TS2 kibbles and bits

[Jerry Wyss]

Nitrolizer, If the engine is already broken-in running full water then you'll have to live

with that unless you re-size the sleeve or slightly increase the piston crown area

diamiter by several methods.

Those methods have been presented here over the last couple years, I use the small

copper pipe tubing cutters (very small) in the upper oil groove or between the oil

groove and the top of the piston.

I'm a plumber, so I have cut tons of copper pipe over 28 years and after cutting

copper pipe(with a wheel cutter) you will have a "flare" on the seperated ends you

just cut. This flare will oftentimes will have to be sanded down so the pipe will go into

the fitting.

Well, in the pistons case you obviously don't cut all the way in-two, just enough to

make a line in the aluminum which will also create a small flare on each side of the

cut line. The oil groove is the "next best" place to do this but usually it's too far down

from the piston crown, so it's less effective there.

Two words of caution, The right tubing cutter's and it don't take much to flare it

allot, making the fit VERY tight.

With that accomplished, then you can pull the water off and run it rich to break it in

all over again. With a nickle sleeve the break-in will take several tanks of fuel.

On my O.S.30VG-P-X truck engine (on a Thunder Tiger lower)I ran at least 12 tanks

of fuel at a needle setting that initially allowed the boat to go only 20 mph.

As the engine broke-in it went faster and faster with the same needle setting but

it took many,many boring runs. The O.S.30VG is aircooled with the stock head

cut-down to three fins and reduced in diamiter from stock.

On the other side, I have broken-in 2 heavily modified Thunder Tiger .21O/B

engines with the water totally off from the beginning with the stock water

head cap in place. As I found out I can get away with this in the winter months

around here with unbelievable perfomance gains. The key is to run it very rich,

so rich that the boat just putt's around the course for several laps. At some

point you will hear the engine start to rev-up a little in the corners, and then

all of a sudden it will take-off with a velocity that's staggering!

I haven't got it worked out totally for consistant heat racing starts, but for

a "WOW" factor in practice, It's quite Thrilling.

Where you live, this might be something you might want to explore, but some more

words of caution, if your too lean, like the boat takes off right from launch, just

turn around and bring it back in and richen it up.

I have got close to lean a couple times where it took off after a couple laps but

would soon lay down at the ends of the straight 2 or 3 laps later,, bring it in quick.

On those two occasions the MC59 silver finish plug body turned "blue" from the heat,

now thats got to be well over 600 degrees F to do that,,with no noticable damage

to the engine. The engine continued to run strong for 3 months of testing and well

into the racing season. But like I said above, the summer months required a change

to an aircooled head to get a little more cooling.

JW

 

[BigRed]

Thomas... just a couple of pointers... not sure how familiar you are with nitro engines but here they go....

Checking on the temperature... if you have a temp gauge that's the best.. if not you can still monitor.... to the touch the engine should feel hot to the point you may be able to hold it for about a sec without really getting burn... also to check temp I get a small drop of water on the head... if it boils on contact you are on the 300f if it vaporizes in about 3 sec without boiling it's around 250f... but if you can just hold the thing for about 8 sec it would be cold...

Here's what I did to restrict water flow to the head... It's not pretty but that's what I came up with in a rush and it has stayed there....

I putted a piece of antenna tube before the head to reduce the pressure of the water going in the head... it may not be necessary but since it's just right for me now I have kept it there On the exit I got a piece of fuel tube and opened 3 tiny holes about 1mm away from each other and plugged the hole with a round stick.... You can then slide the stick to have 1, 2 or the 3 holes uncovered for more or less water flow. The holes I made spinning the tip of a exacto knife on the fuel tube... they are very small... can't even see thru them...

It's been kind of hot here in GA and to get good operating temperature I run it with only 1 hole open..

Hope this helps you monitor your engine...

Javier

 

[BigRed]

After doing the last post I drove up to the pond to do my last run before I start taking things apart to travel back to Panama...

Results were completely positive... The bottom of the boat it's still like shown on the pics I posted previously but this time I started tilting the engine till I was able to run a clockwise oval and it's still runs good counter clockwise... I get this eventual bounce when turning but seems to happen when the boat it's switching the angle of attack on the water ripples.... If I do the normal turn and when it's about to switch on the ripple I turn a little harder to clear that faster it does just fine....

I also played a bit with the needle... got it running alot richer today and raised the prop about 1/8 more to help the engine rev up rich and man... that thing was going! I think is the fastest I gotten it to go so far... bad thing is that there's no video of it but I'm sure I'll see more of that The only thing that's still there is a very mild bounce at full speed... still need to work it off the boat... I did'nt worry much about it because if I slightly turned the boat it would still go straight with no bounce and no speed loss.. Nose is running higher than last time... ride attitude looks nice... I think I'm just going to finish sanding the boat and get a coat of paint down there and that would be it

I got a question... does anybody know if you're allowed to travel with the hull like a carry on? I'm thinking of taking everything off the boat and have it with me... Plus a aditional bag... I've traveled with a carry on bag and a laptop but not sure about the boat since it's larger... Any experiences?

Javier

 

[Nitrolizer]

Nitrolizer, If the engine is already broken-in running full water then you'll have to live

with that unless you re-size the sleeve or slightly increase the piston crown area

diamiter by several methods.

JW

That's a lot of info in that post. Maybe I will get use of all this later, but as for now I'm just gonna break in an OS engine which is new from factory, never started before. I don't have to worry about re-sizeing the sleeve or increasing the piston crown area on a brand-new engine, do I? :huh:

Thomas... just a couple of pointers... not sure how familiar you are with nitro engines but here they go....

Checking on the temperature... if you have a temp gauge that's the best.. if not you can still monitor....

Javier

You mean, there is special thermometers available for nitro engines? If so, how do they look like? Can you post a pic of yours, or maybe a link to a shop who has one (with a pic on it)?

So what is the ideal running temp when breaking in an OS o/b? If a drop of water vaporizes in just a few secs without boiling, should that be considered as a good breaking-in temp?

What about after the break-in? Should the break-in temp be hotter or colder than "after the break-in and running as normal"-temp?

 

[Ronald van Essen]

I got a question... does anybody know if you're allowed to travel with the hull like a carry on? I'm thinking of taking everything off the boat and have it with me... Plus a aditional bag... I've traveled with a carry on bag and a laptop but not sure about the boat since it's larger... Any experiences?

Javier

Javier

You mean to travel by plane???

I did travel with a boat, a 21 tunnel, as handluggage. The engine and tx where in the suitcase that goes on board. No problem what so ever. However with the new rules, I guess don't take the nitro with you.

Ronald.

 

[tmunn]

To the guys running the ts2 and stock3.5 k&b what have you found works the best for you guys.

Plywood spacer at transom as mentioned in the directions.yes or no?

Weight inside the canopy. yes or no?

Weight in the slots in the bottom of the canopy.yes or no?

Prop thrust angle?

Prop height?

Best performing height.

Anything to help a guy get in the ball park.

Thanks

Terry

 

[Jerry Wyss]

Nitrolizer

That's a lot of info in that post. Maybe I will get use of all this later, but as for now I'm just gonna break in an OS engine which is new from factory, never started before. I don't have to worry about re-sizeing the sleeve or increasing the piston crown area on a brand-new engine, do I? :huh:

No, you would not have to alter anything if it's a new engine,, but if the water and air temp is

really cold I would advise pinching the water down (at least) to near nothing.

Here's the deal, the more cooling you have, the more you have to lean the needle to create

heat for running. Now most nitro engines will always try to run rich,,fuel has a cooling effect

as well as water,, but by restricting the water cooling, it will allow more fuel to be used

(and still run) and it will have much more lubrication for the other new parts.

When the water is totally off, an enormous amount fuel and lubrication can be used, plus

the engine expands properly for correct tolerances between the moving parts and all heat

is regulated by fuel.

The result is 3 times(or more) the lubrication the engine would receive under full water

break-in,, thats the factor that most ignore concerning this method.

JW

 

[BigRed]

Ronald...

Did you take the boat and a extra bag or just the boat? and yes it's plane trip... I'm hoping to get away with a small bag and the boat

Thomas...

Yes there are basically 2 kinds or thermometers... On-board and HandHeld... I use the on-board one on my cars because it has a recall feature of the max temperature... but I only used it on the boat for a while till I got the settings right... THe onboard has a wire that you wrap around the engine's head and that keeps track of the temperature... The handheld is Infrared... you point it close to the engine press a button and it gives you a reading... I like the onboard one the most because of the recall... here a couple of pics..

Handheld

OnBoard

As far as temp.... Car engines good operating temperature is 250f I stick with that getting good results... not sure what the other boaters are running but most engine manufacturers will recomend operating temps around 230f 250f...

On the break in at the first tank I would'nt worry much about temperature... just make sure the engine is super rich literaly spitting fuel out the muffler... you probably won't even need water and would still be cold so the fuel extracts the metal particles comming off... but again you don't want to do this for too long because been so cold the sleve has not expanded and you'll be rubbing to much material off the sleeve... and then when you want the engine to heat up the sleve will expand and the piston is not going to keep the compression tight...

You might be asking well why do I need to get the temp to go up... or maybe not but here it's why...

There needs to be a balance between temperature and fuel mixture... Temp needs to be right so that the amount of fuel can be burned...

My personal experience... with no water restriction I would richen the needle and the boat went around like if I was still breaking in the engine.. there was lot's of fuel going in but not enough temp tu burn it..

Then I restricted water and it was slow for about 30 sec... then it started going faster.... then after 2 min it got really fast and then ended up slowing down... I was lean with the same needle setting.. temp went up was able to burn fuel.. rise RPM but at the constant High RPM rate the setting that cold was super rich ended up lean... so I had to richen even more.....

You will end up playing with this depending on how cold is the day and may vary from day to day or even from run to run..

Javier

 

[Nitrolizer]

I will check if I can get hold of one of those thermometers. Could be a good thing to have, not only for the boat.

Ok, I think I got most of it. But if I was to break in the engine too cold (no water restriction AND running very, very rich), would that damage the engine making the compression to not be tight?

I don't know if I got it down correctly... But when breaking in the engine, you don't want to keep the temp up on a decent level ONLY just because you want the engine to run good... But also because you want to let the moving parts expand during break-in which makes the break-in much more successful?

Is that correct?

 

[BigRed]

That sounds about right... You want the parts to shave in place close to their temperature... and the most important aspect is to make sure it's very rich...

and yes if you do the whole break in way too cold you will shave too much material off the sleve... it may not damage it but will definetly have less compression and a shorter life... just make sure above all to run it rich... fuel comming out of the muffler.. and very slow trigger response... If you can acomplish that and have the engine running a little under 200f... maybe 180f you will get a nice break in...

Did you see the pics? now that I come in they show up with a "X" :blink:

Javier

 

[Nitrolizer]

Ok, and what if I completely remove the water cooling and the engine happen to get warmer than the ideal break-in temperature, could that damage the engine as well?

Nope, I never saw the pics, each one appeared like an X.

Thomas

 

[BigRed]

If it gets a little warmer it would be ok as long as you are running very rich.... BUt honestly if you set your needle very rich even without water it's probably going to stay within the correct temp...

The pics of the temp gauges should show up now....

Javier

 

[Nitrolizer]

Yup, the pictures are showing up now Cool, I will keep my eyes open for one of those next time I visit the hobbyshop.

As I described in an earlier post, I have currently some problems with my radio equipment so I can't install it yet in the boat. But since there is only the radio and the engine left to install, I thought I could do the engine while waiting for the shop to get a new servo in stock for me.

So I visited the hobbyshop while I was in the neighbourhood and bought the O.S., but now when reading the manual I get a little confused.

I know some of you already have the O.S., but for those of you who don't I will post pics from the manual so you'll know what I'm talking about.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4273/fu...glowplugsq6.jpg

It says that I should use high-quality fuel with at least 18% oil. While buying the engine I needed some fuel for it, and the shop assistant told me that "this is a good fuel for breaking in" and sold me a bottle of fuel with 70% methanol, 15% oil and 15% nitro.

Only 15% oil while the manual says 18%? Did he sell me the wrong fuel? I'm afraid of using this fuel without my engine taking damage.

Also, you often use synthetic oil now a days as you all know. But this fuel has the old type of oil. (I don't know what that oil is called in english, but it's "ricin oil" in swedish, hope you know what I'm talking about.) He claimed that you should use that kind of oil when breaking in because that oil is less lubricative, which makes the parts rubbing against each other more, resulting in a better break-in. He also said that it would cause the engine to run hotter. I'm not worried about the engine running hot since I'm gonna break it in running extremely rich anyway, besides I have the water cooling so it's not very likely to overheat anyway.

The part that worries me is that I should use "AT LEAST 18% best quality lubricant fuel". First of all, I have only 15% oil in the fuel he sold me and second, you can't really call that old type of oil "best quality", can you? "Best quality", providing best lubrication, that would be synthetic oil, woudn't it?

What do you think? Do I dare to break-in the engine with the fuel they sold me at the shop? Or should I get some other fuel?

Any other comments?

Another thing:

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/9642/breakinginfm5.jpg

They tell you to lower the boat into the water immediately because the engine need a load when running. And I have also read somewhere that you should never try to adjust the needle-valve while the engine is running out of the water, but instead change the setting on land while the engine is idleing and throw it into the water again and so on...

But maybe it's possible, if you run the boat at a place where the water is shallow at the launching point, to have the boat running in the water but holding it with both hands so it can't move forward, and then adjusting the needle while the boat is in the water. Anyone who tried this?

And the flywheel, does it really rotate clockwise looking on it from above the boat? If you are starting an airplane engine it rotates counter-clockwise. Also, I have heard that the O.S. o/b will ignite and start running even if you accidently have the polarity of the starter connected in the wrong way...? :huh:

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

I don't think 15% nitro with 15% oil is going to create a lubrication problem if you run the engine rich. You can always ad some racing castor oil to your fuel to increase the oil content.

You don't have to rush to launch your boat once the engine is started. The O.S. has a terrific idle and all you need to do is keep the engine at idle until it is launched.

Adjustments to the needle-valve can be made at the edge of the water.

Model outboard engines are started in a clock wise direction.

JD

 

[Geraghty]

[quote name='Jerry Dunlap' date='Sep 1 2006,

Model outboard engines are started in a clock wise direction.

JD

Unless it is a Thunder Tiger outboard.....TT's start in the "counter-clockwise" direction.

 

[Jerry Wyss]

Nitrolizer, I think our good friend Javier (Big Red) has returned to Panama.

He should be in contact soon (I hope) but in the mean time I think the fuel you are

talking about contains "castor oil". Many fuels contain some castor but rarely

are there fuels that contain "only" castor oil as a lube. Castor is great for high

temp operation and usually can be used in a lesser volume ratio.

For modern engines fuels containing only castor oil is just not needed and in most

cases, not recommended.

Most RC engines today are made with much tighter tolerances and oil manufactures

have developed synthetic oils that can exceed the protection of castor without all

the problems that castor can have in your engine.

If it's total castor oil lube in this fuel that you have, it will work but I wouldn't use it

to break-in the engine.

In your case, I would follow the "needle setting" part of the instructions to get you

to the rich enough area to run the boat. You don't have to be in a big hurry to get

it to the water,, just remember, fuel has a cooling effect on the engine too while

its running on the stand. It's performance will be very low for several tanks of fuel,

so be patient and let it break-in before you start leaning the needle.

It's also better if you can restrict the water flow while running it very rich,, I pull

the water off totally and run it so rich that it barely runs and watch it gain speed

with every tank without touching the needle. But, this method scares the heck

outa most people but it does break it in safely and much faster.

Forget about holding the boat in the water running,, set the needle and drive it,,

if it takes off really fast right at first, your too lean,, bring it back and re-set

the needle.

JW

 

[Nitrolizer]

For modern engines fuels containing only castor oil is just not needed and in most

cases, not recommended.

If it's total castor oil lube in this fuel that you have, it will work but I wouldn't use it

to break-in the engine.

Yes, I think it's castor oil. It's the "opposite" of synthetic oil, the type of oil that was constantly used before synthetic oils hit the model RC market, that is.

And yes, this fuel I bought contains of 15% castor oil only with no mixture of synthetic oil. At the store he told me that it's better for breaking in. But then I guess it's not?

Why is it not recommended to use castor oil?

I talked to the guy who is in charge of the boat club I'm in, and he told me the same thing the clerk at the hobbyshop did - That if you use only synthetic oil with no mixture of castor oil, then the engine will never be broken in because the synthetic oil is just too lubricative, which will cause the moving parts not to tear anything. I hardly know what to believe anymore. But I guess that the best would be to use a mixture of synthetic oil and castor oil when breaking in? Maybe 8% castor and 8% synthetic?

How come you wouldn't use total castor oil to break in your engine?

Thanks all for your replies.

 

[Jerry Wyss]

RE: "How come you wouldn't use total castor oil to break in your engine?

Castor can leave behind deposits, on the sleeve, piston and head

where the synthetics will not. And I think castor can be harmful (eventually)

to a tapered piston sleeve fit if used in large ratios. I know for a fact that these

engines that we run (3.5cc size) were not designed to run on all castor oil fuel.

I run my mod Thunder Tigers with 2 or 3 ounces of castor added to a gallon of

fuel to help seal it's crank in the induction window area, but thats just 2 or 3

ounces,, the fuel you have has darn near 20.

There's guy's over here that have gotten the XM to run very fast in stock form,

a couple that I know are running total synthetic oil. "Klotz" seems to be the favorite

and I agree Totally in the use of that oil and it's used widely by those that mix

they're own fuel.

But the use of only castor oil in the fuel ,at that percentage, in that engine ,I would

totally disagree with your two friends :huh:

JW

Anyone else have a word?

 

[Anders_Martinelle]

I have been useing 20% castor for all my engines that i`m running 40% nitro or less and have NEVER had a problem with that.

If you have your setup right there will be very little residues from the oil.

If you DON`T have your setup right you will get a oily boat.

So you can use what ever you like, it will work but just to say that castor is good for braking in engines...... that`s BS.

Anders

 

[Nitrolizer]

Yikes! So many different opinions. :unsure: But I think I'm gonna do like this:

Since some people say that castor oil only isn't good for the engine, and others say that you need some mixture of castor oil when breaking-in because synthetic oil is too lubricative, then I'll just use both

This guy at my boat club I spoke with, he said that most guys at the club use a mix of both castor oil and synthetic oil in their fuel.

Like I said, this fuel I got has 15% nitro, 15% castor oil and 70% methanol. It's one litre of fuel. If I buy 5 litres of fuel with the same mixture, but with synthetic oil instead (15 nitro, 15 synthetic oil, 70 methanol), then I can mix the two types of fuel. Maybe I'll do a mix with 80% of the synthetic oil fuel, and 20% with the castor oil fuel. Since the percentage of nitro and methanol are the same in both fuels, only the balance between what type of oil is used will be affected.

So JW, what do you think? 15% oil in the fuel, where 80% of that oil is synthetic and 20% is castor.. That would be a little more safe for the engine, wouldn't it?

Do you think the mix of oils (80/20) is good? Or is it better with maybe 50/50 or 60/40 or something like that?

I also have another water cooling question.

Why is the inlet and outlet reversed on my engine compared to the pictures in the manual? I guess it doesn't matter which one you use as an inlet and outlet, but I'm just curious how this could be.

Can I remove the screws on the cooling head and rotate it a little if I want to? Or does the head work like a key, only fitting one way? Not that I feel it necessary to chance this setting, but it would be good to know.

//Thomas