AUSTRALIAN Electric Events

[Andrewg]

Re motor comparo - no it is a $65 motor. Which nitro motor can you buy for $65 without carb which will run as fast. A carb, pipe, header, muffler bracket, engine mounts, fuel tank header will cost more than an ESC. Batteries are fuel cost. Didnt we cost this out a couple of years ago?

But I am trying to make a point. People are criticising the electrics and I think for the time available equipment, experience they did well and took it all on the chin. I am very disappointed the IC guys commenting didnt take a moment to balance criticism with appropriate acknowledgement.

I watched the racing carefully today at HVMMC - In a day of racing I did not see one race where more than 66% of boats finished. Electrics at HVC were better than that yet got dissed for reliability.

I agree on the nitro course but 5 laps can be done.

Getting out of a nitro racers way - why? As an AMPBA member I pay the same fees and cop much more skepticim. It has taken 5 years to get enough guys in one place at one time to be "allowed" to race a sanctioned class. I will not say anything to relinguish that opportunity. That said I wont put an electric boat in competition till I am certain it is solid as a rock.

At any level I will be running brushless on nitro ovals. LSH/12 cell is a great entry class. With 6 more cells they can run faster and cooler and do times near a 3.5 mono By using an X438 the boat will do five laps at higher speeds and cooler due to higher efficiency, lower weight and the same or lower amps. You could go to 2200's and get more gains from lighter weight.

I will be running brushless at HVMMC. The nearest LSH is Sydney where I would run an LSH/Mono. This is what I meant about flexible. At all levels of boat racing whether its UIM APBA or AMPBA classes tend to cluster in regions rather than have an even spread. I would work with that.

Its ok to identify classes for national but what are your criteria for selection? Is it representative hull as suggested by David, or race time? (David riggers will run away from scale hydros like scales will run from monos)

Using a non-competition criteria such as "what is available" is going to get us what we have. I would aim higher, if only in cell count. Aspire a little and reap the dividend.

Which rules do you want to update? I have a draft which essentially says run the same hulls as nitro ie sport 21 sport 40 1/8. and equates cells and cc’s. (Actually if you do equate cells to CC & start with 12c =3.5cc – u would run 24c for 7.5cc and 36 cells for 11cc. and I guess 2*32 for 15cc

On the other hand 12 cell bl is running 65kph. 5 laps is only a matter of setup. Instead of an Octura X400 series go to a Graupner cf – theya re like an M series and pull fewer amps.

At nationals clearly we are expected to be more reliable than nitro. We will turn heads with speed.

I was at HV today and no radio problems – Why because the radio I used at HV Champs had a dicky transmitter (throttle channel). Took ages to identify it. Changed transmitter = no glitches. If you have radio probs at HV Champs make sure you can complete a successful range check with yours .

BTW the idea of having to have 5 boats a class is laughable. 5 entries for a class is what is the rules require. Next big meet I am counting how many races actually start with 5 boats in the heat. We could have a raffle to see who can guess closest.

David have you got a schulze? U can program reverse on most of them.

BTW I am going to have Hacker B508XL’s on market soon and EMs and good price Megas are coming back. They are better than Feigaos and cost the same in practice.

Tried a Neu in the 12 cell mono today - vs the hacker it seems very good,importantly for my particular boat it is also alittle lighter - now if I could get some flex hexes@! The one eight ran well till it blew off in a flat spin after 4 and 3/4 laps full tilt - no damage the cells didnt even shake loose I would say it is good for 7-10 laps. The speed was adequate. The handling satisfactory. It made me happy. Lots of "wish it had done that at the HV's" comments.

 

[Scott_T]

T hydro Kris?? Tell you what, you build 5 of those babies, and I don't think you'll have any worries finding drivers!

Just a couple more thoughts,

1. I would stay away from rigger classes at the moment. Plenty of nitro rigger classes, and I think electrics would be a good opportunity to offer something a bit different like sport hydros (not as many classes in nitro). Keep mono though, good way to get into it.

2. Any rule re-write should include 12 cell 700s. Even if they never race on a big course, they are definitely a club favourite.

3. 12 cell brushless would seem better to me than 18 cell 700. I would want 2 sets of packs per boat, so I would be up for an extra 12 cells. Cost, $150 (matched 3700s). Cost difference between 700 motor&ESC Vs BL motor&ESC - $150. So same cost, less batteries to charge, and less weight.

 

[raptor347]

Just my take on things from a long distance away:

If you want to run with the nitro guys, don't go below 12 cells. A good 18 cell boat is near a perfect match for a good 3.5cc nitro boat. You'll need to prop down a bit if you plan to run the full 1/5 mile 5 lap race. From a reliability stand point, electrics should be more reliable than nitro (not always the case in practice).

The other thing to think about: You need to budget like a nitro racer if you want to run with them. Figure a glow plug per heat, price of fuel, price of modded motors etc. The dollar figure goes up in a hurry.

Example: Most of the cells I ran last weekend are at best sport packs now (a good percentage aren't even good for sport), and let's not talk about speed controls <_< . But this is understood going into an event like the annual SAWs. Equipment will be sacrificed to set records!!!

As for the 18 cell/3.5cc comparison: The hull I set the NAMBA Q sport hydro record (80.78 mph) with last weekend is being refitted to run in NAMBA Sport 21 with a nitro motor (I'm not doing the refit, I gave the hull to some very capable nitro friends). The nitro guys said they would be very happy to get the sport 21 SAW record in the low 70's.

That's just my view of things, take it for what it is. Please feel free to ignore me.

Flame suite on,

Brian Buaas

P.S. The LSO record (Limited Spec Offshore) from last weekend was set using a 4 minute enduro prop and a hull with all the parts in place to run the NAMBA offshore class (rudder behind prop, big turn fins for right and left turns etc). There was no tuning, just drop it in the water and make 2 passes. If I'd set it up specifically for SAWs the record would likely be close to 40 MPH. I figured I'd let the guys who race the class regularly push the record.

 

[David Kingston]

Next event???

Ok lets work on the next event to get electrics going.

Looking at Nationals.

Who do we contact to ask permission?

Im in, Kris you should be there as it is at your back door. Scott Tappy? - you interested, im driving there. Andrew? - I also think that shane might be interested. Might also get some other folk from my club to go. I think that it would be a better place to run the electrics with out radio problems.

Andrew start getting a 700 mono and hydro together now. Ill give you a hand to work on one when i come down to newcastle in a few weeks. (we are going boating at penrith on the 11th december which is a sunday)

Lets see who is interested in the nationals

DAVID

 

[Peter Zala]

count me in Im new never been to penrith yet! probably will get there on dec 11 for a training run.

i have 1 x lsh hydro 12 cell 700

finishing 1 x 12 cell brushless mono (in 2 weeks)

and for nationals im hoping to have a 1/8th scale boat ready but that depends on when the new NEU motor will finally be finished.

I promise my boats will be 100% reliable because i will make sure they are before showing my face.

cheers

pete

 

[Kris Flynn]

Nationals,

OK Craig Knight (CraigK on here) would be the guy to ask, but i dont think he will have a problem. Finley is my home club and the guys there are great.

If Dave would hurry up and build me a Mono and set it up for me i would have one ;-)

OK, PERSONALLY I think we should stick to 12 cells for now. If you ran 18 cells and had 6 packs of 6 cells then you would only be able to run 2 times (say 8-10mins total MAX). If you ran 12 cells you get 3 runs from the same amount of batteries (say 12-15mins total) and you should be able to have one on the charge, one in the boat and one cooling down after a run. Think of it from a nitro or even a gas boaters point of view. Why would they want to carry around all the FE stuff and only get to run for such a short amount of time, when they can take down a nitro or petrol boat and run for pretty much the whole day without stopping!

Kris

 

[jasper]

I know I souldn't but here goes I'll paddle out with you all for a while!!!!

I'd like to clear some merky water first.

As some of you think I'm a narrow minded nitro/gas boater. On the contrary I've been in the R/C world since 1977(been a member of the VMAA, MAAA RCAS,and MAAQ learnt to fly control line aircraft. Then came R/C planes Patturn & Pylon & 1/4 scale, Then I raced electric cars and nitro cars , then came Helicopters , I then moved to Ducted fan and turbine jets wich where flown out of RAAF BASE AMBERLY on a weekly baises. I then moved to Yarrawonga 5 years ago and decided to build R/C boats.

I started to dable with electric versions (and I have molds for them) I could not find anyone to help me with set up and parts for'em I gave them up as a joke and went to the good old reliable nitro motor. Once I got a couple of these going An interest was growing with people sitting and watching. I consider myself to be totally approchable in giving out knowlage and helping people.

People wanted to build a model boat and get in to it.

I built boats for several people and found my self being the pit man at every outing tuneing and maintaining boats.

When I was introduced to the Zenoah 23cc water cooled engine (thanks Wacky) we now had a reliable sorce of power package that was relativly cheap and powerful. Thus the Push for Petrol engines. Not to mention no starter gear. Just a fuel can and ni-cads.

From My point if view I enjoy all aspecs of the R/C model world.

General consensus is not to tell the Electric boating world to get nicked we don't want you at our meetings.

I do belive that represented rightly FE would be welcomed with open arms.(as we know once a bad taste has been put in ones mouth it is hard to rid it)

Unfortunatly I couldn't make it to HV champs , however from what I hear (from good sources) the electrics got caught with their pants down BIG TIME. Pretty sloppy and poor knowledge of racing / rules.

OK we know this let's put this aside.

Lets start again!!! I firmly beleive that FE boaters need to form an FE commitee (possibly one rep from each state) gas boaters had to to get in the door.

If rules need re-righting then please do somthing about it and get seroius about a couple of classes.

Reading the posts here and on the AMPBA site the impression I get from FE boaters is you want the nitro /gas boater to start the ball rolling by running an event for FE boaters. You want us to do all the work and you simply tun up to race. BAAAAAR BAAAAAR...............SORRY you want in , you put in too. Attutudes like stuff the AMPBA will not do anything for your cause apart from damage it even more.

Are you all members of a club? Are you AMPBA affilliated???

Ok then put in to hold a sancioned event at your facillity. If you have never held an event then got to one and take notes & for god sake ask questions...And please lose the attitude. (at the moment FE boaters have been tared with the W@#$%&RS brush).

I have not met any of the FE boaters apart from Chris and some of the comments on the forum do suggest that this may be the case. (please don't take this the wrong way I'm mearly pointing out how I see it)

I personally think that a couple of FE classes would be good. My vote would be of a scale hydro looking boat that is reliable and that could complete 5 laps of a nitro 1/5mile layout. I would forget about being the quickest on the pond to start with and get some close tight racing together. This is far more enjoyable to watch and compete in. And yes I would help where possible. Yes I would build one to and give it a go. Would a 1/12th Nitro budweiser be ok to convert????

As I said please don't take this the wrong way It is not meant to be a sh#t slinging session.

Only to help

Thank for your time.

 

[Craig Knight]

I have just been reading this thread and as I have no idea about electrics I wont comment on classes. My questions are- What is the starting rules for electric? Nitro and gas have a start tape sequence to follow, what do electrics do? and how long should an electric boat be stationary before it is called dead? This isn't a major problem, but for a CD it is a question that has to be asked.

There has also been suggestions of running at the 2006 PC Applications Australian Nationals (shameless plug for our major sponsor) . If we do decide to run electric classes (not convinced yet), what classes would we put on the entry forms. Also,after watching what happened at the HV Champs, I think the electric guys have to remember that a lot of organising goes into race programs and I wouldn't want to see guys running into the hot pits to launch their boats just as the race is starting. My advice is do you homework and see which classes are running before you and listen for your call for the backup pits. Not hearing your name called is no excuse!

If there are enough boats (at least 5) to make a class we will consider running them at the Nationals. At the Nationals we dont want to see people entering boats that they are not going to run just so a class can run. It does no ones cause any good and don't ask if you can run with the nitro boats. We dont run petrol with nitro regardless of speed so why should we do it with electric.

Craig Knight

 

[David Kingston]

Unfortunatly I couldn't make it to HV champs , however from what I hear (from good sources) the electrics got caught with their pants down BIG TIME. Pretty sloppy and poor knowledge of racing / rules.

OK we know this let's put this aside.

AS far a racing rules the electric racers had no idea how it would be run and likewise neither did every one else. We had no idea how to start the races - has not been electric event for many years - NEWS FLASH - no on had any idea.

Reading the posts here and on the AMPBA site the impression I get from FE boaters is you want the nitro /gas boater to start the ball rolling by running an event for FE boaters. You want us to do all the work and you simply tun up to race. BAAAAAR BAAAAAR...............SORRY you want in , you put in too. Attutudes like stuff the AMPBA will not do anything for your cause apart from damage it even more.

NO WE DO NOT WANT THE NITRO GAS BOATERS TO GET THE BALL ROLLING> they have events - we want to participate in them. Yes we want in - and we will put in. At hunter valley, i got out in the rescue boat on practice day. Race day, the event organisers wanted HV club members so couldnt help out there. Dont start telling me that we dont put in. At least we walked around the pits and chatted to other boaters.

Are you all members of a club? Are you AMPBA affilliated???

Yes we all are or we cannot run

Would a 1/12th Nitro budweiser be ok to convert????

yes it would be - if you need a hand just pm me.

Now that electircs know the run down on what to do, we can work on it. I learnt lost on the weekend and i accept that i was late to get a boat on the water. It only happened once, every one learns from their mistakes. HV was not a mistake, it was a learning experience. We can do better.

 

[jasper]

AS far a racing rules the electric racers had no idea how it would be run and likewise neither did every one else. We had no idea how to start the races - has not been electric event for many years - NEWS FLASH - no on had any idea.

Yea OK was anything mentioned at the drivers brief. Did any FE boater ask to hear the start tape .(i'm sure if asked it would have been played at the brief and walked through with you all)Was any questiones raised on rules?? Simply turning up to a big event not doing any reserch on race plans is neglect on your behalf.

And just screems that your unorginased.

On you club days how are your races run???????

NO WE DO NOT WANT THE NITRO GAS BOATERS TO GET THE BALL ROLLING> they have events - we want to participate in them. Yes we want in - and we will put in. At hunter valley, i got out in the rescue boat on practice day. Race day, the event organisers wanted HV club members so couldnt help out there. Dont start telling me that we dont put in. At least we walked around the pits and chatted to other boaters.

I find it hard to belive that you had no Gas / Nitro blokes comming and looking and talking to you at this event.

Ok you my have got in the rescue boat for a while great!!! but did you help orginse any of the events???Help out with getting sponsership, raffle etc there is a bloody lot more thet goes into running a big event than manning a rescue boat.

Are you all members of a club? Are you AMPBA affilliated???

Yes we all are or we cannot run

Great!!!!! Then you know of the AMPBA and it's website. <<<<<NEWS FLASH>>>>> there is a rule book on there and its got the rules for all classes.

SECTION 4

And by submitting a entry form as per SECTION 4: competitors(monatory)

4.1 By the submission of their entry form, A competitor acknowledges his understanding of the rules.

and too SECTION 8: OVAL HEAT RACING (did you read this???) It's all here. Please read if you haven't.

Would a 1/12th Nitro budweiser be ok to convert????

yes it would be - if you need a hand just pm me.

I will if this ends up being a class that's run at an event.

Now that electircs know the run down on what to do, we can work on it. I learnt lost on the weekend and i accept that i was late to get a boat on the water. It only happened once, every one learns from their mistakes. HV was not a mistake, it was a learning experience. We can do better.

Well I hope you all put your money where your mouth is and get it up and going and not Idle talk.

 

[Scott_T]

Come on guys, let's stop arguing about HV, there were problems, and hopefully everyone has learned from them. And I hope I don't fall under the banner of having attitude or being a W@#$%&R.

Electrics do follow a different start procedure to nitro/gas, see section 17.5.1. However, due to the short notice at HV, the nitro race coutdown should have been fine. Also, according to the rules, the boats cannot stop. We have started a simple 10 second countdown at our club, but we are not AMPBA affiliated. It is working quite well for our needs.

As for classes, I'll repeat myself - I think 12 cell open mono and sport hydro would be best. 700s just won't cut it on the big course. However, there are currently no rules for 12 cell sport hydro, but they could run as 12 cell hydros of course, provided everyone was fair and didn't enter a rigger.

Jasper, your comments on reliable close racing are exactly my thoughts. The Miss Bud is a great candidate for 12 cell sport hydro. Quite a few guys in the USA are converting them into competitive boats. I have an article I can send you with photos and stuff, just PM me if you want it.

I would be happy to be a state rep for electrics if it is needed. I am not an AMPBA member yet, I'm currently checking out local nitro clubs to see which one to join. If need be, I will start a new AMPBA club for electrics up here. I have access to a great lake (but no nitro due to noise), and Tony Grinter has sent me all the documentation.

Cheers,

Scott.

 

[Peter Zala]

Scott, well said

forget hv its the past and gone, i remember 15 or more years ago when i was the first to have a 7.5cc K & B outboard in Australia, we used to run rc boats at oran race way on a little lake, the first time i turned up with my tunnel i got plenty of google eyes, today tunnels and outboards are widely accepted.

I am coming back into the sport now but i am going electric for a number of reasons,

I do beleive in order for a new power plant to be implemented in australian model boat racing it needs a whole new committee on the main organisation to answer to & give advice to the main body, just turning up to a nitro race and saying im here i wanna race wont get fe boating anywhere but kicked in the but.

I am currently waiting for my NSWMBC membership to go thru and i would be happy to put some of my time onto the ampba board to help electrics get involved.

There is room for us all to spend our money in mnay different ways.

so whos going to put there hands up to get electrics going in Aus.

Im 1

Cheers

Pete

 

[jasper]

Ok I'll put my money where my mouth is.

I don't know much about them but I'll give e'm a go too.

I bon't want to put my hand up for any positions on the commitee though. I feel it should be up to the guys that know more about them than I.

 

[RIGGERMORTISE]

did someone say electric brushless outrigger racing in OZ????? B)

Hmm I will have to see if I have room for another boat

 

[Kris Flynn]

did someone say electric brushless outrigger racing in OZ????? B)

Hmm I will have to see if I have room for another boat

There will be soon ;-) well just for fun anyways

Kris

 

[Kris Flynn]

BTW,

Jason, I got ALOT of good feedback from the talk we (and the others) had at Finley on Sunday about all of this!

Sooo have you finished the hull and is it ready to be bought yet ;-) I want a Bud

Kris

 

[jasper]

Yea still working on the molds mate.

They'll be ready soon.

Now got some good news for all you FE boaters!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've had lengthy discussions with the race commitee for the Battle of the borders and we will give electrics a go.

We have made an opening for 2 classes ONLY (THESE WILL BE OF DEMONSTRATION ONLY) you guys choose. There will however be some rules to be adhered to.

There will be trophies for 1,2,3 for each class and entry costs as per nitro / gas prices.

BATTLE OF BORDERS ELECTRIC CLASS RULES

1. All competitors MUST attend the driver brief on each day. (no attendance no race)

2. There are NO DOGS ALLOWED AT OUR VENUE (so leave e'm home)

3. AMPBA gas/nitro rules apply.(so please read the rules )

4. There will be no course layout change.(if the course is to big then run less laps say 3 instead of 5)

5. The cd start tape will start as per normal gas/nitro giving 2 min pit time however once all boats are on the water and at planing speeds the CD will Fast Forward to the 30sec milling time. The start will be as the nito / gas races.

6. No boat is to get off planing speed for the start.(this means no stopping for the start)

7. If a boat stops mid race it will be called dead and NOT allowed to continue.( speed controllers over heating no excuse)

8. Under no circumstances is a boat to be launched after mill time has started or after the race has started.

9. There must be a minimum of 5 boats entered per class. (and no dummy names to fill classes if they don't turn up then that class will be scrapped).

10.Each competitor must have his pit man launch and the driver must be on the drivers stand when pit man launches.

11. Each pit man is to depress the lap buttons for lap counter system.

12.Points will be allocated as per AMPBA rules.

Any infractions to the rules will lead to disqualification and ordered off the course.

Now Fast Electric guys, it is in your court. This is you BIG chance to rectify any wrong.

Work out the 2 classes you wish to run and let me know by PM please and entry form will be up dated. If you are serious about your cause and want to get recognized for the NATIONALS then make it worth while for all of us. Don't be cowboys and please get down off the high horse and make it enjoyable for all.

I told you I'll put my money where my mouth is. I can only hope you all do the same and don't make me look like the fool to my own club members!!!!

IT IS UP TO YOU are you serious.

 

[Tim_Duggan]

Tim,

Yes it takes lots of work time effort and money.

My idea. Stuff AMPBA sanctioned for the moment.

Invite to race in Brisbane Electric Champs (for example purpose only)

I can get prizes for concors boats, $10 entry covers trophies for winers of classes.

Just to get the ball rolling - photos, race reports, boat information, also lap times on electirc oval. I think that this alone would be enough to put something together have it posted on the web and gain the interest of Australian boaters.

Just my boat club extending a invite to Aus boaters wanting to race in an event.

The most annoying thing - not having a go at AMPBA here either - but sanctioned and not sanctioned event. For the love of the sport and hobby, we need the website to put a few words and pictures against events. I have not seen much on there for past events for some time now. To get interest with all forms of model boating there needs to be information!!!

David

One BIG question - Will participants be covered for Public Liability Insurance should something go wrong? This is the main reason for sanctioning (not to mention why we are in an Association in the first place).

It will be intersting to see what happens at the AMPBA sanctioned BOTB now - HOPEFULLY the electrics can put on a decent show and not need excuses........

 

[Andrewg]

But Tim we are all AMPBA members and the boats run will fall into AMPBA classes my bet is 12 cell mono and 12 cell hydro. Are you concerned about the "custom" rules?

Jasper the rules re stopping on course are good. Is no dogs and electric only rule? I have to laugh at myself for that one.

Also is there a practice day or open water? There is one other boat I would like to test which I dont want to race at this time.

 

[Tim_Duggan]

The insurance coverage from being in the AMPBA only effects AMPBA members and affiliated clubs - I believe the club that Scott and David are involved in is not an AMPBA affilliated club? I'd hate to be a committee person in a non-incorporated / non-AMPBA affilliated club, and get sued should something bad happen.

The AMPBA may suggest that any "event" other than a club day requires sanctioning for insurance coverage - it would be wise to check it out first.