- Joined
- Dec 25, 2004
- Messages
- 2,866
Very well presented and your analysis is very logical and spot on.
Thoughts on the Stock Class rules
- Thread starter ChrisHerzog
- Start date
Help Support Intlwaters:
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2007
- Messages
- 3,507
I'd say that's a pretty good start. I would add a go/no-go gauge for the carb bore and specify a specific carb. Call out the major items that are easy to see and tech like bat-wing carb shafts, altered ignition systems and mismatched parts. Ignore the small bits like springs on the seals, seal thickness, spark plug washer thickness, etc. Sure those small things add up but it triples the time to inspect a motor.
Lastly add a higher than $200 claiming rule, perhaps $300. Or add an equivalent stock motor + $100 cash. This dissuades excessive claims.
Is there a smaller Walboro carb with a 1/4" inlet that could be substituted? A stamped steel restrictor plate mounted on the inlet of the carb is cheap and could be checked in 10 seconds and checked randomly in the pits or after a race. If there is a dispute, swap restrictor plates.
I like the idea of canister muffler's, but that kills Thunderboats. Pills on the exhaust system will lead to intentional leaking to gain more power so a restrictor needs to be on the inlet side of the engine.
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2002
- Messages
- 1,022
And if you limit them further guess what. The fast guys are still the fast guys. But I don't think thats really the question. Are tear downs being done at District races? They are only required for the NATS and records. Both of those have time set aside for the tear down. To limit the time comitment by race officials. Make the driver tear it down. Use an inspection guide. Then the inspector just has to look it over and hand the owner a baggy to put his motor in. If all of this cheating is going on, how many protests were filed last year?
This thread is all over the place. The stock gas classes are not broken. Just needs a couple small tweeks, not an overhaul.
First time I heard that these stock classes were for beginners. Thought it was a "motor parity" class. P-limited was never a beginner class. I know as I ran electric for about 15 years. The classes started out as Limited Spec Hydro, Limited Spec Mono, etc. 700 size brushed motor. Everybody raced them. Then brushless came along and a couple clubs decided to spec a rtr available brushless motor. Those that ran the 700 brushed motor switched over to the AQ 3030. Had nothing to do with beginners. It was a "motor parity" class.
The rules are in the book. Card Carrying Members, Sanctioned Clubs and Sanctioned Races should be following the rules. I would think the insurance carrier would specify so.
The protest procedure is in the book. I would add that there should be a minimum of 3 racers it should take to initiate a protest. Racers with knowledge can tell when a stock boat is drastically out-performing the others. Other than that special dialed in boat that comes around once and awhile. 3 or more racers needed to initiate a protest would buffer the 1 racer's emotion that got out-driven and got his butt handed to him. I was on the receiving end of one of these protests, and thoroughly enjoyed it.
There needs to be consistent deterrent/penalty consequences for DQ's from a protest as well as a DQ from a race venue. Makes no sense at all that this does not exist.
The OP was looking for some simple tech procedures. I don't know much about the motors but I agree that there could be some simple tech procedures for protests and smaller race venues, but then I think there should be the total teardown for the Nationals and record runs, etc.
Race on fellas. Doug
First time I heard that these stock classes were for beginners. Thought it was a "motor parity" class. P-limited was never a beginner class. I know as I ran electric for about 15 years. The classes started out as Limited Spec Hydro, Limited Spec Mono, etc. 700 size brushed motor. Everybody raced them. Then brushless came along and a couple clubs decided to spec a rtr available brushless motor. Those that ran the 700 brushed motor switched over to the AQ 3030. Had nothing to do with beginners. It was a "motor parity" class.
The rules are in the book. Card Carrying Members, Sanctioned Clubs and Sanctioned Races should be following the rules. I would think the insurance carrier would specify so.
The protest procedure is in the book. I would add that there should be a minimum of 3 racers it should take to initiate a protest. Racers with knowledge can tell when a stock boat is drastically out-performing the others. Other than that special dialed in boat that comes around once and awhile. 3 or more racers needed to initiate a protest would buffer the 1 racer's emotion that got out-driven and got his butt handed to him. I was on the receiving end of one of these protests, and thoroughly enjoyed it.
There needs to be consistent deterrent/penalty consequences for DQ's from a protest as well as a DQ from a race venue. Makes no sense at all that this does not exist.
The OP was looking for some simple tech procedures. I don't know much about the motors but I agree that there could be some simple tech procedures for protests and smaller race venues, but then I think there should be the total teardown for the Nationals and record runs, etc.
Race on fellas. Doug
I have believed for some time that the stock motors need an inspection checklist for big events. So, I guess I’m on board with the “spec motor” idea from Chris. At the nats this past year I saw the inspector on the phone trying desperately to get a spec on stock flywheel diameter. That took quite awhile, and yet, I didn’t see any effort to check stroke or seal springs. Maybe that happened, so if it did, and I missed it, please ignore what I just said. That said, I left the race thinking, “we need 6-12 specs printed in the rule book, and a guarantee from the club running the nats that those specific items will be looked at and measured.” So, I think I’m coming down in favor of a list of common sense specs that can be measured - ideally quickly and easily. I would also recommend that the specs be tight (I.e., no +/- .030, but +/- .003).
At this years nats, they already did what was suggested in some of the above posts, I.e., inspect the first place boat, and if it passes, inspection is done. That seemed pretty streamlined to me.
I also saw way too many people in inspection, including people picking up parts off the table, and looking them over. It made me uncomfortable seeing someone holding a motor part that wasn’t theirs. My personal opinion is that in inspection it should be the driver, his/her pitman, the inspectors, and that’s it.
Not to open a new can of worms, but given the passion around this discussion, I’m surprised no one has brought up fuel. We are drilling deeply into honing a cylinder (no pun intended), and yet there is absolutely no effort or means to inspect fuel - this is true for both stock and mod classes. Plenty of race associations know what fuel can do for performance, and yet, we worry about whether a water fitting has been drilled. There’s no easy way to inspect fuel. That’s why it will likely never happen. So, why not just change the rule to open fuel - both stock and mod. If there’s an issue with cheating on fuel, it is now fixed.
I have no doubt ”cheating” happens from time to time. That said, it’s my opinion that the guys who run out front, tend to spend the most time at the pond, and in their basement. I don’t think the national champion’s motor should be able to be bought out from under him for $200. We have no idea how many motors that guy has gone through or the number of break-in sessions or the handpicked stock parts he may have gone through. That’s a potential cost that’s worth more than $200. And what if 3 guys want to buy the new national champions motor? Are we going to encourage an auction? And if we do a good job of inspecting, and the new national champ passes inspection, why would we let someone buy the motor for $200, when it was just passed through inspection as legal? So, why don’t we decide what we want to inspect, make it as simple as we can, and then inspect it.
Lastly, I race stock classes and promote them in District 1, because I believe they are less complicated, and less expensive. Mod classes take a lot of experimenting with port timing, carb Venturi, and more. A builder has likely done a lot of dyno work and testing, and if someone does that for you, it costs $600+ per new motor. I think having access to a $200 new motor is a good thing for a hobby that’s hanging on, and likely will be under more pressure if the economy keeps trending the way it is. I agree stock classes are not really cut out for newbies. They run closer together. I’ve seen some brutally competitive races in stock mono. If we want a home for new drivers, then local clubs might want to consider local solutions for novices. And, maybe we need a national level newbie class if we think it’s an issue/opportunity. Thanks.
At this years nats, they already did what was suggested in some of the above posts, I.e., inspect the first place boat, and if it passes, inspection is done. That seemed pretty streamlined to me.
I also saw way too many people in inspection, including people picking up parts off the table, and looking them over. It made me uncomfortable seeing someone holding a motor part that wasn’t theirs. My personal opinion is that in inspection it should be the driver, his/her pitman, the inspectors, and that’s it.
Not to open a new can of worms, but given the passion around this discussion, I’m surprised no one has brought up fuel. We are drilling deeply into honing a cylinder (no pun intended), and yet there is absolutely no effort or means to inspect fuel - this is true for both stock and mod classes. Plenty of race associations know what fuel can do for performance, and yet, we worry about whether a water fitting has been drilled. There’s no easy way to inspect fuel. That’s why it will likely never happen. So, why not just change the rule to open fuel - both stock and mod. If there’s an issue with cheating on fuel, it is now fixed.
I have no doubt ”cheating” happens from time to time. That said, it’s my opinion that the guys who run out front, tend to spend the most time at the pond, and in their basement. I don’t think the national champion’s motor should be able to be bought out from under him for $200. We have no idea how many motors that guy has gone through or the number of break-in sessions or the handpicked stock parts he may have gone through. That’s a potential cost that’s worth more than $200. And what if 3 guys want to buy the new national champions motor? Are we going to encourage an auction? And if we do a good job of inspecting, and the new national champ passes inspection, why would we let someone buy the motor for $200, when it was just passed through inspection as legal? So, why don’t we decide what we want to inspect, make it as simple as we can, and then inspect it.
Lastly, I race stock classes and promote them in District 1, because I believe they are less complicated, and less expensive. Mod classes take a lot of experimenting with port timing, carb Venturi, and more. A builder has likely done a lot of dyno work and testing, and if someone does that for you, it costs $600+ per new motor. I think having access to a $200 new motor is a good thing for a hobby that’s hanging on, and likely will be under more pressure if the economy keeps trending the way it is. I agree stock classes are not really cut out for newbies. They run closer together. I’ve seen some brutally competitive races in stock mono. If we want a home for new drivers, then local clubs might want to consider local solutions for novices. And, maybe we need a national level newbie class if we think it’s an issue/opportunity. Thanks.
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2004
- Messages
- 1,782
I have to agree with Fred on this one. My opinion is that there isn't anything wrong with the Stock engine rules as listed in either of the IMPBA/NAMBA Rule books. However, if you want to make your point about what to do with the people that feel like they have to cheat to win, here is what I would do. 1 ) Those that get caught cheating at local club races get parked for one year from the time of when they were caught. 2 ) Those that get caught at any other race larger than a club race ( District , Nationals or Record Trials ) will get parked for the remainder of the year that they were caught AND for the entire year following the infraction. Might give them some time to think about what they did. When my 3 year old grandson does what he's not supposed to do my daughter puts him in "Time Out". Yea, put the cheaters in "Time Out". Word gets around quickly when this happens and who these people are. It certainly doesn't help one's reputation in the hobby. Just an old guys opinion.......
Bradley Maglinger
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2012
- Messages
- 1,854
And here we go....
1. Hand out motors, that takes a team to manage, heck we have a hard enough time with getting clubs to put on a national events year after year, so I say we fix that before trying to add more work to the club at a national event.
2. One strike and your out, well at the end of the day we want to Get Boats on the water. If that rule was in place at the National Event my club put on in 2021, you would see at least one person that had NO idea that the carb he got from Gizmo didn't meet the requirements and it deemed him illegal. So this individual that I would bet most of my marbles on has some of the highest Integrity from anyone I know. If that was the rule, I would of quit that day. So I would stick with the 3 strike rule and make sure we follow through as the rules state. Again follow through as the rules state.
4. Beginner class...lets be real here, the Intent of stock classes are not there anymore, especially P limited. I say stop saying beginner class because when I started in 1990 with a Stock 7.5 tunnel (beginner class as I was told) , that class never took off like how it was envisioned it would and that was back in the hay day. Dont get me wrong there were boats in that class, but soon and I mean very soon everyone jumped up to the modified class and I was 1 of 3 people racing. Lets move the focus of beginner class to adding to the membership a different way. I would really sit back and ask yourself, did I really take the time to try and build the organization body by calling someone I personally know and ask them to come to the pond and check it out? Did I really take the time to sit with an individual at a race when they were asking how much and how fast and then make sure they pulled their phone out and gave them your number, or did you brush them off? We need to first capture the new members especially at the age range of 26-55 because if we get them in, we will get the whole family. Then we can take the time to show them different classes and the multiple and I mean multiple used boats or even new boats that are affordable. Why do I believe in this, because we added a complete family to D14 because I made a phone call to a 39 year old father and thought he might like it. I will admit, I made that same call three other times to three other people and striked out but 1 out of 4, Ill take it.
5. Protest, its there for a reason, I have been district director for two years and not once has anyone bellied up the $5 to protest. Now I will tell you that they like to come up and complain to me and say you need to check that boat or motor blah blah blah. Soon as I say get your five dollars and go see the cd they all say I don't want to be the bad guy. So if we don't exercise the rules in place how do we know that it doesn't work?
6. Claiming a motor, yeah life is busy enough as it is especially working 2 jobs, and attending 14 IMPBA events in 2021 for me to have to give up a motor only to try and go buy another and it be out of stock(knowing my luck) or find the time to break that motor in. I understand the concept but I think that would open more cans of worms when you have those tire kickers that don't belly up the money.
7. Tear down, especially at a national event, go to the IMPBA website, print off the spec sheet that is provided I-9 , and go through the motor to the best of your ability. I would even let the owner of the motor tear it down for me if they feel more comfortable that way. I feel like this is probably the biggest opportunity we have here because each club needs to put a person in charge and have the program in place. So honestly, ask yourself, is my club prepared to do this? I would say only 10 percent of the clubs are ready.
8. Tools, I do think that we need to get the IMPBA to provide 3 Tool boxes of tools to measure and tear down motors that can be used for Time Trial and National Events. Consistency is key.
All in all we are having discussions which means the hobby is healthy and alive. We all care, we all have opinions, but remember rules are currently in place, so we need to exercise them to the fullest and then when we find the opportunities we can make changes then.
1. Hand out motors, that takes a team to manage, heck we have a hard enough time with getting clubs to put on a national events year after year, so I say we fix that before trying to add more work to the club at a national event.
2. One strike and your out, well at the end of the day we want to Get Boats on the water. If that rule was in place at the National Event my club put on in 2021, you would see at least one person that had NO idea that the carb he got from Gizmo didn't meet the requirements and it deemed him illegal. So this individual that I would bet most of my marbles on has some of the highest Integrity from anyone I know. If that was the rule, I would of quit that day. So I would stick with the 3 strike rule and make sure we follow through as the rules state. Again follow through as the rules state.
4. Beginner class...lets be real here, the Intent of stock classes are not there anymore, especially P limited. I say stop saying beginner class because when I started in 1990 with a Stock 7.5 tunnel (beginner class as I was told) , that class never took off like how it was envisioned it would and that was back in the hay day. Dont get me wrong there were boats in that class, but soon and I mean very soon everyone jumped up to the modified class and I was 1 of 3 people racing. Lets move the focus of beginner class to adding to the membership a different way. I would really sit back and ask yourself, did I really take the time to try and build the organization body by calling someone I personally know and ask them to come to the pond and check it out? Did I really take the time to sit with an individual at a race when they were asking how much and how fast and then make sure they pulled their phone out and gave them your number, or did you brush them off? We need to first capture the new members especially at the age range of 26-55 because if we get them in, we will get the whole family. Then we can take the time to show them different classes and the multiple and I mean multiple used boats or even new boats that are affordable. Why do I believe in this, because we added a complete family to D14 because I made a phone call to a 39 year old father and thought he might like it. I will admit, I made that same call three other times to three other people and striked out but 1 out of 4, Ill take it.
5. Protest, its there for a reason, I have been district director for two years and not once has anyone bellied up the $5 to protest. Now I will tell you that they like to come up and complain to me and say you need to check that boat or motor blah blah blah. Soon as I say get your five dollars and go see the cd they all say I don't want to be the bad guy. So if we don't exercise the rules in place how do we know that it doesn't work?
6. Claiming a motor, yeah life is busy enough as it is especially working 2 jobs, and attending 14 IMPBA events in 2021 for me to have to give up a motor only to try and go buy another and it be out of stock(knowing my luck) or find the time to break that motor in. I understand the concept but I think that would open more cans of worms when you have those tire kickers that don't belly up the money.
7. Tear down, especially at a national event, go to the IMPBA website, print off the spec sheet that is provided I-9 , and go through the motor to the best of your ability. I would even let the owner of the motor tear it down for me if they feel more comfortable that way. I feel like this is probably the biggest opportunity we have here because each club needs to put a person in charge and have the program in place. So honestly, ask yourself, is my club prepared to do this? I would say only 10 percent of the clubs are ready.
8. Tools, I do think that we need to get the IMPBA to provide 3 Tool boxes of tools to measure and tear down motors that can be used for Time Trial and National Events. Consistency is key.
All in all we are having discussions which means the hobby is healthy and alive. We all care, we all have opinions, but remember rules are currently in place, so we need to exercise them to the fullest and then when we find the opportunities we can make changes then.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2019
- Messages
- 1,341
It's just my opinion but if drivers would work on driving skills and clock management that would be way more valuable then modifying stock motors there been many times I've had the fastest boat but not the driving skills to go along with it if you miss the start or don't finish the race that is way more important then having the fastest boat main reason for me to race boats is to meet people that have the same interest as me the guys in our club are willing to teach you everything they know to go fast and that has helped me immensely way more then a mod motor
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2006
- Messages
- 574
A few years back, we were racing in Celina. A couple of racers came up to me and asked me to listen to a particular Thunderboat run. I was obvious that it was turning higher rpms than the rest of the boats in that heat. I told these guys the protest procedure, and the $5 and a note to check that boat was presented to the CD of the race. The CD and the engine tech went over to the racer and said his motor was being protested. He said he didn't want to tear it down and put it away for the weekend. The CD took the refusal as an admission of guilt, and was disqualified.
Soon afterwards at the next race, my buddy Teddy decided he would protest my motor, and then Vince decided to protest Teddy's motor. Now, everyone see's all these motors be teched. They now know that it does happen, and they better be legal or get caught.
My point is that the motor protest rule that is in place does work. We just have to use it. Are there people that skirt the rules? I'm sure there are a few. But most people would like to feel good that they won within the rules.
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2019
- Messages
- 1,208
Guys, don’t get lost with if we should have a protest rule or not, or if it should be used or not. Or, even if it is used already. The point of my post was to come up with something SIMPLE and FAST as well as CONSISTENT from one race to another no matter who the person is that is checking the engines. So basically if I were to get protested or if I were to win a race say at Indy and get checked (in 10 minutes or less) and pass tech, that if the same engine gets protested and check in New Orleans I feel confident that it will then passes tech in New Orleans because it already did at Indy.
I’m not saying that I’m trying to get away with anything, so let’s get that straight right out of the gate. However, when you have guys pulling your eng apart and walking all over the pond showing other people and asking others for their opinion on your motor, then you have random people just walking up to the tech table and taking it on their own discretion to pick up the parts (of your motor) sitting on the table and then offering their two cents about it, that’s another thing that I have an issue with. When your tech guy has to make phone calls to people not at the race to get certain specs on a motor or when he/she is going to sit there for an hour and measure every single part of a motor including the stuff that makes absolutely no difference at all, I have an issue with that as well.
My personal stuff is fast and if it’s not fast today it will be tomorrow. I know how to dial in a boat. I know how to work the clock and I know how to drive an RC boat in a race. I don’t ever cheat (nor do I like that word) and I don’t give a hoot about getting anymore trophies. I race because I enjoy the rush of the moment. I race because I enjoy the people that I have met and look forward to the people that I have yet to meet. That is NOT what this post is about.
let’s stay focused here!
My goals again with this post was to get teching stock motors to a point of CONSISTENCY from race to race and keep interpretation of the rules to a minimum. To also make it LESS WORK on the host club and to whom ever is doing the tech inspections, not more work. To make it as FAST and as SIMPLE as possible so that anyone can do it. Again, I thought that if we could all decide on a handful of things to check, like 5 to maybe 8 individual items, that we all could agree are the most important items to tech to us all, then we could maybe also all agree to ignore and or frown on the rest of the motor. Over time things could be added to the list and maybe even taken off of the list, that’s an easy fixed. We just have to pick a place to start, come up with some procedures, ie step one, step two and go from there.
Stock mono was started as a beginner or budget class many years ago. It no longer is. However, the same motor rules for Stock Mono are used in two other classes that were never a beginner class, that’s the thing to focus on. Let’s get past the beginner thing for now, no one cares if it was or is or should be a beginner class. Thats not what this thread was ever about.
A few people suggested getting rid of the Stock mono class, one of the largest classes that we run. First, and I don’t care who you are, that’s the stupidest idea that I have heard. You want to kill one of the biggest classes that run at just about any sanctioned race including the Gas Nats, yea ok. Second this thread is not about Stock Mono, it’s about the rules and what makes a motor a stock motor, the way that we tech these motors and what we can do to make it easier and faster and still be fair across the board. If you want to talk about killing a class go start your own thread about that and I’ll be sure to communicate my feelings about that idea on your thread.
Someone mentioned that no one has yet to send in any amendments. I’m waiting on some information to come to me in the mail and I was also looking for some good ideas to come from this thread. Rest assured that I plan on putting something together on all this once I have all the info that I’m waiting on in front of me and after I have some time to bounce my ideas off a few different people throughout the IMPBA.
I’m not saying that I’m trying to get away with anything, so let’s get that straight right out of the gate. However, when you have guys pulling your eng apart and walking all over the pond showing other people and asking others for their opinion on your motor, then you have random people just walking up to the tech table and taking it on their own discretion to pick up the parts (of your motor) sitting on the table and then offering their two cents about it, that’s another thing that I have an issue with. When your tech guy has to make phone calls to people not at the race to get certain specs on a motor or when he/she is going to sit there for an hour and measure every single part of a motor including the stuff that makes absolutely no difference at all, I have an issue with that as well.
My personal stuff is fast and if it’s not fast today it will be tomorrow. I know how to dial in a boat. I know how to work the clock and I know how to drive an RC boat in a race. I don’t ever cheat (nor do I like that word) and I don’t give a hoot about getting anymore trophies. I race because I enjoy the rush of the moment. I race because I enjoy the people that I have met and look forward to the people that I have yet to meet. That is NOT what this post is about.
let’s stay focused here!
My goals again with this post was to get teching stock motors to a point of CONSISTENCY from race to race and keep interpretation of the rules to a minimum. To also make it LESS WORK on the host club and to whom ever is doing the tech inspections, not more work. To make it as FAST and as SIMPLE as possible so that anyone can do it. Again, I thought that if we could all decide on a handful of things to check, like 5 to maybe 8 individual items, that we all could agree are the most important items to tech to us all, then we could maybe also all agree to ignore and or frown on the rest of the motor. Over time things could be added to the list and maybe even taken off of the list, that’s an easy fixed. We just have to pick a place to start, come up with some procedures, ie step one, step two and go from there.
Stock mono was started as a beginner or budget class many years ago. It no longer is. However, the same motor rules for Stock Mono are used in two other classes that were never a beginner class, that’s the thing to focus on. Let’s get past the beginner thing for now, no one cares if it was or is or should be a beginner class. Thats not what this thread was ever about.
A few people suggested getting rid of the Stock mono class, one of the largest classes that we run. First, and I don’t care who you are, that’s the stupidest idea that I have heard. You want to kill one of the biggest classes that run at just about any sanctioned race including the Gas Nats, yea ok. Second this thread is not about Stock Mono, it’s about the rules and what makes a motor a stock motor, the way that we tech these motors and what we can do to make it easier and faster and still be fair across the board. If you want to talk about killing a class go start your own thread about that and I’ll be sure to communicate my feelings about that idea on your thread.
Someone mentioned that no one has yet to send in any amendments. I’m waiting on some information to come to me in the mail and I was also looking for some good ideas to come from this thread. Rest assured that I plan on putting something together on all this once I have all the info that I’m waiting on in front of me and after I have some time to bounce my ideas off a few different people throughout the IMPBA.
Last edited:
Chris -
I’m not sure this would meet your wish for a 5-10 minutes inspection (I’d guess 20-30 mins), but I think it would go a long way toward making an inspection effective and relatively quick. These specs should be printed in the rule book, and ideally be tight (I.e., no large plus or minus variations on the measurements). Require that the club agree to check all of these at a large race like the Gas Nats.
1) Set a spec for stroke.
2) Set a spec for a squish band measurement, and describe how it is to be measured.
3) Set a spec for the carb Venturi and isolator block.
4) Set a spec on flywheel diameter and thickness.
5) Set specs on cylinder, and piston diameter.
6) Visually verify no grinding of ports, piston. Allow cleanup of piston/cylinder scratches.
7) Inspect crankcase seals and springs.
IMO this would cover most of what drivers would be concerned about, and if we could develop an inspection kit with some go/no go gauges available for big races, that would simplify and speed up the process. The kit(s) could be available by calling IMPBA, and would need to be returned.
To this list I’d include an inspection of the 1st place boat to assure it meets measurements and requirements in the rule book I.e., length, hardware on transom, etc). There was no boat inspection at the Indy Gas Nats.
And, as I mentioned above, I’d eliminate the gas/oil fuel rule as it is printed in the rule book, and just say, “ Open Fuel permitted”, for both stock and mod classes, since there’s no practical way to inspect our fuel anyway.
Hope this is helpful.
Mike Neal
I’m not sure this would meet your wish for a 5-10 minutes inspection (I’d guess 20-30 mins), but I think it would go a long way toward making an inspection effective and relatively quick. These specs should be printed in the rule book, and ideally be tight (I.e., no large plus or minus variations on the measurements). Require that the club agree to check all of these at a large race like the Gas Nats.
1) Set a spec for stroke.
2) Set a spec for a squish band measurement, and describe how it is to be measured.
3) Set a spec for the carb Venturi and isolator block.
4) Set a spec on flywheel diameter and thickness.
5) Set specs on cylinder, and piston diameter.
6) Visually verify no grinding of ports, piston. Allow cleanup of piston/cylinder scratches.
7) Inspect crankcase seals and springs.
IMO this would cover most of what drivers would be concerned about, and if we could develop an inspection kit with some go/no go gauges available for big races, that would simplify and speed up the process. The kit(s) could be available by calling IMPBA, and would need to be returned.
To this list I’d include an inspection of the 1st place boat to assure it meets measurements and requirements in the rule book I.e., length, hardware on transom, etc). There was no boat inspection at the Indy Gas Nats.
And, as I mentioned above, I’d eliminate the gas/oil fuel rule as it is printed in the rule book, and just say, “ Open Fuel permitted”, for both stock and mod classes, since there’s no practical way to inspect our fuel anyway.
Hope this is helpful.
Mike Neal
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2019
- Messages
- 1,208
Mike,
You are 100% on track with my own thoughts on all of this. I grabbed 10 minutes out from thin air, I just want to end up with something practical that most can agree with. Some of the engine guys will have to clue me in on the best way to check some of these items like the seal springs, if that’s to be checked. I think some of the items on your list like the flywheel piston and carb, could easily be checked with a set of calibers and a scale. Either way I don’t think it needs to be a big deal and the how and what should definitely be in the rule book.
Thank you for the input.
Bradley Maglinger
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2012
- Messages
- 1,854
Hello Mike, I dont know when Indy had a Gas Nats but if you are referring to the Evansville Indiana Gas Nats in 2021 we absolutely teched boats with go no go gauges before they could get in the water. Mike Schindler and I assigned Bruce and Doug Clark to put a gas nats decal on the transom after they were inspected and we marked the stock motors.
Bradley Maglinger
SayMikey
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2003
- Messages
- 12,728
Mike Neal what you saw was someone that knew what they were doing teaching a club member how to tech a motor correctly YOUR QUOTE>I also saw way too many people in inspection, including people picking up parts off the table, and looking them over. It made me uncomfortable seeing someone holding a motor part that wasn’t theirs. My personal opinion is that in inspection it should be the driver, his/her pitman, the inspectors, and that’s it. IN AN EFFERT TO GET IT RIGHT WE HAD A CLUB MEMBER LEARN THE PORCEDURE...... Another issue with the rule book is unless you know where to look the inspection procedure is hiding in plain sight.......
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2003
- Messages
- 1,488
How about these.
Spec Motor Inspection
Inspection to include all parts of motor: a. Fasteners: Stock or Stainless
b. Gasket Thickness: Carburetor .017 to 0.023; Manifold .017 to .023; Case .017 to .019; Base/Barrel .014 to .018 may be copper or fiber
c. Seals: Springs
d. Bearings: Stock
e. Flywheel: Diameter 2.358 to 2.362, Thickness .800 to .810 – Keyway .118 to .123
f. Crank Rod, Piston, and Ring – Keyway .118 to .123 Piston diameter above ring compared to piston diameter below wristpin = max. diameter difference of 0.0015
g. Intake Manifold: Thickness .680 to .702 (Allow to sand gasket sealing area only to make flat)
h. Ignition Parts – Color (original red & gray) – Slotted Holes
i. Case to Crank Shaft Top .908 to .912 j. Barrel (Cylinder) Depth 1.9650 to 2.0000
k. Must have original cooling cap – painting, anodizing, and etching allowed.
l. 34mm (1.338 inch) bore, 28mm (1.102 inch) stroke
Spec Motor Inspection
Inspection to include all parts of motor: a. Fasteners: Stock or Stainless
b. Gasket Thickness: Carburetor .017 to 0.023; Manifold .017 to .023; Case .017 to .019; Base/Barrel .014 to .018 may be copper or fiber
c. Seals: Springs
d. Bearings: Stock
e. Flywheel: Diameter 2.358 to 2.362, Thickness .800 to .810 – Keyway .118 to .123
f. Crank Rod, Piston, and Ring – Keyway .118 to .123 Piston diameter above ring compared to piston diameter below wristpin = max. diameter difference of 0.0015
g. Intake Manifold: Thickness .680 to .702 (Allow to sand gasket sealing area only to make flat)
h. Ignition Parts – Color (original red & gray) – Slotted Holes
i. Case to Crank Shaft Top .908 to .912 j. Barrel (Cylinder) Depth 1.9650 to 2.0000
k. Must have original cooling cap – painting, anodizing, and etching allowed.
l. 34mm (1.338 inch) bore, 28mm (1.102 inch) stroke
Bradley -
Yes, the boats were all teched before the race at Evansville, and I think that was great of the club to do that. I should have been more specific in what I meant to say. I did not see any post race tech of any of the top three boats. It’s a quick thing to do, and could be streamlined by doing just the 1st place boat. I get that at Evansville doing a pre race boat tech was sufficient, I think going forward, a post- race boat tech might be worth doing. Thanks for clarifying Bradley.
Mike
Yes, the boats were all teched before the race at Evansville, and I think that was great of the club to do that. I should have been more specific in what I meant to say. I did not see any post race tech of any of the top three boats. It’s a quick thing to do, and could be streamlined by doing just the 1st place boat. I get that at Evansville doing a pre race boat tech was sufficient, I think going forward, a post- race boat tech might be worth doing. Thanks for clarifying Bradley.
Mike
Kevin -
This is where the rubber would meet the road on setting specs for the stock motors -(ie, we need someone knowledgeable to make recommendations to the board, and membership as to what the specs and variances should be).
This said, I have concerns about setting specs with variances that are large. For instance, a spec on cylinder depth that has a variance of .035 sounds like a lot to me (I think that’s what is in the rule book right now, correct)? I’d personally prefer tight variances to discourage the temptation to blueprint motors.
To Chris’s point, do we really care about fittings and if they are stock/stainless? Worrying about such things invites disqualification for something that will not affect performance.
Nothing we do in this direction will be perfect, but if we set some specs on areas of the motor that might significantly influence performance, and we keep the spec variations somewhat tight, we would create a situation where all participants would have motors that should be close to each other, and the participants would have confidence that since inspection is relatively easy, it will happen.
Mike
This is where the rubber would meet the road on setting specs for the stock motors -(ie, we need someone knowledgeable to make recommendations to the board, and membership as to what the specs and variances should be).
This said, I have concerns about setting specs with variances that are large. For instance, a spec on cylinder depth that has a variance of .035 sounds like a lot to me (I think that’s what is in the rule book right now, correct)? I’d personally prefer tight variances to discourage the temptation to blueprint motors.
To Chris’s point, do we really care about fittings and if they are stock/stainless? Worrying about such things invites disqualification for something that will not affect performance.
Nothing we do in this direction will be perfect, but if we set some specs on areas of the motor that might significantly influence performance, and we keep the spec variations somewhat tight, we would create a situation where all participants would have motors that should be close to each other, and the participants would have confidence that since inspection is relatively easy, it will happen.
Mike
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2004
- Messages
- 2,866
7 pages, 138 posts expressing concerns, proposing extensive solutions to fixing a flawed concept of stock classes and NO consensus on a solution or solutions.
It should become eventually apparent there is a problem with STOCK CLASS RACING, whether you are racing FROGS OR Ferrari’s.
It should become eventually apparent there is a problem with STOCK CLASS RACING, whether you are racing FROGS OR Ferrari’s.
Similar threads
