IMPBA noise rule & dB meters

[EatMyShortsRacing]

I always voted againt it. It should be handled at a local level in accordance with local regulations and any credible guidance that the sanctioning body could offer. It should be noted that 92db is in violation of most if not all local noise regulations.

I really dont get it.... why on earth would you be so against the noise limitations???? Most people would realise that without working towards this some boaters WILL LOSE THEIR LOCAL LAKE... So do you care whether some of your fellow boaters have somewhere to run or not?

IMPBA have been sympathetic to their members by slowly decreasing the noise limits... Be thankful they didnt go straight to 80 or 85db!!!!! "Going back to 95" as you put it is not helping the situation... its delaying and hindering the process. The issues so far have not been the ability to get boats under the limit, but in the actual measuring process and the only way this will get smoothed out is with experience... so let everyone get that experience...

It should be noted that 92db is in violation of most if not all local noise regulations..... measured from where and how???? And what really has this got to do with going back to 95db??? So you think that because we may not meet some local noise regulations we should then say screw it we might as well be even louder and attract more negative attention to ourselves??? A cop might let you off at 5mph over the limit, so does that mean you want to get let off at 10 mph over?

 

[piper_chuck]

I always voted againt it. It should be handled at a local level in accordance with local regulations and any credible guidance that the sanctioning body could offer. It should be noted that 92db is in violation of most if not all local noise regulations.

That's fine for a club that wants to operate in isolation. However, what happens if their members want to attend races at clubs with more strict noise requirements? Do they expect that people from other clubs, who have quieter boats are going to want to go to their races and be subjected to the din? Having an organization wide standard ensures that any member can go to a race at any club and know they will be within the rules.

The part I just don't get is why some people are so obsessed with making so much noise! Do ear splitting straight pipes somehow enhance the boating experience? Does having your ears ringing for hours/days after a race give people fond memories? Is partial deafness some kind of badge of experience?

I remember when I first got into boating in the 80s. When I bought my first inboard, OPS .45, I intentionally chose the muffled pipe. The guys I was running with couldn't understand why I wanted a quiet boat and I didn't get why they felt they needed to make so much noise. Twenty years later, I still don't get it!

 

[Joe_Knesek]

This thread isn't about what the db should be set at. Its purpose is to help determine the best way to measure it. Unfortunately the Evansville club is getting bad press for doing the right thing and enforcing the rules as written. Rules that lack the clarity to ensure a boat measures the same from site to site.

Measuring the boats while on the water doesn't make any sense to me for a couple reasons. My ears hurt when the boats are started in the pits not while they are on the water. The boats are closest to those who complain when they are started in the pits or back at our tents. Measuring them while on shore allows for an accurate reading that is repeatable.

I'd propose that we use the distance conversion charts available on the International Measures & Standards website to convert our current db standard to one that is 3 feet behind & 1 foot to the side of the boat. Specify the exact brand & model of db meter to be used & certify it each year against a standard. Have the pit boss randomly measure 1 boat per heat in a designated area away from other boats when the heat goes on the clock. If the boat fails during the startup, let them race the heat but then recheck the boat after the heat to verify the results. If they pass, they get their points. If they fail they loose the points for that heat. If they fail again in another heat, they pack it up for the weekend. Also give the CD the ability to spot check boats at their discretion.

To account for the possibility of a meter being out of calibration, require the club to recalibrate the meter if a set percentage or number of boats are disqualified at an event with the cost being paid by those who were disqualified. If the meter does not certify, the club reimburses the racers. Another potential way to fund the certification could be to collect $5.00 from those who fail the first timebefore they get to race another heat. If they get disqualified in a later heat the club keeps the money. If they pass the remaining heats, they get it back.

I'm sure I've missed many requirements but my goal is to offer an alternative that we can explore. I think this will keep the racers honest but also charge the clubs with the duty to maintain the measurement equipment. It also addresses the issue of the boats being too loud in the pits. If this seems to be a viable alternative, I suggest we test the concept for the rest of this season while leaving our current rules in place. Only put it up for a vote if we feel it's a better process than we have today. The last thing we want to do is change the rules only to find we've messed up.

 

[EatMyShortsRacing]

Joe,

You might run itno problems there. Yes the boats are very noisy in the pit area, but you are also a lot closer to the boats. Also the boats spend the majority of the time at full throttle under load on the water. A boat not under load on the bank will give a false reading.

You would also have to hold the boat in an isolated manner while testing on the bank as vibration (noise) could also be transmitted from the boat hull through the boat stand and into the table...

Local authorities are not worried how loud it is in the pits... they are worried about how much noise escapes the area and annoys the locals. This is why local laws in general can be complied with because of WHERE they measure from. 92db may be over their limit but when they measure from outside the lake area the noise from the boats will be less than the 92db, depending on distance / terrain.

 

[Joe_Knesek]

"You might run itno problems there. Yes the boats are very noisy in the pit area, but you are also a lot closer to the boats. Also the boats spend the majority of the time at full throttle under load on the water. A boat not under load on the bank will give a false reading."

That's why we would use the conversion tables to set a new standard that would account for the differences in distance.

"You would also have to hold the boat in an isolated manner while testing on the bank as vibration (noise) could also be transmitted from the boat hull through the boat stand and into the table..."

If the boat is stationary it would be up to the racer to deal with these issues. If they build a stand that increases the db then hold the racer responsible.

"Local authorities are not worried how loud it is in the pits... they are worried about how much noise escapes the area and annoys the locals. This is why local laws in general can be complied with because of WHERE they measure from. 92db may be over their limit but when they measure from outside the lake area the noise from the boats will be less than the 92db, depending on distance / terrain."

If we set a new pit noise standard it can account for the this.

 

[piper_chuck]

"You might run itno problems there. Yes the boats are very noisy in the pit area, but you are also a lot closer to the boats. Also the boats spend the majority of the time at full throttle under load on the water. A boat not under load on the bank will give a false reading."

That's why we would use the conversion tables to set a new standard that would account for the differences in distance.

And make measurement even more complicated?

"You would also have to hold the boat in an isolated manner while testing on the bank as vibration (noise) could also be transmitted from the boat hull through the boat stand and into the table..."

If the boat is stationary it would be up to the racer to deal with these issues. If they build a stand that increases the db then hold the racer responsible.

This completely misses the main problem. Boats are louder on the water than on the pits. They are also running on the water much longer (hopefully) than in the pits.

"Local authorities are not worried how loud it is in the pits... they are worried about how much noise escapes the area and annoys the locals. This is why local laws in general can be complied with because of WHERE they measure from. 92db may be over their limit but when they measure from outside the lake area the noise from the boats will be less than the 92db, depending on distance / terrain."

If we set a new pit noise standard it can account for the this.

This will result in people figuring out how to have a boat that's quieter in the pits with absolutely no regard to what it's like on the water. The problem is the noise that escapes our racing sites and bothers the people in the surrounding area, not just the noise in the pits. We should be measuring the sound that's going in the direction that's most likely to endanger the site, not just on the front straight, in the pits, or whatever other relatively unimportant location someone dreams up.

 

[Ron Olson]

There is still going to be local ordiances to deal with people. I don't know if I want to run my boats in the City of Portage now knowing what their dB laws are. I need to find out what the City and Township of Kalamazoo's laws are so that I don't get ticketed. You might want to see how they do their measurements also.

Those that have race sites had better check into what your noise ordinances are also as John Law is going to over-rule whatever the dB level is for whatever sanctioning body you run under. They couldn't give a rats ass as to what the IMPBA or NAMBA's rules are if their max noise level is a lot lower. One of these days a race will get shut down after pissing off somebody wanting a quiet Sunday.

A local flying club (Kalamazoo Thunderbirds) has just lost their site also because of noise complaints. Their new site was in the middle of nowhere yet got complaints so now they're looking for a new field.

 

[dave roach]

Why not put a dubro 241 fitting in the stinger and run water into the stinger to quite the ext.

my .002 cents

Dave Roach

 

[Wesleys Custom RC]

You were talking about the "noise" being louder in the pits. At the Nats it was verry loud under the tent but durring some of the races I was at the outdoor restaurant on the lake. I noticed that you couldn't hardly hear the boats starting up intill they were on the course. I am assuming that most of the noise was concentrated and stayed under the tent. That may be something to think about if you are hosting an event in a public area. Just my 3 cents worth.

 

[speakerboy]

now settle down for a minute .....

i just read 10 pages about DB.s meters , sound pressure level , muflers , etc etc .. i have read some good comment and some bad ones .. i think Dave Marles put the it the way it is .. but after page 7 i realized something else .....

here in europe we had lost some ponds due to sound problems , the clubs who have their own pond have to meet the BD limit of less than 82 db .. thats a fact and not discussable .

i am a gasboat racer and i produce a pipe that meet our european rules , several guys from the USA bought this pipe for me and are pleasant suprized, not only with the sound but also with the performance. i keep hearing the same story over and over . that you are losing ponds becouse of the DB limitation .

now sit back and ask yourself a question ...... DO you want to make your boat more SILENT ???

in other words , do you want to loose another race pond ? Do you like to run boats ? Do you want to be confronted with the DB limit over and over again ?

its not about meeting 92 DB its all about making the boats way more silent than that, 92 DB is WAY TO LOUD !!!!!!

if we race boats ore turtles , its still racing .. and we run 50 , 55, 60 mph too with mufled pipes no problem ..

if we can do that , than you can do that too .. but do you guys WANT that ............

Jerome

 

[Bart Drieghe]

now settle down for a minute .....

 

 

i just read 10 pages about DB.s meters , sound pressure level , muflers , etc etc .. i have read some good comment and some bad ones .. i think Dave Marles put the it the way it is .. but after page 7 i realized something else .....

 

here in europe we had lost some ponds due to sound problems , the clubs who have their own pond have to meet the BD limit of less than 82 db .. thats a fact and not discussable .

i am a gasboat racer and i produce a pipe that meet our european rules , several guys from the USA bought this pipe for me and are pleasant suprized, not only with the sound but also with the performance. i keep hearing the same story over and over . that you are losing ponds becouse of the DB limitation .

 

now sit back and ask yourself a question ...... DO you want to make your boat more SILENT ???

 

in other words , do you want to loose another race pond ? Do you like to run boats ? Do you want to be confronted with the DB limit over and over again ?

 

its not about meeting 92 DB its all about making the boats way more silent than that, 92 DB is WAY TO LOUD !!!!!!

 

if we race boats ore turtles , its still racing .. and we run 50 , 55, 60 mph too with mufled pipes no problem ..

 

if we can do that , than you can do that too .. but do you guys WANT that ............

 

Jerome

 

In addition to jerome's reply , you'll all have to pull on the same wire .

 

Going back to the 95 db is a joke , is 95 the max db ? no it aint , i'm sure you can get an engine above that number . so lets assume someone goes over that 95 db , he gets DQ , oh wait , stupid rule , lets go to 97 DB ?

 

Bite through it and get the db's down . I have the feeling that too many people focus themselves on the 92 db , why 92 , get your darn boats below 90 db ! It won't matter then where you'll race , when you'll race . A different pond won't make your boat 5 db louder .

 

Regards ,

B

 

[R.J.West]

Maybe we can convert all of our nitro burners to Electric. :lol:

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

Years ago I think about 96 or 97 I ran a quiet pipe on my 60 Hydro. I think it was a Rossi 45 Quiet Pipe. Well I didn't know just how quiet it was but it was so much quieter I thought it was cool so I left it on there. My dad and I kind of stumbled upon it. We had it lying around and decided to test it. I didn't hinder the speed at all so we left it on the boat. Later on we find out that it was about 82 db. You could actually here the water slapping against the sponsons. Even later we clocked the boat at 71 mph in heat racing tune. That was pretty good speed for late 90s. My dad had 20 mono that was so quiet it sounded like it was electric. At the distance specified by the rules... the boat didn't even make a reading. That was also a quiet pipe. Since then we have switched over to the MAC engines and just have not tested anything other than the CMDI recommended. Perhaps we should start. For a while we were the Poster boys for quiet boats.

One other thing to consider...

As far as losing and keeping ponds. It may help to do a little bit of PR in the near by neighborhoods these lakes are in. It wouldn't hurt to distribute a flyer announcing your race as well as perhaps making a comparison of the noise to say a next door neighbors lawn mower or leaf blower. I belie they are around the same as far as DB meters go...

An introduction to local government helps to. We have invited Two Mayors, the Vice Mayor, and the Councilman for the area in regards to our Grand Prix Classic Race. The result is now... if someone disgruntled member of the community shows up to a City Council meeting with a bad report their will be people their that can speak up for us. This has worked so well the Mayor is working with me directly to move us to a better venue that will expose the Hobby to more people.

Be both reactive and proactive.

 

[carlnoki]

ONE VERY IMPORTANT thing to remember folks,

those that have lost either their ponds or flying fields not only lose them to the INDUSTIAL FOR LUNCH BUNCH, but also if they are located any where around a residential area of sorts, and everyone has been trying to make their boats/ planes, ect QUIET, IT is also due to the PITCH of the engines, not just the noise generated by them. (DANG, i would get very a very poor grade for this sentence, TOO LONG!!!!!!!!!!!!)

most all people in general don't mind a LOW in pitch sound of a motor, it is the HIGH pitch that most everyone finds being offensive. (but unfortunately, we as boaters have no choice in where our motors operate at)

Something to think about........................

carl

 

[Charles Perdue]

Guys, first I want to say that the Evansville Boat Club did a great job of putting on the Internats and equally enforcing all the rules to the best of their ability. BUT THE EVANSVILLE RACE IS HISTORY. You can not change history but you can learn from it. We still have some learning to do about how to bring our boats under the DB limit and enforce it fairly. Suggestions: 1- Enforce the rules as written, keep them simple, use the KISS technique, it is for the good of all boaters. 2- A GOOD DB meter that is calibrated, certified, kept certified and used consistently. 3- If the boaters that want to try to walk the tight-rope and run their boats at 91.99 DB they can expect to be disqualified sometimes when all of the conditions are not in their favor such as shore geometry, rocks, buildings, multible boats running, wind direction, stars and planets not aligned, ECT. That is their choice. 4- Taking the DB reading in the pits when the engines are not loaded will not be accurate. Also asking someone to change their needle setting for maximum sound after a lot of them have gone to the added expense of spending an extra day at the lake to get this right will cause mutiny. You think they are grumbling now about conforming to the DB limit, just try to pull this trick and you won't be able to hear the engines running above the sounds of their screaming. 5- The wheel doesn't have to be reinvented. The technology is avaliable to make these boats quiet and competetive and is already in use. We haven't been bashful about BORROWING others ideas and speed secrets in the past. 6- The boaters that figure out how to run FAST and QUIET first will be leading the pack and the others that just want to argue will be also-rans. We either have to pull together or we will continue to loose boaters and sites. This isn't going to please everyone, it isn't written too. It is written to try and bring us together on the DB subject. Just my humble opinion. PS. The traveling trophy for the TWIN SHOOTOUT at Huntsville this spring was won by a good running and very quiet boat.

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

Perhaps Andy Brown has time to chime in about this issue and maintaining performance. He races at the World's so has experienced the extreme noise reduction rule but maintained performance. If I remember correctly he spoke to me about meeting the NAVIGA requirements but still maintained the ability to push his K-90 powered SGX to over 90 mph.

So if I am correct. There is your proof of quiet high performance. It's just a matter of us choosing to move in that direction. People will make what the people demand. If it's quiet pipes you want... before long it will be quiet pipes you will get.

 

[John Finch]

Wow, I never heard so much about noise. I have been testing noise for at least 20 years. I did a whole series on noise for R/C boat modeler back when no one seemed to care much about it. The method we are using was the method I found most accurate for the longest given time of measurement. The problem is us WANTING quiet boats. Point...........I am running a gas hydro with a stinger muffler. It meets requirements for noise, but when I run the boat in the back yard all the neibors come out and watch. That in itself is not a problem unless one of them has a headach one day and decides to call the cops or go to the civic association. Realising this, and also wanting to run my boat in the back yard, I have been experimenting a lot on Pipe noise. SO........Get this........I purchased a 78 db quiet pipe and tested it for noise and performance. It gives me the same speed as my midwest 2 inch band pipe and the neibors don't even know the boat is on the pond because it does in fact read 78 db on the meter. Not too long ago my wife was in the dining room doing chuch paperwork. I went out in the back yard, only about 100 feet from the dining room, and ran my boat for half an hour. I came back in the house and she didn't even know I had been running the boat. Another neighbor who had been wanting to see the boat stopped by and watched. He said he saw the roostertail but didn't know what it was, so came by to check it out. He didn't say " I heard it" he just saw the roostertail! That's where we need to be.

 

[Piston1]

If you are running in your backyard with all your neighbors around, etc, etc., I agree 100%.

 

[Scott Norris]

What pipe got you 78 DB John?

 

[Don Ferrette]

What pipe got you 78 DB John?

It's a gas pipe Scott but I am going to test one on a big block 90 in the coming weeks.