that the riggers that were modified didn't work too well. We are in agreement on what should be done to clarify the rules. My experience with outriggers is very limited, but I have a very strong suspicion that if you took a 20 outrigger, that was running anywhere near what they are capable of running, and closed in the area between the tub and the sponsons, it would very difficult to even keep it on the water.

 

[Mark Bullard]

Larry,
The term "modified outrigger" was used because that is exactly what it was intended to prevent. Guys were taking their outrigger hydros and MODIFYING them to fit into the sport class when it was first created. Since then, though, it has been leveraged against any boat that did not fit well within what whas already accepted as legal. There are sketches in the IMPBA rulebook describing what you can and cannot do in the mono class (steps, tunnels, etc...), why can't this be done for the sport hydro classes?

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

This is also the reason that the continuous hull rule is wrote this way. It is very hard to modfied a rigger to meet that rule. One can do it on the top but not the bottom at the sponsons. You can cover the top of the boat but the bottom you have a sponson mounted with some kind of mount or covered mounting. Thus gives the appearance of a modfied rigger. The rules intent is for the inside plate of the sponson be connect to a hull that has a straight line. So to do this we build air tunnels that run the full lenght of the hull to attach to the tub area to extend the foot print out for the sponsons mount on. Those air tunnels are parallel to the center tub. This gives us our continuous hull. This is why only a straight line will work because it would be hard to mount a inside plate of a sponson that is straight to a arc without have a intersect. In what Terry did is by building a tub and then making blocks to mount his sponson on that was the same shape as the bottom of the tub that ended at or before the transom of the sponsons. This is the same thing as a rigger with a different mount. And by covering the top would only try to hide the bottom. You could do the same thing with a build up frame but the end results would be the same.

There is no doubt that this style of boat will let a lot of air out from under of the boat. I myself find it a challenge to alow the air to work for me. It makes for a faster boat.

 

[bzubee]

Don Ferrette proposed a definition of a Hydro out rigger at the last board meeting if I can get a copy of it I will try to post it here.

Definition of an Outrigger Hydro

 An outrigger hydro hull shall be defined by two front sponsons divided by a separate center section or “tub” and sponson "supports".

 These supports for the front sponsons may be by “boom tubes”, symmetrical or non symmetrical supports or “airfoils” but no part of said support may extend beyond the rearmost part of the front sponson body itself.

 These supports also must have clearly defined lines separating them from the center section or tub and front sponsons. No single continual surfaces allowed from sponsons to tub.

 Rear sponsons, shoes or ride pads are optional and may be placed on and/or under the center section.

 The transom of the center section or tub shall be no greater than 50% of the outside overall width of front sponsons.

Maybe this will help a little?

 

[P THOMAS]

Don Ferrette proposed a definition of a Hydro out rigger at the last board meeting if I can get a copy of it I will try to post it here.
Definition of an Outrigger Hydro

 An outrigger hydro hull shall be defined by two front sponsons divided by a separate center section or “tub” and sponson "supports".

 These supports for the front sponsons may be by “boom tubes”, symmetrical or non symmetrical supports or “airfoils” but no part of said support may extend beyond the rearmost part of the front sponson body itself.

 These supports also must have clearly defined lines separating them from the center section or tub and front sponsons. No single continual surfaces allowed from sponsons to tub.

 Rear sponsons, shoes or ride pads are optional and may be placed on and/or under the center section.

 The transom of the center section or tub shall be no greater than 50% of the outside overall width of front sponsons.

Maybe this will help a little?

NOT REALLY

Ha WHY would you have to define a outrigger???

 These supports also must have clearly defined lines separating them from the center section or tub and front sponsons. No single continual surfaces allowed from sponsons to tub.

What the heck does this mean

 

[Don Ferrette]

Don Ferrette proposed a definition of a Hydro out rigger at the last board meeting if I can get a copy of it I will try to post it here.
Definition of an Outrigger Hydro

 An outrigger hydro hull shall be defined by two front sponsons divided by a separate center section or “tub” and sponson "supports".

 These supports for the front sponsons may be by “boom tubes”, symmetrical or non symmetrical supports or “airfoils” but no part of said support may extend beyond the rearmost part of the front sponson body itself.

 These supports also must have clearly defined lines separating them from the center section or tub and front sponsons. No single continual surfaces allowed from sponsons to tub.

 Rear sponsons, shoes or ride pads are optional and may be placed on and/or under the center section.

 The transom of the center section or tub shall be no greater than 50% of the outside overall width of front sponsons.

Maybe this will help a little?

NOT REALLY

Ha WHY would you have to define a outrigger???

 These supports also must have clearly defined lines separating them from the center section or tub and front sponsons. No single continual surfaces allowed from sponsons to tub.

What the heck does this mean

Engage the brain and think about why an outrigger definition is needed............

 

[Brian Blazer]

Don Ferrette proposed a definition of a Hydro out rigger at the last board meeting if I can get a copy of it I will try to post it here.
Definition of an Outrigger Hydro

 An outrigger hydro hull shall be defined by two front sponsons divided by a separate center section or “tub” and sponson "supports".

 These supports for the front sponsons may be by “boom tubes”, symmetrical or non symmetrical supports or “airfoils” but no part of said support may extend beyond the rearmost part of the front sponson body itself.

 These supports also must have clearly defined lines separating them from the center section or tub and front sponsons. No single continual surfaces allowed from sponsons to tub.

 Rear sponsons, shoes or ride pads are optional and may be placed on and/or under the center section.

 The transom of the center section or tub shall be no greater than 50% of the outside overall width of front sponsons.

Maybe this will help a little?

Pictures would be nice to what this means. Does this mean you can't have a single airfoil from the tub to the sponsons? If it does, I quit.

 

[Mark Bullard]

Don Ferrette proposed a definition of a Hydro out rigger at the last board meeting if I can get a copy of it I will try to post it here.
Definition of an Outrigger Hydro

 An outrigger hydro hull shall be defined by two front sponsons divided by a separate center section or “tub” and sponson "supports".

 These supports for the front sponsons may be by “boom tubes”, symmetrical or non symmetrical supports or “airfoils” but no part of said support may extend beyond the rearmost part of the front sponson body itself.

 These supports also must have clearly defined lines separating them from the center section or tub and front sponsons. No single continual surfaces allowed from sponsons to tub.

 Rear sponsons, shoes or ride pads are optional and may be placed on and/or under the center section.

 The transom of the center section or tub shall be no greater than 50% of the outside overall width of front sponsons.

Maybe this will help a little?

NOT REALLY

Ha WHY would you have to define a outrigger???

 These supports also must have clearly defined lines separating them from the center section or tub and front sponsons. No single continual surfaces allowed from sponsons to tub.

What the heck does this mean

Engage the brain and think about why an outrigger definition is needed............

I am not really clear on the last sentence either. Does it mean that you cannot have a single boom or airfoil connecting the sponsons to the tub or does it mean that you cannot flare the mounts into the tub and sponsons.