AUSTRALIAN Electric Events

[jasper]

Yea thanks Andrew better send me a copy.

I won't have an electric ready for BOB but I'll sure get one ready for next meeting.(plus you already have plenty for hydros)

I've also attached an areial pic of our facillity in Sunny Yarrawonga /Mulwala.

I've also got a meeting with the race commitee to disscus you rule alterations.

 

[Andrewg]

Yea thanks Andrew better send me a copy.

I won't have an electric ready for BOB but I'll sure get one ready for next meeting.(plus you already have plenty for hydros)

I've also attached an areial pic of our facillity in Sunny Yarrawonga /Mulwala.

I've also got a meeting with the race commitee to disscus you rule alterations.

DRAFT PROPOSAL

AUSTRALIAN MODEL POWER BOAT ASSOCIATION ELECTRIC SPECIFIC RULES

Italic text are explanatory notes and not part of the draft proposal

17.1 INTENT AND DEFINITION

To establish a national standard for electric motored model race boats.

17.2 POWER / MOTOR SPECIFICATIONS

17.2.1 POWER AND SAFETY (Rule changed to allow current cell technology and safe operation of same)

1. Allowable chemistries are

* Nickel Cadmium (Sub-C size ie 23mm diameter)

* Nickel Metal Hydride (Sub-C size ie 23mm diameter)

* Lithium Ion

* Lithium Polymer

2. Any charger used at a meeting of any sort must be specified by the manufacturer as suitable to be used with the cell chemistry being charged or discharged;

17.2.2 MOTOR CLASSIFICATIONS

1. 700 Class motors are Mabuchi 775 or Johnson 785 motors which have not been opened. Accomodates existing practice

2. An Open Class motor is any electric motor.

17.2.3 MOTOR CONTROL

1. A model must have a means of starting and stopping the motor via radio;

2. Models using lithium, cells must have a low voltage cutoff device to prevent over discharge of lithium cells (safety)

17.3.1 700 & 700 PRO CLASSES

(Lipo is imminent. 700 mainly offers improved acceleration and corner speeds and handling. Lipo packs of 4s (3700) and 5s (2500) will be on the market by XMAS for under $200 – these will be 20-30c packs, weigh half a nickel pack , capable of running a 700 or 700 pro.)

1. A class designed to promote equitable and inexpensive competition, based on a 15v power pack and Mabuchi 775 or Johnson 785 motors.

2. Table 1, (below) sets out the hull power and motor combinations allowable

TABLE 1 Volts and cells for 700 classes

MOTOR-> ...................700...........700 Pro

HULL...............Volt...Nickel/LiPo...Nickel/LiPo....MOTOR

Mono...............15........12/4............16/5..........Mab775/Joh785

Rigger.............15........12/4............16/5..........Mab775/Joh785

Tunnel.............15........12/4............16/5..........Mab775/Joh785

Hydro..............15........12/4............16/5..........Mab775/Joh785

17.3.2 POWER CLASSES FOR OPEN MOTORS

(Simple class structure to provide inexpensive entry level classes; improve fit with NAVIGA ie 15v = Mono/Hydro 2 and 26v=mono/hydro3 classes; and take advantage of higher power input of commerically available electronic speed controls.)

1. Table 2 (below) sets out the nominal voltage (taken from specifications published by the manufacturer) for each power class. Each class is benchmarked against an internal combustion engined class. This is not intended to indicate parity in 2005/2006 season but rather the situation reasonably considfered to prevail by the 2007/2008 season.

TABLE 2. Motor Class and voltage/cell count

CLASS........Nickel Cells.............Lithium Cells

..............(XseriesYparallel)........(XsYp)

700.............12s1p.......................4s1p

700 Pro.......18s1p.......................5s1p

15v.............12s1p.......................4s1p

26v.............20s1p.......................7s1p

48v.............40s1p......................12s1p

48v*2.........Up to 40s2p.............Up to 12s2p

17.4 HULL SPECIFICATIONS:

17.4.1 OPEN MOTOR CLASS

1. Hulls using open class motors will unless noted, conform to

the specifications of Sections 7 (ie hull shapes)

2. For Scale Hydros; with the exception of 1/8th Hydro which will

run up to 48v:

a. 15v class will be a minimum 28” long ie 1/12th

b. 26v class hulls will be a minimum 35” long ie GP7.5cc

c. Hydroplanes from any class of racing may be used as the

basis for these models;

d. In other respects the hull will conform with Section 19:

Grand Prix Hydro 7.5cc

e. 48v motored scale hydroplanes will conform with Section

13: 1/8 scale Unlimited Hydroplane

17.5 RACING:

17.5.1 OVAL RACING

1. Section 8 of the Official Rule Book applies with the following exceptions:

i. In addition to the 300 and 250 metre ovals described in Appendix 1 of the Official Rule Book Electric races may be run over 10 laps of a 150 meter oval.

17.5.2 HEAT LENGTH

1. The race length for all classes is 1.5 km

17.5.3 RACE STARTING PROCEDURES

1.it is recommended he be started under Section 8.3.2 Clock Time: 5, 6 & 7 of the AMPBA Competition Rules.

(Basically boats can do a half course mill after launch prior to end of pit time till 10 seconds prior to the start – this integrates starting with existing procedures)

3.Generally the race will proceed under Section 8.7.1 Regulation Courses parts 1-7 except where the shorter 150m course is used and the total and minimum laps will be increased to 10 and 6 respectively. .

(This means electrics run the same laps as nitro and petrol on the same sized course and there is a shorter course for smaller ponds – but races are same distance to minimize setup change between large and small courses)

In summary:

* 5 main rigger & mono classes 700/pro 15v 26v 41v and 2*41v

* 3 Scale hydro 700/pro, 20cells; 32 cells (1/8th)

* 2 Outboard Tunnel 700/pro 20cells;

* 2 Offshore/Inboard cat 700/pro 32 cells

* Allows current commercial cell chemistries

* You get entry classes which can be adapted to run in the 15v/12 cell open classes as is mooted for Mulwala in 12 cell mono ie you get an upgrade path for little money

* Main thrust is to migrate electrics toward similar hulls and performance levels already popular in RC marine competition

 

[Andrewg]

sounds good now where can i get a bl motor speed control and outboard

kris needs some competition down here

www.fastelectrics.com?...........

As well as the Neus I have a Hacker B508XL which has had 3 packs thru it since a factory service. And another I have which has never been overheated and which just replaced the bearings in which I have to reseal. Tell me what controller you want and I will obtain it. The Castle 125's very good value at the moment.

 

[PDU]

Let's not forget that these are suggested changes only and actual rule changes must be made in the correct way.

Peter

 

[Andrewg]

Let's not forget that these are suggested changes only and actual rule changes must be made in the correct way.

Peter

Peter

Rest assured none will be made. 12 years as Advisor and Ministerial CofS administering legislation has given me an understanding of the need to follow due process in introducing and supervising the passing of legislation. Hence the extensive public consultation here my site AMPBA site and email groups, prior to taking it forward. My opinion carries one vote re the contents of any submission, as will anyone elses - unless they yell very loudly! ( or bail me up against a wall as one MP once did)

 

[David Kingston]

why voltage limits.

i understand because lipo cells have different voltage but they can be made up to the same or slightly less than then standard 6, 12, 18, 24 cells.

I would like to see classes writen as

6 cells, 7.4 volts

12 cells 14.8 volts

18 cells etc

if we have to take into consideration for lipo then (i dont know the voltage of them so correct me, but go with me here.)

6 cells - consideration lipo - 8 volts

12 cells 15 volts

you get the point.

There will be a huge increase in speed when lipo are run in boats, but i think that we are looking at 5 years till that happens. lets just stick with the sub C cells for now. They dont run lipo in the US races yet. maybe for 1/8th classes

 

[Kris Flynn]

Hey Andrew,

I will talk more with Greg about FE on our road trip tommorrow h34r:

Kris

 

[Andrewg]

"why voltage limits"

So you dont have to restate the classes every time you get a new cell technology.

6v etc

I would not retain low voltage classes they are expensive small boats which are the hardest of all on cells. As fast as 700's and twice the price. The 700s are a better entry class on price, ease of setup, relaibility and maintenance. They are a lot easier on cells.

the steps in voltage cells

Iwas thinking 12 & 20 ie 14.4 and 24v are naviga equivalents. 40 cells is where controllers are at present. Also more cells in series is a less expensive way to get runtime rather than paralleling cells in packs of 32.

If you use 12 cell with meaningful and even gradations to where controllers are now try 12 18 27 40 cells.

ie 50% increase with each step (I still ahve a hankering for a twin 40 cell rigger)

Also we dont have enough people to field the classes we have now. I suggested this structure with a view to keeping classes focussed, with power options and similar as possible to nitro because the cost of electrics is falling rapidly.

Re lipo it is imminent - In a year the market will be flooded with 20/30c lipos. It is much easier to put the framework in place now while we have the chance. We could cut costs further by going 3s 6s 9s 12s lipo classes? Just anopther way to use the weight benefit to increase the hobbies accessibilty

 

[David Kingston]

simple

6 cells 12 cells 18 cells, 24 cells

for a average hack boater - myself included. When you want some cheep packs. Go to your local hobby shop, what do you get. Cells made up in packs all in 6 cells.

i make my own packs so i can do 20 cells, but what is the point. Bigger controler, motor. I have run 18 cells in a 700 and that is enough. Im nuts when it comes to pushing something hard, but 20 cells its just sucks.

I think that the cell max should be 40 cells. and that in voltage cut off. I think other than that ask everyone what they want. Im keen to see lipo, but not right now. Right the rules for sub C nimh and nicads, include voltage. dont include lipo cells.

Lets not try make it to complex right now. I think that the focus should be on getting electrics up and running, with what the rules are now, but with nimh cells. We need to get classes sorted out have things running, and start events then worry about fine tunning rules.

 

[sjslhill]

"1. Allowable chemistries are

* Nickel Cadmium (Sub-C size ie 23mm diameter)

* Nickel Metal Hydride (Sub-C size ie 23mm diameter)

* Lithium Ion

* Lithium Polymer "

Should this not state Sub C or smaller? Why limit it to Sub C if your going to allow LiPoly?

 

[David Kingston]

my vote will be to support lipo cells but not right now.

We need to get everything up and running first. By keeping cells to sub C 1.2volts per cell and cell counts, however allowing the rule change to be volt total i think will be the easiest way. That way, the only change when everything is sorted and up and running is the cell chemistry.

that will only be a few words

Nickel Cadmium (Sub-C size ie 23mm diameter)

* Nickel Metal Hydride (Sub-C size ie 23mm diameter)

* Lithium Ion

* Lithium Polymer

Aim for the next 12 - 18 months.

12 cell 700 hydro (LSH)

12 cell 700 mono

12 cell open hydro

12 cell open mono

from there we can get more hull types and then bigger cell classes

david

 

[Kris Flynn]

Dave, I agree, let others sort out the bugs for now. Then when they are OK, we will implement the changes...

 

[Andrewg]

Kris

do you the bugs with lipo?

or wider things than that

with cells how about 12 - 20 - 30 - 40 cell classes ?

 

[Peter Zala]

Hi All, i was just reading the roostertail section on IMPBA and they are proposing 3 new classes for lipo instead of mixing the classes.

"they are proposing 03 - 2s#p, Q1 - 6s#p, T1 - 10s#p

This would be a “close” match to the existing classes and should be a good starting point. The O3, Q1

and T1 class would be any style of motor with the number of Lipo cells wired in series given before the ‘S’

and any number of paralleled cells as the owner see fit for power requirements. Example “2S#P” means;

‘2S’ two cells must be wired in series ‘#P’ any number of cells may be added in parallel to those cells that

are wired in series. Now that we have more powerful motors that can drive larger hulls.

I also think that 1/8 Scale – 12S#P, should also be added"

personally Im not convinced lipo should run together with nimh / nicad etc i also think like david and kris let the states and europe use them for a season first and sort out the bugs, there is no reason we cannot update the rules as new technology comes out and has been tested, what we need is not to set the way but first get started.

anyway just wanna make sure all points are debated for the best of our FE community.

Cheers

Pete

 

[Kris Flynn]

Kris

do you the bugs with lipo?

or wider things than that

with cells how about 12 - 20 - 30 - 40 cell classes ?

Sorry Andrew, what do you mean? I think you might have written that wrong? If you are asking me if you would like me to test some Li-po's for you, then sure

what we need is not to set the way but first get started.

Peter,

Excellent point! I think there will already be enough hazards with those petrol and nitro guys smoking near their fuels :blink:

Kris

 

[Peter Zala]

I just had another thought, i personally am currently spending around $8000 on just 2 FE boats and my 2 smaller boats which i have built are mainly for just getting fe started in australia and my wife and kids to learn how to drive, my point is that i am not scared to work hard and spend hard but i need a reason for this, and my reason some day would be to attempt speed records, build a boat and set it up so that australia can hold both water speed records rc and driven, for this i and others interested would need our rules to comply with the impba, ampba(us), naviga, and whatever else there is in order to set speed records, so for that reason i would suggest we just have the same rules as the other fe communitys so we can compete at a international level when the time comes.

I would hate to build a boat and then some day fly to a world championship fe event and find i dont conform.

i guess what i am saying is fe is growing throughout the world and we should all try and be in uniformed ruling to make the sport a truley international one.

cheers

Pete

 

[Kris Flynn]

100% with you Peter...maybe not 100% that much money, but i guess i might come close including all the backup gear and sapres and S@#T

Hence why i suggested LSH, also why I suggested going in multples of 6 with regard to cell count...Anyone can go to their LHS and get 6 cell packs for 'sport' use

Currently i am hoping to make it to the USA in 2007 for the NAMBA FE Nats so my setups WILL need to be the SAME as the USA, not 'similar'. Meaning 20cells isnot really going to be good for me...

Although people do run 16 cells in Q and win

 

[Pagemaster]

I just had another thought, i personally am currently spending around $8000 on just 2 FE boats and my 2 smaller boats which i have built are mainly for just getting fe started in australia and my wife and kids to learn how to drive, my point is that i am not scared to work hard and spend hard but i need a reason for this, and my reason some day would be to attempt speed records, build a boat and set it up so that australia can hold both water speed records rc and driven, for this i and others interested would need our rules to comply with the impba, ampba(us), naviga, and whatever else there is in order to set speed records, so for that reason i would suggest we just have the same rules as the other fe communitys so we can compete at a international level when the time comes.

I would hate to build a boat and then some day fly to a world championship fe event and find i dont conform.

i guess what i am saying is fe is growing throughout the world and we should all try and be in uniformed ruling to make the sport a truley international one.

cheers

Pete

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but I think your right on target Peter.

Align your rule or set up a Australian impba, namba or naviga organization.

I love some of the class rules in naviga. I would love to see some of them in the USA.

 

[Peter Zala]

Thanks Steve, yeh well i was speeking to my wife on the weekend and we would love to go to a world champioships one day but i would need 3 boats for son (juniors) wife and me and it would be a waste if we had to rebuild boats for those classes if we were different. I dont know if there is a FE world champs as yet but i would think the more countrys running rules in parrallel would make it easier for NAVIGA to create such an event.

happy holidays all and have fun boating

 

[Andrewg]

Some background on why the classes proposed were chosen

The current AMPBA rules are

6 cell roar stock motor

7 cell open

12 cell open

18 cell open

32 cell open

there are no rules preventing paralleling of cells

EUROPE

If you want to attend world champs you must run NAVIGA classes. NAVIGA peak world bodyto which AMPBA and NAMBA are affiliated has 7, 12, 20 cells Germany runs a 14 cell 700 class and NAMBA classes for SAW. Briitain uses Naviga with spec classes at 6 and 12 cells. As I understand NAVIGA is looking at 30 cells. Naviga classes pose two problems. they are 5 min (hydro) and 6 minute (mono), vs approx 1:30-2 minutes for ours so require a totally dofferent setup.

NTH AMERICA

NAMBA has 6, 8 12 , 18 , 24, 32 cells - the 700 class is 12 cells

IMPBA has 6 8 12 16 24 32 cells

For Nth American racing the same motors used here will be suitable

Lipo can be treated as 3 NiMH/Nicad cells each.

For SAW you have to go to SAW motors - these are low wind high current setups - generally they are not oval setups. A 12 cell motor will be used in 18-24 cell setups. Above 24 cells people move to 42 and 51 mm

dia brushless. In short the motr have absolutelky no relationshipw ith oval setups. Dont get confused

My point is this there is no consistent standard

The most racers would run under NAVIGA - nice simple structure

The setups we use currently are closest to NAMBA oval racing as long as we stick to single series cells. However NAMBA has a very democratic but unaccountable rule making system. Its easy tog et classes in hard tog et old ones out which means it has a plethora of classes - IME too many for the number of modellors in Australia

IMPORTANTLY the nitro guys who we run with only 4 classes and twins only in top end - so I sugest we do try for asimple structure and use single series cells for nickle and LiPo. THis ensures LiPo will only go into open classes when it is sorted. It also lets people play with LIPo which will run 20 C continuous more than enough for LSH and $159 for 2100 - which is sufficeint capacity for a race or $199 for 3700

Classes rationale

what are the limits? bottom end/ entry has to be price/ user friendly/sufficient performance - top end will be set by technology in this case controllers

Bottom end?

6 cells? - use small hulls, end up being relatively expensive and very hard on cells and controllers. In planes there has been a big move away from 7 toward 11 cell equivalents since the introduction of Lipo. THis gives better motor efficeincy and mroe power. IMO a trend worth noting

The 700 class is a less expensive, user friendly, relaible, flexible and as fast as 8 cells with potential for similar speed to brushless 12 cell if used on 16+ cells. So simplify and improve the user friendliness of boats and ditch the 6/7 cell classes

12 cell every one has it and its a simple 4 lipo class -> tick

Top End

Controllers are now availabe up to 40cell/50v= 13 lipo. Voltage has advantages over paralleling as it is cheaper & cooler way to get high power.

But if you want to provide I/C guys with an alternative and they are going to be majority of new electric racers provide this and we are now 1 or two boats off running this as a class.

The in between classes which step evenly between 12 and 40 cells are 18 and 27 cells.

Second class proposed was 20 cells / 7 lipos - in line with Naviga

24 cells skipped as it is too close

30/32cell- 10lipo is next point in use