To all IMPBA Outboard Racers.

[Carl Van Houten]

I have had quite a few people call and express their feelings about our current lack of choices for complete outboard engines and replacement powerheads. As you all know since Nova Rossi has stopped manufacturing their line of powerheads that our classes so heavily relied on, the O/S 3.5cc and possibly the K&B 1"(I'm not sure about the 1") is the only two complete outboards left available to consumers. This is a huge problem because its a hard sale to convince a new boater to surf the internet and buy up enough used outboard parts to build an engine that he or she can compete in the well let's avoid the words "sport or stock" issue for now and just say muffled class. Manufactures don't see high sales volumes in outboards and is why they are becoming so expensive. O/S started out 20 years ago at $128 each. Now with no competitive outboard to challenge them, that same engine has gone up over 500%.

Another common topic of concern that stems from the lack of engines is the wording that governs the IMPBA muffled class and mainly the part that requires that the powerhead and lowerunit be made from the same manufacturer. I have seen in the past how just the mention of any rule change can blow some people completely out of their chair but the reality is that changes are way over due especially now with such few choices of outboard engines available for sale.

Just as a heads up some are wanting to remove the same manufacturer of the upper and lower wording to help manufacturers gain interest in actually building engines and or lower units for us. SOWEGA and a few other clubs have helped save the muffled 7.5cc class by running a Super Sport 7.5cc class that requires a K&B muffler be used and along with any qualifying 7.5cc powerhead. This class is fun and very competitive because the racing is close and is basically a set up and drivers class. The IMPBA rule book over covers the 3.5cc mufflered class but makes no mention of the 7.5cc and 11cc muffled engines. The 3.5cc muffled class has been offered at he Nationals for records for many years but the 7.5cc and 11cc muffled classes can not run for these records nor compete at Nationals. This has been talked about for YEARS but to this point nothing has been done.

If you have any suggestions that would help make our outboard rules more applicable, easier to understand, changed to cover problematic situations please write me at [email protected] and express your ideas and or suggestions and I will be glad to read every single one.

Thanks!
-Carl Van Houten

 

[Grimracer]

Carl, Just to understand. You started by qualifying the lack of "after market" power heads and then switched to complete ready motors.. What of this is your comment directed to?

Thanks for taking a lead on this.... Hope you are doing well.

Grim

 

[Carl Van Houten]

I am just throwing out some of the topics that racers have been wanting to talk about. Not to leave anyone out, it's a little of both actually. Some are interested in just powerheads (mainly the modified crowd) and others are interested in the muffled classes. We make our own rules for ourselves for the betterment of our sport but some of our own rules are now working against us in some cases.

In order to see complete mufflered outboards being manufactured again we may need to look at what is keeping the people who can supply these items from making them. As it stands now, why would the guy with the CNC shop be interested in building a muffled lower unit if the rules prohibit his units from running in the class it was manufactured for? If his lowerunit passed as a legal muffled offering but he doesn't have the specialize machinery to also manufacture a powerhead inhouse to build a "complete outboard" offering he would then not be interested in the venture. Is it time to change this?

This is what many people in the South East want. I know it is not a popular idea in the north but here it is.

Okay and others have made to point that as long as nobody is making a complete off the shelf muffled 3.5cc outboard, O/S will soon have their engine at $1,000.00 each and nobody is going to buy them so they will stop manufacturing them. Plus with no 7.5cc or 11cc muffled outboard that you can buy off the shelf, you will never get people interested in those classes so they are destined to stay a dormant class in most places.

I commend the guys who would not let these classes die away and found a way to keep running them. But if K&B were to stop offering the can mufflers for these classes they will start to fade away too.

Just so you do understand, this is for the members and not my narrative. The subject is not direct because there is a lot to think about here. It will be up to the members to make the call here. What is the best direction from here? That's what I want to hear. We need to get this right.

If we just started with trying to answer this question: How are we going to make it possible to bring a complete 3.5cc outboard to market to complete with O/S? If we can not find a way to do this, O/S will price themselves out of the market and be gone. I am up for suggestions.

If you have any suggestions send them to my email.

THANKS,
-Carl

 

[rumrunner]

outlaw 21 Iam in ,any motor any lower ,think this would help if you had older motor put a can on it and go racing

 

[Carl Van Houten]

outlaw 21 Iam in ,any motor any lower ,think this would help if you had older motor put a can on it and go racing

So what you are saying you want is a Super Sport 3.5cc class like they are doing with the 7.5cc class already? Okay that would require us the drop the manufacturing restrictions that keep a mismatched engine like that from running in the muffled class. That may open some doors. They would be required to run the K&B can muffler to do that so we would also have to make it clear that The K&B can is allowed on any type of powerhead and lower.

 

[rumrunner]

And the os mufflers

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Got it. Yes, that would probably be the muffler to use for sure. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Paul Renna]

Carl

I have been concerned about this also, but I've kept quiet because I have struggled getting these produced.
I worked in an Aerospace machine shop, they helped me with the development and prototypes, but things got so bad for them, they had to stop development and had to lay me off.
I have since found another vendor and they are in production now, but they too are struggling with resources
I'm telling you this story because I can't be sure when I can get these to market. We are planning 2 to 3 months but the way its gone so far I can't commit to that

My original plan was to develop a lower end and make motor plates to fit any engine (in fact we have a prototype K&B plate.) At one time there were several OEM engine manufactures I could approach, but we know that has all changed.
As the market has changes we decided to focus on a complete FE Outboard, but also still plan on selling the lower by itself

I know this isn't a complete solution for your concerns, but its a solution for a lower end for any motor you find. I've attached a video of one of the prototypes running
Our target price for just the lower is $170 - $180 and the target for the complete Outboard motor as shown is $250 - $260

Any comments would be appreciated
Thanks
Paul Renna
PTI Racing

P-Limited/Full P Complete outboard motor

 

[Greg Rowe]

Carl you a so correct, and if something isn't done now outboard racing will be a conversion of remember when.
So it seems a simple thing to make a rule change to adapt with the times.
3.5 OS / K&B upper lower ( stock)
Mod 3.5 any combo
7.5 stock(K&B stand alone)
7.5 SS any combo with can muffler ( expand what makes a legal can)
7.5 mod any combo to include tune pipe.
Just my opinion.
Thanks Carl for addressing this before outboard tunnels become obsolete.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Carl

I have been concerned about this also, but I've kept quiet because I have struggled getting these produced.
I worked in an Aerospace machine shop, they helped me with the development and prototypes, but things got so bad for them, they had to stop development and had to lay me off.
I have since found another vendor and they are in production now, but they too are struggling with resources
I'm telling you this story because I can't be sure when I can get these to market. We are planning 2 to 3 months but the way its gone so far I can't commit to that

My original plan was to develop a lower end and make motor plates to fit any engine (in fact we have a prototype K&B plate.) At one time there were several OEM engine manufactures I could approach, but we know that has all changed.
As the market has changes we decided to focus on a complete FE Outboard, but also still plan on selling the lower by itself

I know this isn't a complete solution for your concerns, but its a solution for a lower end for any motor you find. I've attached a video of one of the prototypes running
Our target price for just the lower is $170 - $180 and the target for the complete Outboard motor as shown is $250 - $260

Any comments would be appreciated
Thanks
Paul Renna
PTI Racing


View attachment 299440

FE is coming on strong is seems. Providing more choices for FE will be a good thing. I hope your project comes to market soon.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Carl you a so correct, and if something isn't done now outboard racing will be a conversion of remember when.
So it seems a simple thing to make a rule change to adapt with the times.
3.5 OS / K&B upper lower ( stock)
Mod 3.5 any combo
7.5 stock(K&B stand alone)
7.5 SS any combo with can muffler ( expand what makes a legal can)
7.5 mod any combo to include tune pipe.
Just my opinion.
Thanks Carl for addressing this before outboard tunnels become obsolete.

We have to start somewhere. Right now our hands are tied. Our own rules are keeping us from doing anything about it. Manufacturers are not likely to step in with a complete outboard or they would have already done it and with numbers dwindling down its not likely to inspire any manufactures to fork out a huge investment to produce and complete outboard at this point. If we were playing chess we may not be in check mate just yet but we are certainly in check.

To be honest it is not going to be easy to beat a good fine tuned O/S outboard setup. We have all seen what they can do in the right hands. People love the muffled outboard classes and they provide some great side by side racing.

At this point most racers seem to be in favor of making a Super Sport engine legal where any powerhead and lower combination can compete and letting the muffler control the class. How may are in favor of this? Let me know.

 

[jaxracer]

So I think this is a double-edged sword here in the sense that outboards are a limited market and taking away from the behemoth that is OS by adjusting the sport 20 rules to allow additional engine options how will they respond? Will they lower prices in accordance to increase demand, or will they discontinue production altogether, eliminating the only complete outboard available for purchase? Will be interesting to see how they approach this in the long run.

However, we do have to do something to maintain interest in the class, otherwise the dwindling numbers at races and the high price barrier to entry will do its own damage to the long term viability of the class.

Regarding a rule change to keep the class going, I’m in favor of a “Super Sport 21” class enabling ANY combination of .21 engine and lower with exception that they must run a “muffler” or K&B exhaust foot. The K&B can and OS mufflers are grandfathered in as acceptable for use with no modifications allowed to the exhaust outlets (go-no-go gauges can be used here just like is already done for the the sport class). Off brand or custom mufflers are also allowed with restrictions on design (clear rules varying it from a tuned pipe. Example, length, width, stinger outlet, convergence cone limitations).

Engine modifications and mixing of parts from different manufacturers and/or engine series are allowed.

Also carb bore should be restricted here as well. A K&B red carb clocks in at a .340 bore so make that the max carb size. Same go-no-go gauges apply here.

My interpretation of the sport class and its differentiation from the mod class is that it is intentionally limited by design to keep everyone reasonably competitive with one another and (controversial opinion here) more accessible to new boaters just getting into tunnels. Therefore enabling boaters to focus on the fundamentals of outboard setup, prop and driving to get into the winner’s circle at their local race. So how can we maintain this integrity of the class without just making it another modified class? I think the line items I proposed above help to address some of this.

Another topic of discussion is how to boost outboard numbers as a whole, not just the sport class, but that might be better split out in a separate thread.

 

[Grimracer]

What happens to OSs MFG of the engine if we have a 3.5 outlaw class?

Do you think it will breath enough new life into the hobby for OS to lower price or ramp up production.
Or
Do you think it will breath new life into the hobby and most will no longer see the value in an OS engine.. OS responds and discontinues the motor (I think we all know the clock is ticking but do we want to force this?)
Or
Do you think it will in breath new life into (nitro boating).. we are talking Nitro here.. OR.. kill nitro outboards all together?


Do we really want mom and pop shops as our ONLY support to the hobby.. sure they are awesome.. but.. (maybe) as Paul stated he cannot bare the cost of tooling up a new lower. How many more would also be challenged by that now that the OS Lower units are (would be) LONG GONE.

I dont think .. I might be wrong.. ready for EVERYBODY that wants one to have the capability to design one, draw it, and print it in metal.

Lower unit.. muffler..... mount.. what else?

I for one am not apposed to change.. I would however like to just "talk it though" so collectively as a group we live or die with the decision.

Grim

 

[Carl Van Houten]

We are just kicking this around. I am not going to do anything unless I see some interest here.

I am all for what you guys want to do. In manufacturing, competitive products are what keeps prices reasonable. We already have the run away train with the prices O/S is expecting you to pay for their engines and then the built in "Come back to see us" with a nickel sleeve insures that you will be spending a Buck-50 on a new P/S very soon and probably every spring if you run much.

Is O/S going to be gone soon? That's the whole reason for the post. I don't know of anyone who has bought a new O/S in over a year. Maybe there are a few but not many. Enough to keep them in production? I would not think so. So, what we may be in fact doing here is thinking ahead. I don't think that will hurt anything at this point.

There will always be those who will resist change but you have to admit that being one engine away from outboards being completely being gone is where we are and actually have been for some time now.

Talking about what new products can do to the hobby, look how fired up everybody got when Nova Rossi started making their outboard ready powerheads. That excitement went across the board and into all other outboard classes. People were watching some great racing and pulled out engines they had put away for years and was racing them again and also buying 3.5 O/S engines to get in on that fun too.

I don't have a crystal ball but I feel as though people should realize where we are. Will a Super Sport run O/S off or will it give the same effect to outboard racing that the Nova Rossi powerheads did?

 

[Grimracer]

Carl,

Just to qualify.. I myself have never wore out or had to replace a OS Nickacill liner. Maybe it was the fuel? I dont know.. but I find the usability lifespan on them quite incredible.. of course I had a Nova PL last 20 years as well.. (yep.. wore that one out.. LOL) CANNOT complain about any of them..

I have however.. had my OS water cooled motor so long.. it split the case.. LOL.. . so that one got new case..

My reason for the above.. dont allow the Outboard Director to "make the decision" for you regarding the quality perception of the motor.

The cost is a fact.. the reason for the conversation is a fact.. the OBD telling you the motors liner is a .. what was that.. "Come back and see us" part.. I dont know.., not sure how that helps the topic.

Keep the conversation going.......... Party on!

Grim

 

[LawlessMan]

'scuse me for mentioning the obvious, I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers, but alternative outboard drives are what I have been doing since 1995. As FE came into play, I have adapted all 3 of my Lawless drives to accommodate the available motors. Speaking of "Outlaw" drives, that is the name that Rod Geraghty came up with over a year ago, for a drive (and consequently a proposed class )that is adapted to use a car motor. He and I worked to design the adapter and NOBODY took up the challenge to put some boats on the water and see if this would be a way to go. Furthermore, ZIPP designed the "G30" tunnel, based on a Rod Geraghty design, ESPECIALLY for use with a setup like the Outlaw adapter, SPECIFICALLY to allow new boaters to get into the hobby at a reasonable price point, like under $200. The G30 has been co-opted by guys who saw it as a way to go fast on the cheap with. I don;t blame them for wanting to do that, who wouldn't?. But the effect was to make it a lot more difficult to get a kit from ZIpp for the initially stated purpose.
That proposed 7.5 drive looks quite nice, bearing a stronger resemblance to my design thant to K&B's (I'm flattered, thank you). I sincerely hope it gets made and gives boaters another alternative to the "classic" K&B.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Fred,
You have always made great products! If the outboard members want these Super Sport classes it will most likely mean more sales for you down the road. If O/S shuts down their O/B products everybody will be purchasing after market custom made parts. People are going to find a way to race outboards!

 

[LawlessMan]

Carl,
I agree that things have really changed and not always for the better, especially with the loss of several motor manufacturers. Any alternative is better than no alternative. I applaud anyone trying to bring products to market that fill in the voids and gaps. Nobody can say what's going to happen in the future, and i am well aware that I cannot meet a major increase in demand. I'm only one guy, not a shop full of workers. At my age, I'm not planning to be running a CNC until I keel over, so I say, Hooray for alternatives. Lat's keep this really fun hobby going!

 

[Brandon Atwell]

As of now there is
3 .21 engines manufacturers. O.S., OPS (available but where?), and BP (unavailable in the states, unknown and unproven). I believe gabe has some Nova stock left over but that will last only so long.

0 .45 manufacturers, unless you go the route of an Upside down CMB. Special mounts and drastic setup change

0 .67

0 .82

1- 1.00, KB.

Hull Manufacturers
Carl Van Houten- Lynx .21, Taboo .21
Kris Flynn- Dragon .21- .45 (unofficially .67, Shane’s toy)
Gabe Clegg- LeeCraft .45
PTI- honestly unsure of what sizes you produce Paul.
Bill Britton

Lower Ends
OS (.21)
Lawless (.21, 7.5)
PTI (coming soon)
TFL (.21)

For the most part, as Grim alluded to, how do you keep a market viable for growth if you limit a majority of the necessary parts to “mom and pop” shops that can’t adequately meet a growing customer base if that is the end goal? Without engine vendors I think it would be suffice to say we have a larger issue at hand. How do we get new people in without these tools? I do think outlaw classes would help level the playing field and entice current boaters to join, but on the broader spectrum we need more than that.

In the world today, electric is creeping Supreme. With how readily available those power plants, pieces and knowledge is, it may be time we look there. If you want a cheaper, entry level class with a relatively level playing field we as a group should begin to see what we can do there. The engines and ESC’s are universal and far cheaper (for the most part). This coming from a guy who has zero electric tunnels.

 

[RaceMechaniX]

Anyone have a STEP CAD model they are willing to share of a lower unit? I want to model something like Rod's Outlaw adapter but with the engine oriented like a classic OB instead. Send me a PM if you are willing to share.