Don F, Debate Here.

[Andy Greene]

Gee sorry honey...can't go to work today...I might get into a car accident, hurt someone and get sued.
Nope....not gonna live my life afraid of potential dangers. Take precaution but not gonna run away and hide.

If any of you nitro/gas guys want some experienced opinions of us FE'ers running with you guys contact some of the Performance Model Boat Club members.

Alan,

Actually all of the racers that attended the Charleston Model Boaters race this past October were treated to some excellent FE racing by the world record holding Hammerhead H2O Racing Team from FL. And we hope to see much more at our National Outboard Tunnel Championships in March 2007 when we have 2 FE OB classes being offered. Hopefully a good foothold in the southeast for FE racing is being created. Come join us.

Merry Christmas to all.

John

John , your spot on about the Hammerhead guys. Its good to hear they represented themselves as they did. A push in the proper direction, and not an all for me effort. Decent couple of guys also.

 

[John Knight]

Andy,

They did very much indeed. And so did the 3 FE racers that came in from the Atlanta area as well. They had a lot of fun, taught us all a lot, learned a lot themselves and earned a invitation back to next year's races. Our Oct race will not only include the FE mono class but a FE hydro class for them as well. If they can muster a FE tunnel class together, we can do that too. We are open to consider whatever the FE racers want to bring in. Afterall, racing is racing. And the invitation is good for our western (Paul & company), our midwest (Alan & company) and any other FE racers that want to come and enjoy good boat racing. Honestly we fully recognize that there are very few racing venues available for them and we are trying to put some in place for them. Can only be good for us all. We are all part of the same brotherhood.

John

 

[Andy Greene]

Andy,
They did very much indeed. And so did the 3 FE racers that came in from the Atlanta area as well. They had a lot of fun, taught us all a lot, learned a lot themselves and earned a invitation back to next year's races. Our Oct race will not only include the FE mono class but a FE hydro class for them as well. If they can muster a FE tunnel class together, we can do that too. We are open to consider whatever the FE racers want to bring in. Afterall, racing is racing. And the invitation is good for our western (Paul & company), our midwest (Alan & company) and any other FE racers that want to come and enjoy good boat racing. Honestly we fully recognize that there are very few racing venues available for them and we are trying to put some in place for them. Can only be good for us all. We are all part of the same brotherhood.

John

John, If everone involved could think with the open mind that you are ,we would all be better for it in the long run. Its too bad that a few have built a wall that prevents this thought process.

 

[Don Ferrette]

John, If everone involved could think with the open mind that you are, we would all be better for it in the long run. Its too bad that a few have built a wall that prevents this thought process.

...... and who was this directed at if I might ask? :blink:

 

[Jeff]

He said everyone, so I asume humans not missing links :lol:

Jeff

 

[Andy Greene]

John, If everone involved could think with the open mind that you are, we would all be better for it in the long run. Its too bad that a few have built a wall that prevents this thought process.

...... and who was this directed at if I might ask? :blink:

I'll never tell......

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Don,

I own a business, my business needs to be covered. Anything I sell could cause problems, sharp props, fast boats, whatever. So yes, LLC and liability insurance is needed. It isn't about selling lipo batteries, that's NOT a big money maker. Neither is selling to the "race" community. If I relied on racers to make a living I'd go broke. Also, sorry I took the time to quote you on your comments and respond to them individually. It's clear to me that your just interested in stirring the pot, you obviously don't have the knowledge base to back up your comments so I'll leave it at that.

And as far as your ammoniums contributor, what he wrote is useless. Comparing a brushed slot car motor to a brushless setup in a boat shows me he has no clue, and no balls.

Paul.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Don,
I own a business, my business needs to be covered. Anything I sell could cause problems, sharp props, fast boats, whatever. So yes, LLC and liability insurance is needed. It isn't about selling lipo batteries, that's NOT a big money maker. Neither is selling to the "race" community. If I relied on racers to make a living I'd go broke. Also, sorry I took the time to quote you on your comments and respond to them individually. It's clear to me that your just interested in stirring the pot, you obviously don't have the knowledge base to back up your comments so I'll leave it at that.

And as far as your ammoniums contributor, what he wrote is useless. Comparing a brushed slot car motor to a brushless setup in a boat shows me he has no clue, and no balls.

Paul.

I'm just interested in stirring the pot and have no knowledge? What a cop out Paul, I still can't get over how some are trying to say amps are not part of the FE power equation, what a crock of sxxt. I always want what's best for all & look at the big picture. In this case I see things I don't like & have yet to see anyone of you step up with anything solid other than to spout off that I don't know what I'm talking about. If you want to turn tail & run that's your choice but I still want answers & suggestions on how to make this "new technology" safe & fair FOR ALL CONCERNED. So far all I've seen is people denying the simple FACT that amps are 1/2 the math to make power & nobody seems to think there is a major safety issue that needs to be addressed. Case in point that you being a "business man" can perhaps understand. If someone is going to make something to sell would he produce something for which there is no demand? Of course not. So with that in mind tell me why you can buy bags to attempt to contain the flames & heat when a lipoly pack catches fire?

Sad part is I see some seemingly simple answers to the other part of my concerns but some do not want to hear them because it might take away the advantages. <_<

 

[Pagemaster]

Don I can't blame Paul for the "LLC" part of his business, that was a cheap shot at him. It was a smart business move.

My company will be doing the same in 2007. Not because of lipo, because of the people in this country can never stand up

and take responsibility for the problem they have brought on themselves. Instead of feeling hurt or bad after an accident, they see dollar signs.

I agree we need limits set. But I also think there needs to be open classes for the big boats.

Lipo safety? What does anyone suggest? We can see that the smallest packs to the largest

packs can burn up if not treated or charged correctly. All we can do is make sure at sanctioned races the correct equipment to

handle these will be there. Not sure what else is possible.

Steven

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

We can see that the smallest packs to the largestpacks will burn up.

Steven

That should be "can burn up" or "could burn up", not "will burn up". Using the wrong terms around here is just like throwing gas on a fire.

Just too many people ready to pounce on any misinformation that they can to try and make a point. The fantasy 400 amp boat is a perfect example.

 

[Pagemaster]

Ok Kevin its fixed.

"fantasy 400 amp boat is a perfect example."

Your right 400 is high considering the parts on the open market.

I'm planning on about 270-300 continuous. That's from a twin motored boat of course.

Steven

 

[Don Ferrette]

Steven, the LLC was and is not meant as a "cheap shot", it merely serves to prove a point, as was the part about the guy who caused his own accident because he was stupid & still tried to sue the IMPBA & almost succeeded. Common sense should have tossed that clown out on his ass but that's not how it works, lawsuits & litigations are very real these days as much as we hate to admit it. There are two issues that concern me & one is the safety factor with these lipo's. The IMPBA has given a blanket green light without any regard to the safe use, handling & preparedness in the event of a fire. I don't want to see someone get seriously injured before someone drafts up safety guidelines. You FE guys know more than us IC guys so that burden falls squarely on your shoulders. Some seen to think that because there have been no fires (yet) that we don't need to address it, that is a very dangerous approach. The reason that, for now, you only hear about the plane guys having fire issues is simply because they are way ahead in the usage, they jumped on this technology because of the huge weight factor advantage, a big issue in planes. As FE boaters continue to embrace lipo power the odds for the mishap will greatly increase, what's wrong with being prepared instead of leaving our collective asses hanging in the breeze ... again.

As for the other part of my concerns. Anyone who tries to deny the fact that there are distinct performance advantages in lipo's is full of it. Sure you can cherry-pick examples that, in certain instances with certain pack choices they seem almost equal but it's just as easy to see where there will be disadvantages as well. I am & always have been one who believes in things being fair for all regardless of it being gas, nitro or in this case FE power. Not too long ago things seemed simple for you FE guys, parts of structuring classes was based on the total cell count and the amps part to me didn't seem like a problem at the time since it was limited by individual cell capacity. Enter lipo's, now you have a different scenario, packs that don't adhere to the conventional cell count & are capable of delivering far more amperage than nicad's or nimh's with alot less weight. So what you have now is the ability to produce alot more amps in the same weight & sizing as the sub c's. Right off the top the advantage goes to the guy running lipo's. And as for the angle played of more run time, we still run the same amount of laps in a race. Do you really think someone is going to switch to lipo's because he has enough reserve power to run say 10 more laps after the race?? Of course not, they're going to dump as much juice thru that ESC and to the motor that they can without smoking them because they will be faster. Once again - voltsxampsx=watts=horsepower. Now someone suggested a limit with the use of an in line fuse, that sounds interesting makes things simple again to me. Who cares what kind of power source you have or you cell count or your capacity, you over draw the class amps rating & the fuse blows. Hmmm, seems like a 2 for 1 deal, you level the field & add a degree of safety at the same time. Any reason we can't talk about this type of approach rather than some doing nothing more than saying I don't know what I'm talking about?

If kicking the hornet's nest is what's needed sometimes to get the ball rolling and start people talking/discussing/arguing then so be it if anything positive comes out of it. Hey it worked in the Gas Nats thread. The two gentleman in charge of the event read & listened & guess what, there are open classes at the Gas Nats this year, a first. Those of you ampheads who go to that please be sure to thank those two so it will happen again in the future. B)

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

The formula: voltsxampsx=watts=horsepower is simplistic.

The amps part of the formula ends up being only a fraction of the current you listed because of losses in the wiring, the connectors, the motor, etc.

There is no controller available that will deliver even half of your 400 amps to the motor (with the exception of one-offs that Joerg & co. have produced for themselves). The controller can't deliver half of your fantasy 400 amps. Then, there will be the losses that I listed. You can't anywhere near half of your Fantasy 400.

There is no fuse needed. The controller is the fuse. Limit controllers to commercially available models, take away Joerg's home-brew monsters, and even half of the Fantasy 400 can't ever be reached.

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

I'm planning on about 270-300 continuous. That's from a twin motored boat of course.
Steven

So long as your prepared to be disappointed.

 

[T.S.Davis]

wait! I think I see something that Don is missing or doesn't realize.

We expect NiMh to go by the way of the doe doe bird. Not over nite or anything. The plane guys are using them. The car guys are already selling them and starting to race them. Once that happens NiMh will get scarce. The cost on LiPo is getting better every day. Legislating equality between the two technologies can not happen. The performance is superior with LiPo. No arguement there from anyone. If there were no gains we wouldn't even be having a debate.

As for the what if's regarding safety. Anybody ever seen the top of a Nimh boat explode? Glad that was in the water and not on the bench. Might have been a deck to the forhead. Happened. Once. Saw it. Will it happen every time? Not likely. I never saw it again.

That failure list includes first and second generation cells, crashed cells, learning curve messes.

The safety is an issue but it's not fair to say that "they will explode, burn, flame out". Nimh can too but that's not to say they will. Props can cut off your finger. Doesn't mean they absolutely will. At what point do we take responsibility for our own safety? The equipment doesn't make itself safe. We do. If I don't slow down in the snow is it the cars fault? Should we make driving in the snow illegal?

 

[Don Ferrette]

The formula: voltsxampsx=watts=horsepower is simplistic.
The amps part of the formula ends up being only a fraction of the current you listed because of losses in the wiring, the connectors, the motor, etc.

There is no controller available that will deliver even half of your 400 amps to the motor (with the exception of one-offs that Joerg & co. have produced for themselves). The controller can't deliver half of your fantasy 400 amps. Then, there will be the losses that I listed. You can't anywhere near half of your Fantasy 400.

There is no fuse needed. The controller is the fuse. Limit controllers to commercially available models, take away Joerg's home-brew monsters, and even half of the Fantasy 400 can't ever be reached.

Ok will you people get over this 400 amp fantasy thing as, again, it was only an example of the mathmatical formula. Geez!

I'm not referring to fusing 400 amp monsters, I'm talking about the current here & now classes so as to make everything equal. You know, kinda like restrictor plate racing in NASCAR. Add a couple "unlimited" classes so those who choose to can go totally crazy, the "top fuel" class of FE, sorta like what we do with the twin nitro monsters. Then for smaller established classes allow a cetain amp peak as then what kind of power source, ESC, or cell count you run doesn't matter as you exceed the accepted class rating you pop the fuse. I'm tossing out ideas here folks which is more than I can say for some of the input on this. Can someone tell me why something like that won't work in definitive terms? I guess that's too simple or, more likely, takes the advantage. <_<

 

[Don Ferrette]

The safety is an issue but it's not fair to say that "they will explode, burn, flame out". Nimh can too but that's not to say they will. Props can cut off your finger. Doesn't mean they absolutely will. At what point do we take responsibility for our own safety? The equipment doesn't make itself safe. We do. If I don't slow down in the snow is it the cars fault? Should we make driving in the snow illegal?

Terry where did I say ANYTHING about making something illegal??? It's all about being pro-active & covering your asses when it comes to safety. Sure, it's a pain in the butt but because of the scum sucking bottom feeders that also go by the term lawyers we don't have much choice these days. I don't like it either but it is a plain & simple reality we face, why wait for something to happen? You all are smart guys & know the risks in handling, charging & use so come up with some printable safety guidelines so somewhere down the line some shmuck attorney doesn't come along claiming some injured party wasn't properly warned.

 

[T.S.Davis]

PLUS!

We have access to a variety of NiMh currently. Off the shelf cells can't take near the pounding that a matched zapped set of hiugh performance cells can. The pricing can range from $3 per cell to $12 per cellIf we were to somehow try to equalize this new technology with the old do we equalize it to the ability of the 3000mah unmatched Nimh? or the unmatched 3300 or the matched 3700 or a match IB4200. Joreg test 39 differnt types of cells in his quest for 140 mph. Is his research fair to the guy buying cells at the LHS?

There is always going to be inequity in racing as skill levels vary. We're not racing IROC here.

 

[sjslhill]

Terry,

It is my preception that your always thinking high end, high end, high end. This is where things had gotten totally out of control and why NIMH cells have failed. Where in the hell does NIMH cells cost $12 a cell? Joreg is running 32 cells together, not 6 or 8 or 12.

I am sick of this bull ****....you can take those 6 cell, 150 amp brushless motors and stick them.

regards,

Steve

PLUS!
We have access to a variety of NiMh currently. Off the shelf cells can't take near the pounding that a matched zapped set of hiugh performance cells can. The pricing can range from $3 per cell to $12 per cellIf we were to somehow try to equalize this new technology with the old do we equalize it to the ability of the 3000mah unmatched Nimh? or the unmatched 3300 or the matched 3700 or a match IB4200. Joreg test 39 differnt types of cells in his quest for 140 mph. Is his research fair to the guy buying cells at the LHS?

There is always going to be inequity in racing as skill levels vary. We're not racing IROC here.

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

In nitro and gas, does everybody have the exact same carb? I think they should. At least every class should have a designated carb. It would certainly make the racing more equal. Kind of like restrictor plate racing in NASCAR.

Or perhaps a data logger connected to a fuel flow monitor. Sort of like on the Unlimiteds. Read the fuel flow monitors after the heats. If you exceed the limit, you are treated like an N2 violator and disqualified.

You are just looking to make it all fair, right? :lol: