To all IMPBA Outboard Racers.

[Carl Van Houten]

For the most part, as Grim alluded to, how do you keep a market viable for growth if you limit a majority of the necessary parts to “mom and pop” shops that can’t adequately meet a growing customer base if that is the end goal? Without engine vendors I think it would be suffice to say we have a larger issue at hand. How do we get new people in without these tools? I do think outlaw classes would help level the playing field and entice current boaters to join, but on the broader spectrum we need more than that.

In the world today, electric is creeping Supreme. With how readily available those power plants, pieces and knowledge is, it may be time we look there. If you want a cheaper, entry level class with a relatively level playing field we as a group should begin to see what we can do there. The engines and ESC’s are universal and far cheaper (for the most part). This coming from a guy who has zero electric tunnels.

O/S has practically no sales growth now. That's my point. With no engine sales what will happen? I don't have a crystal ball but I can assure you that no sales will eventually mean no product. That I am sure of. O/S could have built their last engine a year ago and nobody over here would even know with their in- house inventory at a virtual stand still.

Anything that is put into the class as an option such as SS or FE, will have the same effect on the sales of O/S. We have known all along that once they became the only game in town what was going to happen to your cost to buy one. The only thing that was keeping them in check was "other options". Now that that is off the table there is nothing stopping the price from being $800.00 next year. I have beaten this subject to death. Write us, call us, type your ideas here but give us some ideas other than letting it just run into the ground. That is not an option in my book.

Are you saying that your fix for this is more FE?

 

[Jeremyhines]

I don't really like this comment...we are not going to just "axe it". There are a lot of outboard guys who race nothing but outboards. I am one of those people.

I too am in the same boat.

 

[Wasted wages]

Here's a point to think about... If someone builds a small run of X number of his own design outboards using an available car or inboard power head, an adapter, a tube type lower and skeg, propshaft etc.

Builds the motors with whatever port timing he wants to, and calls it XYZ motors, and says it's stock, who sets that criteria ?

 

[Jeremyhines]

I run k&b outboards and there is still a lot of parts out there and motors . eBay has plenty every week. There just old technology. They come alive with a tuned piped.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Wasted Wages,
As the current IMPBA rules are written, anybody who has the money and machining capability can build an engine and call it stock BUT, in order to have it qualify for the Sport Outboard Tunnel Class they must be standard factory production with a minimum of 100 units available for sale to the general public.

 

[Grimracer]

I have to wonder. How many OS outboards were made... in 25ish years it should be quite a bunch!
Same question for the K+B line of 3.5s.. I wonder just how many SX motors were made?

Anybody have the numbers?

Grim

 

[Carl Van Houten]

I have to wonder. How many OS outboards were made... in 25ish years it should be quite a bunch!
Same question for the K+B line of 3.5s.. I wonder just how many SX motors were made?

Anybody have the numbers?

Grim

That information is probably not going to be easy to find. If you had these numbers what would it tell you?

 

[Joey Jones]

I think Grim has a point; There are boatloads of K&B and O.S. outboards in the wild. One question is, why aren't they showing up to race them? I'm guilty, of course, but it's a valid question.

Regarding the overall questions proposed by this thread, I don't know. I haven't really been around or raced enough to have much of a respected opinion. I will say that the initial proposed "outlaw" car-engine mod had me insanely excited. It is too bad that you can't add-to-cart. I'd have 2 running around here, probably daily. It's a great idea, in my opinion, but much testing needs to be done (how do they stack up with B Sport...B Tunnel?). What if they're close? I've seen B Sport entries do OK in the B Tunnel races. Again, not enough data to start talking rules until that data has been reviewed.

Thanks for what you're doing, Carl. The writing is on the wall for Glow fuel, engines, plugs, and class designations. It's not gonna be easy. I also think that Brandon has good forethought about the FE influx. Perhaps that is an area where larger growth could be expected. It's happened (massive growth, that is) in every other aspect of RC hobbies. I don't think we're much different.

-Joey

 

[Geraghty]

I think Grim has a point; There are boatloads of K&B and O.S. outboards in the wild. One question is, why aren't they showing up to race them? I'm guilty, of course, but it's a valid question.

Regarding the overall questions proposed by this thread, I don't know. I haven't really been around or raced enough to have much of a respected opinion. I will say that the initial proposed "outlaw" car-engine mod had me insanely excited. It is too bad that you can't add-to-cart. I'd have 2 running around here, probably daily. It's a great idea, in my opinion, but much testing needs to be done (how do they stack up with B Sport...B Tunnel?). What if they're close? I've seen B Sport entries do OK in the B Tunnel races. Again, not enough data to start talking rules until that data has been reviewed.

Thanks for what you're doing, Carl. The writing is on the wall for Glow fuel, engines, plugs, and class designations. It's not gonna be easy. I also think that Brandon has good forethought about the FE influx. Perhaps that is an area where larger growth could be expected. It's happened (massive growth, that is) in every other aspect of RC hobbies. I don't think we're much different.

-Joey

This is how a $70.00 car engine stacks up against a 3.5 K&B or O.S. outboard.......
This was the first and only time in the water with absolutely no testing with props or set-up ....... this was on a Lynx...
I even made a throttle linkage adapter so the car slide carb can be used....

first run
X437/3 and a car pipe

second run
1515 ABC and the boat wasn't happy with the set-up ....50mph is easily attainable

thats all folks...I meet so much resisitance that it went back on the shelf.....

 

[Joey Jones]

thats all folks...I meet so much resisitance that it went back on the shelf.....

Dang. Well, if you want to get rid of it, let me know.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Thanks for sharing that Rod. As that engine proves there are alternative outboard configuration options out there other than a complete out of the box RTR outboard. Other than the car pipe on that engine, it would qualify for a Super Sport Outboard if it is a 3.5cc engine.

Take the 7.5cc class for instance, You could take that old 7.5cc K&B that you have been saving for years out. You know the one, that engine you have wrapped up in a rag and sitting in your shop (the original one with the cast-in muffler and four exhaust holes) and as long as you haven't drilled the exhaust outlet holes larger than the limits specified for that lower unit, you can throw it right in and start racing it in the Super Sport Class because it has a legal muffler on it OR if you may have a 7.5cc Nova Rossi that you want to use. You could put a S.S. legal 7.5cc size canister type muffler on it and you are good to go race.

Now you may say the Nova Rossi will outrun the K&B but not so. You will be surprised how evenly matched they will be with both engines having to conform to the specs of the muffler. The quality and price of the Nova Rossi is much higher and some with deep pockets will prefer that engine but others will prefer the K&B or any other brand 7.5cc engine they may have laying around. You put that canister muffler on a 7.5 and you will have to work on your prop and setup to find additional performance and drive as good as you possibly can just as the sport class has always made you do and this is the fun that the class has always provided. A Super Sport Outboard will blend right in with the current sport class.

Now, how many picked up on what I just wrote? I was talking about the 7.5cc engine not the 3.5cc. We want to include 3.5cc, 7.5cc and 11cc engines in this proposal. Why just have rules for the 3.5cc engine? You don't know how many times I have been talking to people at races and they bring up the fact that only having rules for one class of sport engine never made sense to them. It is WAY PAST TIME to include these other two engines. Go look at other classes in the rule book and see how many dormant engine classes there are in there. I'll wait...

Let's get off of rules and specifications and talk about promoting outboards: We should have done this way before now. We have been limping along trying to Promote one Sport Outboard Class for all these years wondering why there is not any more interest in the sport classes. But there has been a reason for this, it's hard to convince the board to add additional sport rules when there are no RTR outboards available to support it and without the engine/rules/classes it's hard to convince a club to offer sport classes that there are no rules for. The last thing a CD wants to to be faced with is a conflict with nothing in the rule book for him to solve a dispute. Has the light come on yet? This is the only way to do this! I want people to start speaking up about this. You are coming to IW and clicking on the Outboard Forum so you must like Outboards? This proposal is the only way I know of to move the Sport Nitro Classes forward.

You all remember when the Sport 3.5cc class was the largest classes at the race? It can be that way again with all three classes.

- Carl

 

[Alan Elzer]

I agree Carl let's change the rules for these classes. So I guess you need a proposal submitted? So who does it go to and in what detail? Sorry I'm not much for writing a new proposal...

 

[Carl Van Houten]

I agree Carl let's change the rules for these classes. So I guess you need a proposal submitted? So who does it go to and in what detail? Sorry I'm not much for writing a new proposal...

It has already been written. There are only a couple of details left. I expect it to be complete by the end of the week. I just want yall to have time to think about it and discuss it among yourselves so that when it does come up for a vote you will understand what it is all about. It has to be sent thought the correct channels before it is voted on but everybody needs to make sure to vote. All I did was write the first draft and there are quite a few others that are involved that are very experienced with outboards and all of us are on the same page with this.

 

[Alan Elzer]

It has already been written. There are only a couple of details left. I expect it to be complete by the end of the week. I just want yall to have time to think about it and discuss it among yourselves so that when it does come up for a vote you will understand what it is all about. It has to be sent thought the correct channels before it is voted on but everybody needs to make sure to vote. All I did was write the first draft and there are quite a few others that are involved that are very experienced with outboards and all of us are on the same page with this.

Carl thanks for all your help with all you do, very glad to have you as outboard director

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Carl thanks for all your help with all you do, very glad to have you as outboard director

Thanks Alan, We will have a little time before this comes out for a vote (hopefully it makes it through) so be talking to all your IMPBA outboard friends about this and explain it to them and tell them to contact their friends because not everybody gets on IW. When it comes time to vote make sure you remind them to voice their opinion on this. It is going to be up to the IMPBA members to make this happen.

-Carl

 

[jaxracer]

I definitely agree here with the "Super Sport" class rules that are proposed. It will not inhibit existing sport 20 outboards from racing in the class, all it will do is open the door for more outboards to enter the class, therefore raising entry numbers and making competition more fun. It's fair to say, it sucks if you go to a race and there are only 2 entries in your class. Being able to accept more entries is exciting news.

In regards to promoting outboards as a whole, this is a little bit of a different topic and challenge at hand. Price here is mentioned multiple times by everyone as a barrier to entry, but I'm not so sure that is the real issue as to why there are not more outboards entered in local races. Look at Andy Brown's Eagles or Team Crapshooter boats or various other builders. Some of those guys are selling JUST the boats for $800-$1,000 or more and they're still selling and showing up at races. In perspective, a $600 OS isn't bad.

I think the real challenge here is that it's not EASY to build an outboard. Take a look around, how many new outboard racers are showing up? Even at national races, a lot of times it's the same tunnel heads who have been racing against each other for years or in many cases decades at this point. Why? If you aren't already in the tunnel scene, a new person has no idea what they're doing or where to go to get each individual part and piece to build a tunnel.

Highlighting ZippKits here, they have done a FANTASTIC job revitalizing the hydro classes. There's a reason why you see 10-20 hydros entered at any given race, new and old faces included. It is now EASY to build a hydro. On ZippKits website you can go on there, order a JAE kit(before the plywood shortage), order the ENTIRE hardware kit as one package (even including pre-bent throttle and steering rods and the prop to go on it), add an engine or electric powerplant and you're ready to get in the water and go racing.

With a tunnel, it's tough as a new boater. Painting the scenario, if I'm a new boater, I have to track down Carl or Kris's number through the ether to ask them to build me a new boat. Then I have to try and find an engine from somewhere. Track down a lower unit from somewhere else. Find a tuned pipe from yet another guy. Now I have all these pieces, oh crap I don't know what screws to use or what rubber boots are needed to seal the radio box. Where the heck do I get an on/off switch? Can I use fishing line to make this thing steer? Man, how the heck am I supposed to hold this cowling on? Do I even need this cowling?

Like you guys get the picture here. It doesn't matter if engines are readily available or not, a new boater still will have to go through all of the above challenges or maybe reach a frustration point that they don't know how to build the thing and give up altogether. If we really want to help grow the tunnel classes, I'm calling on our hobby shops and boat builders here to help the new guys get going. Again ZippKits is a great example for the work they did making the JAE EASY and the class numbers show. Let's put our heads together here and whether it's ZippKits or someone else, let's figure out how to put together a COMPLETE outboard package (nitro or electric) and a one stop shop to buy all of your outboard necessities (boat, engine, pipe, prop, hardware and odds and ends) to help get some new guys in a boat.

 

[Zach Davis]

I definitely agree here with the "Super Sport" class rules that are proposed. It will not inhibit existing sport 20 outboards from racing in the class, all it will do is open the door for more outboards to enter the class, therefore raising entry numbers and making competition more fun. It's fair to say, it sucks if you go to a race and there are only 2 entries in your class. Being able to accept more entries is exciting news.

In regards to promoting outboards as a whole, this is a little bit of a different topic and challenge at hand. Price here is mentioned multiple times by everyone as a barrier to entry, but I'm not so sure that is the real issue as to why there are not more outboards entered in local races. Look at Andy Brown's Eagles or Team Crapshooter boats or various other builders. Some of those guys are selling JUST the boats for $800-$1,000 or more and they're still selling and showing up at races. In perspective, a $600 OS isn't bad.

I think the real challenge here is that it's not EASY to build an outboard. Take a look around, how many new outboard racers are showing up? Even at national races, a lot of times it's the same tunnel heads who have been racing against each other for years or in many cases decades at this point. Why? If you aren't already in the tunnel scene, a new person has no idea what they're doing or where to go to get each individual part and piece to build a tunnel.

Highlighting ZippKits here, they have done a FANTASTIC job revitalizing the hydro classes. There's a reason why you see 10-20 hydros entered at any given race, new and old faces included. It is now EASY to build a hydro. On ZippKits website you can go on there, order a JAE kit(before the plywood shortage), order the ENTIRE hardware kit as one package (even including pre-bent throttle and steering rods and the prop to go on it), add an engine or electric powerplant and you're ready to get in the water and go racing.

With a tunnel, it's tough as a new boater. Painting the scenario, if I'm a new boater, I have to track down Carl or Kris's number through the ether to ask them to build me a new boat. Then I have to try and find an engine from somewhere. Track down a lower unit from somewhere else. Find a tuned pipe from yet another guy. Now I have all these pieces, oh crap I don't know what screws to use or what rubber boots are needed to seal the radio box. Where the heck do I get an on/off switch? Can I use fishing line to make this thing steer? Man, how the heck am I supposed to hold this cowling on? Do I even need this cowling?

Like you guys get the picture here. It doesn't matter if engines are readily available or not, a new boater still will have to go through all of the above challenges or maybe reach a frustration point that they don't know how to build the thing and give up altogether. If we really want to help grow the tunnel classes, I'm calling on our hobby shops and boat builders here to help the new guys get going. Again ZippKits is a great example for the work they did making the JAE EASY and the class numbers show. Let's put our heads together here and whether it's ZippKits or someone else, let's figure out how to put together a COMPLETE outboard package (nitro or electric) and a one stop shop to buy all of your outboard necessities (boat, engine, pipe, prop, hardware and odds and ends) to help get some new guys in a boat.

I believe Joe at Zippkits is trying to do this now.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Providing as many options as possible will always help the classes be it engines, boats radios etc. Everybody is not happy with the cheapest thing you can find while others want that over anything. I had a guy pull up in his $70,000.00 bass boat once while I was testing a boat on the river and he said "Boy you sure do have an expensive hobby" ??? You know if you have your heart into something and you are serious about it those people typically spend big bucks to do what they enjoy. Kids...well I say kids I know some 50 year old guys who still play video games and spend big bucks doing it too. When people come to the pond to watch go over there and ask them to come look at your stuff and talk to them. He is probably interested or he/she wouldn't be there. Another thing we all need to be aware of is how we talk. If a dad brings his family out so watch us race and all they hear is a bunch of old guys cursing and swearing they could very well leave and not come back. I have to watch my mouth sometimes when those nasty little gremlin's start driving my boat! LOL

 

[Julio Almazan]

Hi:

This is how a $70.00 car engine stacks up against a 3.5 K&B or O.S. outboard.......
This was the first and only time in the water with absolutely no testing with props or set-up ....... this was on a Lynx...
I even made a throttle linkage adapter so the car slide carb can be used....

Could you tell me which 3.5cc car engine you have used for these tests?
Have you ever used an O.S. or a K&B lower unit?

 

[Geraghty]

It was a motor off of wish.....I will look close and see if there is name on it.....The inside is beautiful...