Don F, Debate Here.

[T.S.Davis]

so come up with some printable safety guidelines so somewhere down the line some shmuck attorney doesn't come along claiming some injured party wasn't properly warned.

The manufacturers do that. We did it too. There are guidlines written into the prposal. Nobody cares. AHHHHHH RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! LiPo fires everywhere!!!!!! Frustrating. Especially when there have been no boating race incidents that I'm aware of. That big list and no boating fires. Well, at least I think there were none. I can't know that can I.

Sorry Don. I just get confused. Everytime I think I know what the anti LiPo arguement is it changes on me. One minute it's that we're all going to die a firey death in a LiPo fire. The next it's that we have to make it "fair" for everyone. Then it's the money will rule arguement. Then it's the danger of really fast race boats. Then we go back to issue one and hash it all out again. Over and over and over and over. For 3 years we've been arguing about it in FE circles.

It may not be you making all these arguements but it's really hard to keep up with the paranoia. Half the time we're arguing with folks who've never even seen a LiPo cell.

BTW I argued against LiPo until the 3rd generation cells hit the market. I didn't feel they were ready. I was reduced to calling Paul names at one point.

Pauls' a better driver than I. He's GOT TO BE STOPPED! It just isn't fair!

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Then for smaller established classes allow a cetain amp peak as then what kind of power source, ESC, or cell count you run doesn't matter as you exceed the accepted class rating you pop the fuse. I'm tossing out ideas here folks which is more than I can say for some of the input on this. Can someone tell me why something like that won't work in definitive terms? I guess that's too simple or, more likely, takes the advantage. <_<

Because current is not the smooth, stable measurement that you think it is. It spikes with changes in load, like the prop leaving the water or entering the water again or debris hitting your prop.

Even something like letting off the throttle sharply can cause an unusually large spike. If you let go the trigger to avoid running into a boat the strays into your lane, do you deserve to lose because your fuse popped? That sounds like some racing fun!

 

[Pagemaster]

PLUS!
We have access to a variety of NiMh currently. Off the shelf cells can't take near the pounding that a matched zapped set of hiugh performance cells can. The pricing can range from $3 per cell to $12 per cellIf we were to somehow try to equalize this new technology with the old do we equalize it to the ability of the 3000mah unmatched Nimh? or the unmatched 3300 or the matched 3700 or a match IB4200. Joreg test 39 differnt types of cells in his quest for 140 mph. Is his research fair to the guy buying cells at the LHS?

There is always going to be inequity in racing as skill levels vary. We're not racing IROC here.

Funny, I ran out of time for the nats this year and had to run a few WELDED TAB STICK PACKS in several heats! My setups were pretty quick.

I just need to learn to drive. But I will NEVER get to learn how to drive in traffic because things are so expensive people don't want to race around here!

You guys on the unlimited lipo restrictions kill me. On one hand you want to run elitist classes on the other hand you want more people to become involved. :blink:

I bring the kids to local car racing in my area. Sometimes 200 plus 2 liter race cars show up to race. When was the last time 200 f1 cars showed up at the same race? The economical versus elite. You have to be on one side or the other. You decide where fe will go.

Steven

PS I can buy a car capable of being a top 5 winner for less that $5k

That's about what 3 fe boats will cost next year.

 

[T.S.Davis]

Nice Steve.

Pulled it out of my a$$.

Promatch 1.24v/cell 425 sec loose are $79.99 for 6. That's $13.33 per cell if my math is right. Somebody check my math please. I'm not to be trusted. I was obviously way off. I did get a sweet set of Orions for $72 once. They were the same cells the local indoor track guys were using for competition every weekend.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Then for smaller established classes allow a cetain amp peak as then what kind of power source, ESC, or cell count you run doesn't matter as you exceed the accepted class rating you pop the fuse. I'm tossing out ideas here folks which is more than I can say for some of the input on this. Can someone tell me why something like that won't work in definitive terms? I guess that's too simple or, more likely, takes the advantage. <_<

Because current is not the smooth, stable measurement that you think it is. It spikes with changes in load, like the prop leaving the water or entering the water again or debris hitting your prop.

Even something like letting off the throttle sharply can cause an unusually large spike. If you let go the trigger to avoid running into a boat the strays into your lane, do you deserve to lose because your fuse popped? That sounds like some racing fun!

That you Kevin for a straight up answer to a question or idea as opposed to some others who instead of offering some constructive rebuttal choose to act like children & spew ridicule. If you don't ask you don't learn. If you don't cover your ass it will eventually get burned. If you don't challenge the norm you don't move forward or find new & workable ideas or heaven forbid a flaw in the current system. I think for now I'll put that FE 1/8th scale on hold. <_<

 

[Pagemaster]

Nice Steve.
Pulled it out of my a$$.

Promatch 1.24v/cell 425 sec loose are $79.99 for 6. That's $13.33 per cell if my math is right. Somebody check my math please. I'm not to be trusted. I was obviously way off. I did get a sweet set of Orions for $72 once. They were the same cells the local indoor track guys were using for competition every weekend.

Man thats the same cost as the 2 6cell ib4200 stickpacks I raced, retailed for.

Steven

 

[sjslhill]

Oh Jeff Rowe suckered some people in on those $13 cells......I can make those numbers look however you want them to look. Hey, I have some new High Tech super hush hush LiPoly cells here.....only $300 a cell, made in special factory in North Korea. So powerful the CIA is looking at them. :lol:

Nice Steve.
Pulled it out of my a$$.

Promatch 1.24v/cell 425 sec loose are $79.99 for 6. That's $13.33 per cell if my math is right. Somebody check my math please. I'm not to be trusted. I was obviously way off. I did get a sweet set of Orions for $72 once. They were the same cells the local indoor track guys were using for competition every weekend.

Man thats the same cost as the 2 6cell ib4200 stickpacks I raced, retailed for.

Steven

 

[JfromJAGs]

How about if you guys ban me from racing.

I tested 39 diffent type of cells (it was more, I forgot some 10 the last time I counted), I deleloped my own charging method, we in the team build our own 300A power boards for BL controllers (which became prototype for the 31.170), we in the team designed and build our own carbon hulls, we got prototype motors (did'nt come to use them though), we had home made hardware on the boats, we helped to develop the 6mm gold plugs, I developed and casted my own propellers. We were the first to try air brakes for SAW boats, the first to used piano wire for those powers, we did this and we did that.

It was a hell of a lot of and very hard work to do that and if YOU'd be fair, you would respect that. It was not only money (which I earn the hard way too), it was most engineering, time and dedication. Again, I'm as arrogant to say, I deserve the 140 record and I'm proud of it. I'm just sorry this stupid turtle was in my way.

But if this is too much for you, ban me and you'll be fine. Or make rules so danm watertight it won't happen.

Merry Christmas,

Joerg

PLUS!
We have access to a variety of NiMh currently. Off the shelf cells can't take near the pounding that a matched zapped set of hiugh performance cells can. The pricing can range from $3 per cell to $12 per cellIf we were to somehow try to equalize this new technology with the old do we equalize it to the ability of the 3000mah unmatched Nimh? or the unmatched 3300 or the matched 3700 or a match IB4200. Joreg test 39 differnt types of cells in his quest for 140 mph. Is his research fair to the guy buying cells at the LHS?

There is always going to be inequity in racing as skill levels vary. We're not racing IROC here.

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

That you Kevin for a straight up answer to a question or idea as opposed to some others who instead of offering some constructive rebuttal choose to act like children & spew ridicule. If you don't ask you don't learn. If you don't cover your ass it will eventually get burned. If you don't challenge the norm you don't move forward or find new & workable ideas or heaven forbid a flaw in the current system. I think for now I'll put that FE 1/8th scale on hold. <_<

This subject (and almost every thread that I have seen related to it) just makes people loose their minds.

We get the sky-is-falling crowd. All electric racing will cease to exist. The pits are going to look like the napalm scene in "Apocalypse Now". Only Donald Trump and Bill Gates will be able to afford racing. The biased cost comparisons. The abundance of LiPo fire stories without even the slightest attempt to quantify just how rare these events are. Even had one "someone is going to die!!!!!!".

What it is really all about is that LiPo batteries offer the very first chance for electric racing to get enough run time to make it as attractive as the other fuel sources.

Running 1/6 mile courses, full mill starts, more than 3 heats per day/per class, matching up with some IC classes, these are the things that the new batteries offer.

I think the cost differences are being greatly exaggerated. The massive increase in run time will attract far more people than an increased expense will scare away.

 

[T.S.Davis]

It was a hell of a lot of and very hard work to do that and if YOU'd be fair, you would respect that. It was not only money (which I earn the hard way too), it was most engineering, time and dedication. Again, I'm as arrogant to say, I deserve the 140 record and I'm proud of it. I'm just sorry this stupid turtle was in my way.

NO! Joerg, something got lost in translation. I don't mean that at all. You earned that 140. You deserve it. Absolutely.

My point is that the we can't make this new technology equal to the old technology in favor of leveling the field for everyone. NiMh doesn't measure up to LiPoly where performance is concerned. We can't make it fair between them.

In the same sense I haven't access to a person that can custom 300 amp board for SAW. I don't have the education to build it myself. Does that mean that your entry is not fair to me? I don't think it does. It makes you more dedicated and probably plain old smarter than me. But not unfair to me. The cells your using aren't the same as the cells I'm using. They're better because you've taken the time to make sure you have the best that you can find. If I decide now to use LiPo instead of a NiMh because it's the best I can find. How is that any different?

 

[Darin Jordan]

Again... would someone PLEASE show me where in the NAMBA rulebook the safety regulations are concerning the handling of Nitro fuels? That's stuffs pretty explosive, and I'm SURE that there are regulations SOMEWHERE in that book to cover the safety concerns of Nitro fuels being used around all those electric accessories (glow starters, electric starters, etc.) and hot motors...

 

[Pagemaster]

Again... would someone PLEASE show me where in the NAMBA rulebook the safety regulations are concerning the handling of Nitro fuels? That's stuffs pretty explosive, and I'm SURE that there are regulations SOMEWHERE in that book to cover the safety concerns of Nitro fuels being used around all those electric accessories (glow starters, electric starters, etc.) and hot motors...

Please point me to all the photos of nitro fuel fires that have burned down houses and cars?

I'm interested in reading them to compare the two.

Steven

 

[sjslhill]

There are none that I am aware of, that's why there is no list. The fuel is not explosive. Nitro works because of Nitrogen, it's not explosive. IC engines do not work on explosions, they work on expanding gases. Smokeless Gun powder works the same way. Black Powder is the explosive.

Again... would someone PLEASE show me where in the NAMBA rulebook the safety regulations are concerning the handling of Nitro fuels? That's stuffs pretty explosive, and I'm SURE that there are regulations SOMEWHERE in that book to cover the safety concerns of Nitro fuels being used around all those electric accessories (glow starters, electric starters, etc.) and hot motors...

Please point me to all the photos of nitro fuel fires that have burned down houses and cars?

I'm interested in reading them to compare the two.

Steven

 

[Dennis Whitt]

Holy CRAP,theres more fires and explosions going on around here than any lipo worries I might have.

Jorge,Jou just keep on doin what your doin.Because the fact is all of the hard work and effort you put forth filters down to us every day guys anyways.

I know I have done a little lipo pushing as well but I also have faith in my fellow modelers that they will get it sorted out.Maybe not on the first round of propasitions but none the less it will get worked out.

Any good racer is just gonna sit down and a build a leagal boat so that he can go out and have FUN(remember that word) racing other guys that sat down and built there legal boat and thats that.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Please point me to all the photos of nitro fuel fires that have burned down houses and cars?I'm interested in reading them to compare the two.

The fuel is not explosive. Nitro works because of Nitrogen, it's not explosive. IC engines do not work on explosions, they work on expanding gases.

First off... Nitro-methane is the same stuff that causes Top-Fuel Dragsters to blow their blowers off when pre-igntion occurs... It may not "explode", but it causes the fuel to burn very rapidly...

Last time I checked... the danger of lipos is the same thing... They don't "explode"... they burn violently, and rapidly...

Second... As an example....

The most common causes of house fires are... (reference: http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/residents/home/hfs.htm )

Kitchen

• Stovetop fires caused by fat or oil burning over to hotplate or splattering nearby.
  
• Leaving cooking on a stove unattended
  
• Check the proximity of electric cords, curtains, tea towels and oven cloths to ensure they are at a safe distance from the stove.
  
• Be careful of long, flowing sleeves on dressing gowns contacting gas flames.
  

Bedroom and lounge room

• Oil burners and candles left on at night or left burning while occupants are away from home
  
• Bedside lamps with incorrect wattage globes installed. Many bedside lamps are designed for 60 watt globes only
  
• Smoking in bed: ensure butts are extinguished before placing in bins
  
• Electric blankets: never leave the house without switching them off. Never leave heavy objects on the bed when the electric blanket is on - be especially careful of pets
  
• Laundry
  
• Clothes dryers: always clean lint filters after each load. Avoid drying bras in your dryer as the underwire can get caught and start a fire
  
• Flammable liquids: store flammable liquids such as petrol, kerosene or methylated spirits away from heaters and hot water service pilot flames
  

Fires caused by heating appliances

• Fireplaces without screen guards. Never leave an open fire alight when you leave the house or go to bed. Extinguish all flames and embers completely and ensure ashes are cold before discarding them.
  
• Clothing drying too close to heaters or open fires
  
• Incorrectly installed flues on wood heaters and stoves
  

I am certain there are more house fires caused by any of the above items than will EVER be caused by the use of Lipo cells... Perhaps the lawyers are not looking at the right activities...

 

[Jeff]

What really bothers me is Don brought up an insident where someone sued. Why were you not using a radio impound? Have you been using a radio impound since? Why have you not made spectem radios mandatory now that they are avaible? I meen if Don is really cocerned with safety like he claims this would be so. It is 4:33cst now. I chalange Don to in the next 24 hours to stop this insanity and propose specterm radios as mandatory. For a few hundred bucks each we could all be safe, come on Don is about safety or what, the clock is ticking...

Jeff

 

[JfromJAGs]

What are "spectem" or "specterm" radios?

 

[Pagemaster]

First off... Nitro-methane is the same stuff that causes Top-Fuel Dragsters to blow their blowers off when pre-igntion occurs... It may not "explode", but it causes the fuel to burn very rapidly...

 

Last time I checked... the danger of lipos is the same thing... They don't "explode"... they burn violently, and rapidly...

 

Second... As an example....

Darin that's the best you can do? I thought for sure that when I came back you would have a huge list of fires caused by rc fuel.

Especially since you keep pointing to it as being a major concern that namba does not do anything about. Just razzing ya bud!

Steven

 

[JfromJAGs]

. double .

 

[Kris Flynn]

A Few things,

1.Great to see that Jeorg, Kevin W, Dennis W, Don, and Steve (plus the others who always have been) are interested in posting more on here...keep it up

2.Steve H whats with the personal attacks man?

3. Jeff, can we please have a last name