Is the OB class doomed?

[Grimracer]

I have seen Lipos GO UP.. just on the bench. sitting there,, doing nothing... TWICE!

Do you think saving a few bucks a battery you're getting the top shelf cells (do you know what that means?)..

PLEASE HEED ALL WARNINGS.. Thats all.. mine go into an explosion cabinet. (I am not going to risk my house OR Wife and kids in that house).. for a few hundred bucks on a reasonable cabinet with blow out plugs.

Grim

 

[Sonny Cook]

I love the Outboard Tunnels, Esp being a Out board mechanic and Shop owner for over 30 years. Retired in 2019 started playing with the old Dumas Drag-n fly striped and redone, after Grand son got a little rc boat. it had never been run since i built it in the 80's ,New kb 3.5 never run. and put a OS on it. Have a couple FE tunnels i never got figured out totally . I started collecting and have now about 8 K&B outboards, some of the special models brand new in box and Everything but the one cube. I have several Tunnel hulls, i bought but just sitting. No where to run a Nitro were i live, Run the FE boats only allowed with Heart of Texas Club in Katy with two tunnels class and one cat. But stupid me at 69 built and New marine shop for my son and I. So the boats been just sitting. But was in garage last monday , went back tuesday and a Fire had happened, nothing pluged all just sitting in a bag. son in law with V.F.D. came over every thing in the bag burnt up, we found parts was two Lipos for Drills and milkuwee angle tool. Lucky the fire was contained to that spot. Smoke put the fire out , But everything in garage including my 1993 restored Mustang and My 2014 Shelby gt 500 covered in soot. Sad day. going to be a job to clean it all up. I have a bunch of RE lipos charged on the kitchen counter before, in the small fire bags and keep others in a large fire bag. Now will Never charge them in the House again!! Hope to get the nitros OB> and Finnish a couple used tunnels i bought used and run them soon . Only place i know close with 3 hours is San Antonio to run them.
Carl i may be interrested in one of the O.B, Hyrdos kits to build

 

[Kris Flynn]

Does anyone have data on an outboard rigger amp ratings, comparing corner loads to the straights?

I need to get actual numbers from all my testing from my laptop at home, but a 4S1P outboard F1 tunnel heat racing setup (32K rpm setup doing upwards of 100kph/63mph), racing for 5 laps does about 140 in straights to 180 amps in the corners...do not quote me on this, but its around that. It is not a huge difference in amps...especially compared to a mono for example.

I am genuinely interested in the amp differences in the outboard rigger setups.

for another reference, my 90mph 4S1P Outboard SAW Tunnel does around 260amps getting on plane and about 200amps when it is up and going and spinning at 41k rpm.

 

[Kris Flynn]

I have seen Lipos GO UP.. just on the bench. sitting there,, doing nothing... TWICE!

Do you think saving a few bucks a battery you're getting the top shelf cells (do you know what that means?)..

PLEASE HEED ALL WARNINGS.. Thats all.. mine go into an explosion cabinet. (I am not going to risk my house OR Wife and kids in that house).. for a few hundred bucks on a reasonable cabinet with blow out plugs.

Grim

I 100% believe that most issues are caused by people who use cheap chargers and buy cheap lipos.

for the amount of people that use lipo's in their RC boats, cars, planes or helis, there are not that many issues (1 issue is too many, by we will never have no issues) from what I can tell. Same as people drowning while swimming for their boat, it will just still happen.

ultimately it does come down to care and handling of the batteries and treating them like they could go up is the best approach...if in doubt, throw them out!

education is the key, FE is here to stay and as much as we do not like it, nitro is declining rapidly, especially as the RC population ages with it...

NITRO FOR THE WIN any day...I MUCH prefer a test day at the lake with nitro, over an FE boat, you can get some much more done.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

I can understand wanting to run nitro and all but I t

I love the Outboard Tunnels, Esp being a Out board mechanic and Shop owner for over 30 years. Retired in 2019 started playing with the old Dumas Drag-n fly striped and redone, after Grand son got a little rc boat. it had never been run since i built it in the 80's ,New kb 3.5 never run. and put a OS on it. Have a couple FE tunnels i never got figured out totally . I started collecting and have now about 8 K&B outboards, some of the special models brand new in box and Everything but the one cube. I have several Tunnel hulls, i bought but just sitting. No where to run a Nitro were i live, Run the FE boats only allowed with Heart of Texas Club in Katy with two tunnels class and one cat. But stupid me at 69 built and New marine shop for my son and I. So the boats been just sitting. But was in garage last monday , went back tuesday and a Fire had happened, nothing pluged all just sitting in a bag. son in law with V.F.D. came over every thing in the bag burnt up, we found parts was two Lipos for Drills and milkuwee angle tool. Lucky the fire was contained to that spot. Smoke put the fire out , But everything in garage including my 1993 restored Mustang and My 2014 Shelby gt 500 covered in soot. Sad day. going to be a job to clean it all up. I have a bunch of RE lipos charged on the kitchen counter before, in the small fire bags and keep others in a large fire bag. Now will Never charge them in the House again!! Hope to get the nitros OB> and Finnish a couple used tunnels i bought used and run them soon . Only place i know close with 3 hours is San Antonio to run them.
Carl i may be interrested in one of the O.B, Hyrdos kits to build

I 100% believe that most issues are caused by people who use cheap chargers and buy cheap lipos.

for the amount of people that use lipo's in their RC boats, cars, planes or helis, there are not that many issues (1 issue is too many, by we will never have no issues) from what I can tell. Same as people drowning while swimming for their boat, it will just still happen.

ultimately it does come down to care and handling of the batteries and treating them like they could go up is the best approach...if in doubt, throw them out!

education is the key, FE is here to stay and as much as we do not like it, nitro is declining rapidly, especially as the RC population ages with it...

NITRO FOR THE WIN any day...I MUCH prefer a test day at the lake with nitro, over an FE boat, you can get some much more done.

Kris / Sonny,

I will build two laser-cut prototypes so that they can be setup by people who can give us a product review that includes amp data, heat readings, props, speeds and overall performance and a configuration review (what they liked or disliked about the model).

Mic H. from Florida and Greg S. from Washington State will be the two FE guys that will be getting these and helping gather info (Greg don't know this yet) HA! Both of these will be setup FE.

I predict a bit of attention to turn fin design and size is coming with the added weight of the batteries as compared to a nitro setup. For people who are already running FE Outboards it may be something you may want to try. Once we get this initial data and if all is well, kits can be made.

One thing is for sure, it will be fast!
-Carl

 

[RaceMechaniX]

Does anyone have data on an outboard rigger amp ratings, comparing corner loads to the straights?

I need to get actual numbers from all my testing from my laptop at home, but a 4S1P outboard F1 tunnel heat racing setup (32K rpm setup doing upwards of 100kph/63mph), racing for 5 laps does about 140 in straights to 180 amps in the corners...do not quote me on this, but its around that. It is not a huge difference in amps...especially compared to a mono for example.

I am genuinely interested in the amp differences in the outboard rigger setups.

for another reference, my 90mph 4S1P Outboard SAW Tunnel does around 260amps getting on plane and about 200amps when it is up and going and spinning at 41k rpm.

don't have any outboard data, but have tons of inboard data.

 

[John Andresen]

This is John A and I run with the Heart of Texas Model Boat Club in Katy, Texas. We’re an all FE club that is NAMBA affiliated and run 6 lap heat races on a private lake.

Some of the guys in the club call me “Mr. Outboard” because I’ve bolted 3.5 sized Lowers (K&B, TFL and OS) w/ P-ltd motors on tunnels, kneeler hydros, monos and riggers for P-limited heat racing at HOTMBC.

Heres a couple pics of a P-ltd OB rigger that I ran for a couple meetups at HOTMBC. With a off the shelf 3660/2030 kv motor on 4S, flycolor 150 with a Grim 42x66 prop it did 57mph on the straights and turned reasonably well with a custom made (non bent) turnfin, but it was outclassed in speed by the inboard rigger setups. It was, however, super fun to run.

The basis of my Rigger OB build was a Zippkits nitro OB kit that I heavily adapted for FE.

My interest is also in growing OB FE racing.

 

[HTV Boats]

First off Grim is correct, you need to protect your home and family. That said lipo's are only as safe as the humans handling them. I have seen a few fires due to charging rates. Car guys are the worst I have seen so far pushing over 20 amps. I don't exceed 10amps and usually 5-6 amps even between heats.
I also use ammo cans but vent them with multiple 1/2" holes and half the rubber lid seal removed. In the house I use to put them in an old metal file cabinet for added suppression. Now I have a garage fridge and store the cans inside. At 40 degrees and storage voltage (3.85v or less) you extend battery life. Lipo bags work also.
I also balance every charge and never put cells away without knowing every individual cell voltage.
As Kris said any questions or doubts just throw them out. Put them in salt water to totally discharge and safe for the trash.
Mic

 

[Carl Van Houten]

don't have any outboard data, but have tons of inboard data.

I want to talk to you when you get time. I have a couple of questions before I push this model out to the laser.

 

[Grimracer]

Just tossing this out there for your knowledge..

When at Hobbico we did a bunch of safety testing.. here are some notables

Lipo sacks..
The stitching MUST be kevlar OR they come apart.
The "SNAP" Style are far Superior to the Velcro type.
The flames will shoot out the sides of the flap (you want this) but have seen flames shoot out as far as 2 feet

Battery safe system like Venoms box..
COMPLETE FAIL.. the box come apart is a large BOOM. Lid was 200 feet from the box when we found it

Ammo Cans..
"vented" like Mic is doing
3200 3S Pack
Purposely over charging (in all cases)
The ammo can gave us the largest "PARTY" The LID was BLASTED OFF the keeper was broke and the lid was bent 90deg. The lid was also several feet from the can. Then the other two cells went up one after the other.. the total "fire time" was almost a minuet.

Most important observation.. ALL YOU CAN DO is direct the flame! TRUE..

Me...
I DO transport my LIPOS in a ammo can as well. I DO use lipo bags inside ammo cans, I DO keep my lipos in the garage in a fire cabinet (Lipos are NOT allowed in the house, charging or not)

Grim

 

[Carl Van Houten]

This is John A and I run with the Heart of Texas Model Boat Club in Katy, Texas. We’re an all FE club that is NAMBA affiliated and run 6 lap heat races on a private lake.

Some of the guys in the club call me “Mr. Outboard” because I’ve bolted 3.5 sized Lowers (K&B, TFL and OS) w/ P-ltd motors on tunnels, kneeler hydros, monos and riggers for P-limited heat racing at HOTMBC.

Heres a couple pics of a P-ltd OB rigger that I ran for a couple meetups at HOTMBC. With a off the shelf 3660/2030 kv motor on 4S, flycolor 150 with a Grim 42x66 prop it did 57mph on the straights and turned reasonably well with a custom made (non bent) turnfin, but it was outclassed in speed by the inboard rigger setups. It was, however, super fun to run.

The basis of my Rigger OB build was a Zippkits nitro OB kit that I heavily adapted for FE.

My interest is also in growing OB FE racing. View attachment 328028

View attachment 328029

THIS IS GREAT! Looks like there will be a race against the FE O/B Hydro's soon. Thanks for jumping on and giving your input. How many amps are you pulling in the turns and straights?

 

[HTV Boats]

As for saving OB racing, FE is an option. In Florida we are combing P/L with .21 tunnels and our local Q/L with .45 tunnels. So far more FE's but it does provide a place for nitro to compete.

After 40+years nitro and 12 FE this is my opinion.
A lot of us went to 4s limited for economics and it seems the power (torque) made 21 size hulls not so seaworthy. Tired of retrieving only the die hards remained. On 6s (Q) not much different as a 4082 or 4092 was a few bucks more than the 4074 so power it up and blow it over.
The P class tried to limit motor size which worked for a while and then tinkerers (you know who you are Don) made them work too well and now Tenshock at twice the price is a class killer. Your $60 ESC needs to go and add a $200+ ESC. The solution is full P and they are not being built;
Locally we run a 6s Q/limited class with a 4074 can limit. At some point we need to go beyond the honor system and formally put a $100 claiming rule in. (Don is still out there) So far with the Flycolor esc and an $80 motor on several .45 size hulls speeds are low to mid 50's and the bots are very seaworthy. You can go faster and risk overheating in a 6 lap heat. $140 motor and esc and 50+ mph. Tons of good .45 hulls out there collecting dust.
To be sure I love Don and respect his knowledge. What he has done with motor and records is a plus for the sport. We need innovators to push and find boundaries.
To be successful we in my opinion need to not overpower things to make classes people will build and race.
Mic

 

[HTV Boats]

As long as we are discussing safety. Common fire extinguishers won't suppress or put out a lipo fire.
A bucket of sand or fire blanket works better. $30 on Amazon. (fire suppression blanket)
Mic

 

[John Andresen]

THIS IS GREAT! Looks like there will be a race against the FE O/B Hydro's soon. Thanks for jumping on and giving your input. How many amps are you pulling in the turns and straights?

Carl, Not sure how many amps my 3660 and 3656 motors are pulling in the turns and straights as I haven’t made the jump to data logging. I’ve just been bolting basic (non-tenshock) P-Ltd motors onto OB lowers and running the heck out of them on 4S throuh a flycolor 150 escs. The flycolor esc have taken all the abuse I can throw at them without failure. I do use OSE cap banks on my escs though.

Here’s a screenshot of my P-ltd OB Kneeler on 4S. I’ve raced it with traditional P-ltd inboard hydros in heat racing at HOTMBC but was outclassed in straightaway speed to be competitive.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

As for saving OB racing, FE is an option. In Florida we are combing P/L with .21 tunnels and our local Q/L with .45 tunnels. So far more FE's but it does provide a place for nitro to compete.

After 40+years nitro and 12 FE this is my opinion.
A lot of us went to 4s limited for economics and it seems the power (torque) made 21 size hulls not so seaworthy. Tired of retrieving only the die hards remained. On 6s (Q) not much different as a 4082 or 4092 was a few bucks more than the 4074 so power it up and blow it over.
The P class tried to limit motor size which worked for a while and then tinkerers (you know who you are Don) made them work too well and now Tenshock at twice the price is a class killer. Your $60 ESC needs to go and add a $200+ ESC. The solution is full P and they are not being built;
Locally we run a 6s Q/limited class with a 4074 can limit. At some point we need to go beyond the honor system and formally put a $100 claiming rule in. (Don is still out there) So far with the Flycolor esc and an $80 motor on several .45 size hulls speeds are low to mid 50's and the bots are very seaworthy. You can go faster and risk overheating in a 6 lap heat. $140 motor and esc and 50+ mph. Tons of good .45 hulls out there collecting dust.
To be sure I love Don and respect his knowledge. What he has done with motor and records is a plus for the sport. We need innovators to push and find boundaries.
To be successful we in my opinion need to not overpower things to make classes people will build and race.
Mic

Don's motor knowledge is over the top. He gets those electrons MOVING!

 

[Kris Flynn]

If FE is the future, how come we are still only seeing 6 boats MAXIMUM (for each class that is) turn up at the largest outboard only event in 2022? Ask the same question for 2023 and 2024 also

Do not take this as a negative...I love FE boats, but they are not the same as Nitro, they are not raced the same, the milling time is not the same.

FE racing is HECTIC! usually lower skilled drivers with way overpowered boats lol

 

[Dave Gilles]

I 100% believe that most issues are caused by people who use cheap chargers and buy cheap lipos.

for the amount of people that use lipo's in their RC boats, cars, planes or helis, there are not that many issues (1 issue is too many, by we will never have no issues) from what I can tell. Same as people drowning while swimming for their boat, it will just still happen.

ultimately it does come down to care and handling of the batteries and treating them like they could go up is the best approach...if in doubt, throw them out!

education is the key, FE is here to stay and as much as we do not like it, nitro is declining rapidly, especially as the RC population ages with it...

NITRO FOR THE WIN any day...I MUCH prefer a test day at the lake with nitro, over an FE boat, you can get some much more done.

Im new and younger-ish and I agree nitro is best. frustrating at times but way more fun. I try to get some of these youtubers that have 109 FE boats to open up to gas or nitro and its like herding cats. I fear this hobby is about done altogether cause almost nobody under 50 seems interested in clubs and racing. let alone nitro.

 

[Bill Gibson]

If FE is the future, how come we are still only seeing 6 boats MAXIMUM (for each class that is) turn up at the largest outboard only event in 2022? Ask the same question for 2023 and 2024 also

Do not take this as a negative...I love FE boats, but they are not the same as Nitro, they are not raced the same, the milling time is not the same.

FE racing is HECTIC! usually lower skilled drivers with way overpowered boats lol

Electric models in general are the present and the future of all forms of modeling!
There is no lacking of SKILLED DRIVERS in FE! As a matter of fact there is a bunch!
Im a nitro guy too! People are even switching to electric in Control Line airplanes!

 

[Kris Flynn]

Electric models in general are the present and the future of all forms of modeling!
There is no lacking of SKILLED DRIVERS in FE! As a matter of fact there is a bunch!
Im a nitro guy too! People are even switching to electric in Control Line airplanes!

Yes there are very skilled drivers in FE also...

But I think the problem these days is that people used to do stepping stones and go from an A/3.5 Outboard or an A/3.5 Mono to learn their "craft", then step up to bigger and faster boats.

No people want to built twin gas riggers and 6S Riggers and over power the heck out of stuff.

I watch the videos from the Texas FE club and see exactly what I am talking about...I love the enthusiasm and involvement, but at some point people get over their stuff or just races being wrecked by careless driving. Do not get me wrong, there are "racers" that have been doing this for 20 years and are no better!

People need to learn to use what they have properly thats all...

Anyway, I went sideways

 

[Kris Flynn]

Here is my 4S1P outboard tunnel setup. This setup is about a 4kph (2-3mph average speed) off Darin Jordan's 2lap world record boat, which is the fastest official outboard tunnel over 2laps (1/3 mile laps).

Full setup info is in the title of the castle data log

I would call this a Fantastic heat racing setup...boat is pretty stable and happy. Add another 10kph (which would be easy) and things change quickly).

As you can see, the amp draw is not that high. You could prop down, or run lower KV motors and drop the amps considerably.

Carl, is your drive toward outboard riggers (rather than tunnel hulls) because they are easy to build? Cheaper to build? Just different?

The G30 tunnel is doing great things with getting people into the outboard scene, so thank you to Zippkits and all involved in keeping this going. People are quickly finding the limits of this design though, so hopefully some things in the works help people with the net level of cheap hull to move into.