TS2 kibbles and bits

[Nitrolizer]

I break in and run all of my motors with 60% nitro, 16% Synthetic Cool power Kart oil, and no castor. I Have no problems with motor failures. I mix my own fuel.

just another point of view....

~James

How come you break in your engines with such a high percentage of nitro? Everyone knows that very high percentage of nitro shortens the life of your engine.

Personally, I would never use more than 25% nitro if I'm not participating in a competion race. And this is especially while breaking in, because when you run the engine very rich it's not possible to go very fast anyway....

But I guess we all have our different methods. I myself prefer to be on the safe side

Javier,

Good to hear from you again. How was your flight? You were worried there for a while whether it would work to take the boat on the plane?

If anyone is interested....

My boat is completely ready to hit the water now, except for the extra-torque steering servo. The hobbyshop has finally got more servos in stock, so I'm going there on monday to buy a steering servo that hopefully works... <_<

I also ordered some props, but I'll have to go with the plastic ones for the break-in because I havn't got any help with the balancing yet. I will try to get some help from my club to balance the X440 and X640. The M440 was out of stock, so I'll pick it up later instead. Until I got any help with the balancing, I think I will mainly focus on the 1440. It has the same specs as the X440, but it's plastic instead of metal.

I also ordered a failsafe unit while I was at it which I connected to the throttle, great thing to have installed.

I guess my TS2 will hit the water on tuesday or wednesday for the first time. Wish me luck!

 

[RodneyPierce]

I break in and run all of my motors with 60% nitro, 16% Synthetic Cool power Kart oil, and no castor. I Have no problems with motor failures. I mix my own fuel.

just another point of view....

~James

How come you break in your engines with such a high percentage of nitro? Everyone knows that very high percentage of nitro shortens the life of your engine.

Personally, I would never use more than 25% nitro if I'm not participating in a competion race. And this is especially while breaking in, because when you run the engine very rich it's not possible to go very fast anyway....

But I guess we all have our different methods. I myself prefer to be on the safe side

Javier,

Good to hear from you again. How was your flight? You were worried there for a while whether it would work to take the boat on the plane?

If anyone is interested....

My boat is completely ready to hit the water now, except for the extra-torque steering servo. The hobbyshop has finally got more servos in stock, so I'm going there on monday to buy a steering servo that hopefully works... <_<

I also ordered some props, but I'll have to go with the plastic ones for the break-in because I havn't got any help with the balancing yet. I will try to get some help from my club to balance the X440 and X640. The M440 was out of stock, so I'll pick it up later instead. Until I got any help with the balancing, I think I will mainly focus on the 1440. It has the same specs as the X440, but it's plastic instead of metal.

I also ordered a failsafe unit while I was at it which I connected to the throttle, great thing to have installed.

I guess my TS2 will hit the water on tuesday or wednesday for the first time. Wish me luck!

I believe James (topfuel) uses that high of nitro BECAUSE that is what most of us run! It does shorten engine life, but to be honest, if you take good care of the motor, I dont think your going to really notice what the high nitro does to the longevity of the motor, but it sure does let these little suckers scream! Also, MAKE SURE to not run it overly rich for more then a few tanks, otherwise there wont be any heat built up in the motor thus causing the parts not to mate correctly. Anyhow Mr. Topfuel probably knows more about these little engines then quite a few here including me and you, he wouldnt suggest advise that was going to harm your motor, that is taking into consideration that you (the person/operator/etc...) have a clue what your doing........

 

[Ronald van Essen]

Indeed Rodney,

you call him mister topfuel, I just call him Gabe,

He knows about engines since he can make a K&B run as fast as Novarossi's or any other engine out there.

He studied , played and tried a lot of things until where he is now with his knowledge........

Ronald.

 

[Nitrolizer]

I was just curious why James is using such a high percentage of nitro even while breaking in, so I asked him about it. I didn't mean to imply anything special by that, and I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. I am asking people things so that I can learn, not because I want to tell them what to do.

But still, even in lack of knowledge, just by using common sense I personally will not use more than 20-25% of nitro, especially while breaking-in. The manual says that using very high percentages of nitro will shorten the life of the engine. I can understand that some things written in the manual is more to be taken as advices rather than definite rules. But what I can't understand is; what is the point with a lot of nitro while breaking-in when you're gonna run the engine very rich anyway, at least for the first tanks?

According to Jerry Dunlaps comparison test, as stated in the TS2 manual, he got up to 40mph with 20% nitro and 44mph with 65% nitro on the same boat and the same configuration. To me, that is not a very big difference but I can understand that it can be needed during a competition. But while breaking-in at your local pond all by yourself, running the engine very rich? :huh:

Even if running 65% for 3 hours only shortens the engine's life for 2 seconds more than running 20% the same period of time, that is enough reason for me not to run 65% during break-in.

I guess we all have our different ways of breaking in engines, and I guess there are many ways that works just as good. Maybe you could say that I'm not very courageous when it comes to trying out things that is said to shorten the life of the engine. After all, the engine is the most expensive part of the boat.

Please note that I'm not trying to be an expert here, since I'm not, but I'm just saying that I'll prefer to take it easy with the nitro to begin with, as I see no point in doing otherwise. If there is a point however, then please tell me and maybe I'll start to look at it at a whole new perspective

About the running temp... It will be a hard job to keep it just right during the break-in, since the needle is to be changed gradually after each tank. Many people have told me that it's not good to break it in running too cold, but I guess it's not very good to run it too warm either or else there wouldn't even exist a water cooling system.

I'll try to keep up with your advice as much as possible. Thanks.

Thomas

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

Thomas,

You better start running that engine before all your lakes become skating rinks.

JD

 

[topfuel443]

I forgot I posted in here....

The reason I run 60% for break-in and everything else, is because that IS what I also use to race. I dont run boats just for pleasure, I run boats because I race boats, and im always trying to get most out of my operations. I also dont run my engines VERY rich on break in. I do run them slightly rich, but its certainly not VERY rich. That is a pure waste of fuel and can and will do more damage than good when breaking in a motor. Basically I dont run a new engine hard, meaning I get it to operating temp (which is impossible if its too rich) and just take it easy around the pond for a few laps, and then start working the the throttle for short bursts of wide open then back down to half gradually working my way up.... the throttle is proportional for a reason. I break in an engine just like I intend to race the engine, meaning the fuel & oil content is the same. I have destroyed many engines testing different methods and this is what works for me.

I used to work on the Kawasaki Team Green Junior Motocross Team, I have seen KX 80's and 125's rebuilt at the track, fired up, warmed up, and then the throttle gets pinned WIDE open for about 30 seconds for a few cycles. That is how the engine are raced, therefore that is how they are broken in. Of course that is not the best thing for an engine, especially with no load, but when competition is priority, its what is done.

I certainly would not reccomend 60% for someone who is just having fun with a boat at a pond, basically due to cost of nitro and content of nitro. BUT, in the same respect, there is nothing wrong with doing what I do, to say you should not run anything more than X% of nitro during break-in, is just bad info. Other than maintenance (bearings ect.) Good Oil, Good needle setting, and proper running temp is what makes or breaks the life of an engine.

~James

 

[Nitrolizer]

JD,

Don't worry, the lakes won't freeze to ice until around the middle of november, so I have plenty of time :lol:

Topfuel,

Thanks for the reply. Very interesting and useful info, just the answer I was looking for. I will take what you have said into consideration when breaking-in my engine... Which will be tomorrow, hopefully

By the way... Why will it do more harm than good if I run the engine too rich when breaking in? Is it because it will then run too cold? Others have told me to run it rich enough so that it spits out fuel from the exhaust exits, but maybe that would be a little too rich?

 

[piper_chuck]

I read a thread from a guy who intentionally broke in an ABC airplane engine very rich just to see if it would damage the engine or not. At the end of the experiment, he felt the engine was fine. However, there have been enough people who have reported that excessively rich break in causes premature wear in the piston/liner that I see no reason to do it. The run it sloppy rich break in comes from a time when engines had a ringed piston and for these, the extra lubrication helped ensure it broke in well.

 

[topfuel443]

Yes, the reason is because it will not get warm enough to expand to the proper size, therefore causing more friction than intended. These little motors, especially with the lack of a piston ring, rely heavily on a proper taper seal when at running temp. The metals used in the piston and sleeve construction are designed to expand to a certain rate based on the temperature when running. Engineers have already determined this proper expansion. If you turn over a brand new engine with no plug installed, it will be very tight at the top due to the taper, if you run that same engine until it is hot, pull the plug and turn it over, it will be much easier to turn over. If you "break-in" an engine cold, the piston and sleeve (mostly the piston) will wear excessively to the point where a good seal is non exsistant at a normal temp/leaner condition. We dont want that do we?

This is not the word of God, its just what happens.

~James

 

[Nitrolizer]

Thanks Piper and Topfuel. Together with yours and all other peoples advice, I've got a pretty good idea of how to break in my engine now. Today I went to the hobbyshop and finally got a working hi-torque steering servo, and at the same time I returned the other one that was incompatible with my radio gear. Got a HS-5645MG now which works great. I also picked up some more fuel while I was at it. I will break-in the engine with 15% nitro and 18% oil, 80% of that oil being synthetic and 20% castor.

I had no time left today after I had been to the shop, but hopefully I will get a chance to finally run and break-in the boat/engine tomorrow.

I think I will compile all the posts about breaking in the engine and print it out, so I can refresh my memory at the lake if needed

Thanks to everyone for the help regarding all of this.

Thomas

 

[topfuel443]

sounds like youve got a handle on it, let us know how it goes.

~James

 

[Nitrolizer]

I'm not very satisfied with the first testruns. The boat was bouncing a lot on low to mid speeds, but there was no bouncing on higher speed (which I could only notice when the fuel was getting low since I was running rich). I was using the prop coming with the O.S. engine. I tried the 1440 instead, it just cavitated all the time no matter how hard I tried to make it get a grip on the water with the throttle. The few secs it actually would get a grip on the water, it ran very nose-up, but with almost no bouncing this time.

I just changed back to the provided prop, because my first priority is to get the engine broken in. I can worry about the settings later.

But the engine... To even get it to ignite was extremely difficult. The manual says that I have to start it on a very low throttle, so it doesn't rev up with no resistance on the prop, because that could damage the engine. When the engine started it reved up pretty much so I immediately trimmed the throttle down, but then it just died. So I had to start it over again... and again.. and again. With a hard time getting it to even ignite on every start-up :angry: Eventually, I didn't care any more about the idle-warning in the manual any more because I had to get the boat into the water sometime this year.. <_<

When I FINALLY got it into the water (without dying on me as soon it hit the water), I had a very hard time getting the engine up to temp. After a few mins running around mid-throttle I brought it in and I could hold my fingers on the cooling head for how long I wanted without getting close to burning myself.

Because of all the trouble getting the engine to start at first, I only had the time to empty two tanks before I had to go home.

Btw, I ran it quite rich, the engine went very "blurry" and went about 15-20 mph max at full throttle. According to the manual, 2½ turns out on the needle is a good way to start on the first tanks. But the engine just seemed to die 5 secs after starting all the time by drowning of all fuel, so I had to screw it in to 2 turns out. And still I got the feeling it ran too rich on the water...

One thing was good though, it didn't die on me on the water. Once I got it to run on the water, it kept going until the fuel was out. I only had to retrieve it once when the boat went out of fuel.

About the running temp, I guess I have two choices... Either to make it run not so rich to get it up to temp, but then it will get less lubrication... Or I could still break it in rich but reduce the water cooling a little.

I guess I have to go with the water cooling option. Because I don't want to lean it too much on the very first tanks.

Will have another try soon I guess... Gonna experiment with the water cooling and needle setting some more. Gotta get it up to temp somehow...

 

[piper_chuck]

Focus on the way it runs rather than fixating on the head temp. When I bring mine in, I can keep my fingers on the head for a second or two, definitely not scorching hot.

If it's too rich, extreme stubling when going from low throttle to high while on the water, bring it in and lean it a bit. As you run it more and more, you can lean it out. As far as the shore setting, perhaps it needs to run faster than you think. Avoid wide open throttle on shore. If the carb is loading up and killing the engine, keep blipping the throttle a bit so you clear it out, but don't give the engine a chance to get up to full RPMs.

 

[topfuel443]

Ditto to what Piperchuck said... get the motor running where it starts to clear itself out on the water, and you should be getting close to where you need to be. Dont worry about how many turns the needle is out and all of that other stuff, its depends on all of the variables as to where your needle setting is. Just as an example, the last OS I had on a Lynx was running at about 1 1/4 turns out. Thats a HUGE differenc than what OS "Recommends". If you get the motor to start running in a "2cycle" state, the temp will sort itself out.

Dont get too frusterated, this happens with EVERY new boat/engine combo...

The fact that you actually got it to run on the water the first time out, is more than some can say

~James

 

[Nitrolizer]

The carb was never more than 1/4 open when starting it and running it on shore. So I guess I shouldn't be worried about that then.

When I bring my in I can keep my fingers on it for an unlimited amount of time, it's warm but not warm enough for me to have to remove my fingers after a few secs. Many people are saying that it's not good if I break it in too cold, so I'm getting a little worried about this... :unsure:

James, can you describe the "clear itself out on the water" part for me? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.

If I get the engine to run in a 2-cycle state, then it would be too lean for a break-in. At least that's the case with all airplanes and car engines. Engines need to be rich enough to run in a 4-cycle state while breaking in, am I not right? I'll rather run it too rich than too lean while breaking in.

So the needle setting in the manual doesn't have to be correct? Ok, that's good to know. Screw the manual then, I'll just listen to the engine instead and set the needle accordingly :lol:

But it's good to know I'm not the only one who have experienced this. I guess I should wait with being disappointed until the engine is broken in and I've had a chance to experiment with different engine settings.

Thanks piper and James

Thomas

 

[piper_chuck]

The carb was never more than 1/4 open when starting it and running it on shore. So I guess I shouldn't be worried about that then.

When I bring my in I can keep my fingers on it for an unlimited amount of time, it's warm but not warm enough for me to have to remove my fingers after a few secs. Many people are saying that it's not good if I break it in too cold, so I'm getting a little worried about this... :unsure:

It sounds like it could go a bit leaner.

James, can you describe the "clear itself out on the water" part for me? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.

If I get the engine to run in a 2-cycle state, then it would be too lean for a break-in. At least that's the case with all airplanes and car engines. Engines need to be rich enough to run in a 4-cycle state while breaking in, am I not right? I'll rather run it too rich than too lean while breaking in.

Actually, very few plane engines require a 4-cycling state. This would typically be done on a ringed engine. Most instruction manuals for ABC type engines suggest running them a bit rich, just like the OS boat engine manual.

So the needle setting in the manual doesn't have to be correct? Ok, that's good to know. Screw the manual then, I'll just listen to the engine instead and set the needle accordingly :lol:

But it's good to know I'm not the only one who have experienced this. I guess I should wait with being disappointed until the engine is broken in and I've had a chance to experiment with different engine settings.

Rather than waiting to be disappointed, look forward to when you can start leaning it out. I first ran mine in March. It's been getting progressively faster since then. I still haven't found out how faar I can lean it, the engine has never died on the water, at least not while the boat was upright.

Thanks piper and James

Welcome!

 

[Nitrolizer]

The engine should be broken in now. I have run the boat for 7-8 tanks. I reduced the water cooling from tank 3 and up, and when I gradually leaned the engine after each tank I gradually also increased the water going through the cooling head to compensate for the leaner nedle setting. And finally, when leaning the engine for top performance, I had no water restriction at all.

Let's hope I got a decent break-in, but so far I havn't noticed any problems.

One thing though, 50% of the times I started the engine it seemed to start running backwards. I could tell when lowering the boat into the water, the boat went backwards with the stern diving into the water. I am always starting the engine as I should, going clockwise on the flywheel. Yet it seems to start running backwards around 50% of the times, very strange....

Anyway, now when the engine is broken in it's time to focus more on the handling of the boat.

I have the following issues to deal with:

1. The boat is bouncing too much from idle up to mid-speed. On high speed it runs perfect, though.

2. Too tight turns on high speeds results in a very violent hook about 60-70% of the times.

3. I don't like the overall handling in the turns, regardless of the speed. It bounces even more in the turns, and I never get smooth turns. On high speed when I turn very little it still runs smooth, but too tight turn will always result in bouncing, or in most cases hooking.

4. I got extreme cavitation when trying the 1440 prop, yet it's listed as a prop that should work fine with 3.5cc outboards. The prop nearly wouldn't bite the water. It grabbed the water for a sec, then releasing it again, then grabbing it for a few secs later and releasing again and so on. It never hold the grip for more than one second.

As for now, I have mostly been using the prop that comes with the engine. Apart from the 1440 which I tried once, I have had no time to experiment with others since I have concentrated on the break-in. The handling will probably be very diffrent when I change prop, and I'm not gonna use the O.S. prop futher on anyway. So the next time out, I'll start with different props and see what happens.

One thing was kinda funny... The boat hooked very violently about 5-6 times last time I ran it and completed the break-in, but the engine never stopped! :blink: It got completely submerged under water and when the boat reached the surface again the engine was still running, it had almost stopped but I was able to rev it up again and continue the run. It only stopped one time of all the hooks that day. Imagine my surprise when the boat dove completely under the water during the first hook, and back on the surface the engine was still running! :huh: :lol:

As for the hooking, I would really like to try everything possible before I install the recovery pads. Which is the right way to go? Higher prop setting and more positive thrust? What about the balance? It's about 9-½ inches from the back of the sponsons now, or maybe 9-3/8.

What does the c/g affect the most on the handling? The bouncing part? Or handling in turns?

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

The engine should be broken in now. I have run the boat for 7-8 tanks. I reduced the water cooling from tank 3 and up, and when I gradually leaned the engine after each tank I gradually also increased the water going through the cooling head to compensate for the leaner nedle setting. And finally, when leaning the engine for top performance, I had no water restriction at all.

Let's hope I got a decent break-in, but so far I havn't noticed any problems.

One thing though, 50% of the times I started the engine it seemed to start running backwards. I could tell when lowering the boat into the water, the boat went backwards with the stern diving into the water. I am always starting the engine as I should, going clockwise on the flywheel. Yet it seems to start running backwards around 50% of the times, very strange....

Anyway, now when the engine is broken in it's time to focus more on the handling of the boat.

I have the following issues to deal with:

1. The boat is bouncing too much from idle up to mid-speed. On high speed it runs perfect, though.

2. Too tight turns on high speeds results in a very violent hook about 60-70% of the times.

3. I don't like the overall handling in the turns, regardless of the speed. It bounces even more in the turns, and I never get smooth turns. On high speed when I turn very little it still runs smooth, but too tight turn will always result in bouncing, or in most cases hooking.

4. I got extreme cavitation when trying the 1440 prop, yet it's listed as a prop that should work fine with 3.5cc outboards. The prop nearly wouldn't bite the water. It grabbed the water for a sec, then releasing it again, then grabbing it for a few secs later and releasing again and so on. It never hold the grip for more than one second.

As for now, I have mostly been using the prop that comes with the engine. Apart from the 1440 which I tried once, I have had no time to experiment with others since I have concentrated on the break-in. The handling will probably be very diffrent when I change prop, and I'm not gonna use the O.S. prop futher on anyway. So the next time out, I'll start with different props and see what happens.

One thing was kinda funny... The boat hooked very violently about 5-6 times last time I ran it and completed the break-in, but the engine never stopped! :blink: It got completely submerged under water and when the boat reached the surface again the engine was still running, it had almost stopped but I was able to rev it up again and continue the run. It only stopped one time of all the hooks that day. Imagine my surprise when the boat dove completely under the water during the first hook, and back on the surface the engine was still running! :huh: :lol:

As for the hooking, I would really like to try everything possible before I install the recovery pads. Which is the right way to go? Higher prop setting and more positive thrust? What about the balance? It's about 9-½ inches from the back of the sponsons now, or maybe 9-3/8.

What does the c/g affect the most on the handling? The bouncing part? Or handling in turns?

Install the recovery pads. They will help greatly in the turns. A stock 1440 is not going to work very well.

JD

 

[theringwah2002]

most outboards will not hook up a stock 1440

it has way to much lift backcut it 2.8 mm

my ts2 still runs best with a cupped up x637

it's quicker with an x640 but handling suffers

Greg

My old TS2 now Murph's TS2 powered by a mac runs perfectly with a standard 40 x 53.

 

[Tim_Duggan]

Depends on the pipe and it's length Greg B)

This combo will pull more prop, but has the best heat race driveability with the 40x53. It was faster with this prop than with my X637.

Also, the engine on Murph's boat was massaged by Andy if that helps. Don't know details.