Thoughts on the Stock Class rules

[Hydro Junkie]

Don, I wasn't saying I was in favor of engine tear downs, just giving a fast way to quickly check one if a CD wanted to go that route. With an appropriately sized bore guage, it would take less than 30 seconds to check the bore in the three locations I listed and less than 10 to check the jug's depth or piston diameter once the jug is off. I am also well aware that there are other ways to cheat, none of which can be easily checked at the pond. I'm also not in favor of the claim rule for the same reasons already listed by others. If you really want to check an engine for illegal mods, you would probably need to send it into a shop and have it flow tested and probably totally stripped down and checked out. As said previously, are we really willing to go that far to catch a someone racing a "toy" boat with an illegally modded engine? This is, in a nutshell, why I run scale. I don't worry about others or what they have done to their engines, I just race for the fun of racing and, with that, I'm out of this thread

 

[ChrisHerzog]

You can’t stop 100% of every single thing that guys try and do to get around the rules. It’s racing, racing is prone to make guys think outside the box and push the limits.
I originally asked if we could come up with a list of 5 or 6 items to easily check and overlook the rest of the BS. Yes Don, there are a few different ways to raise the compression and I’m aware of most of them. I would say if that’s an issue to put on the list, cool let’s put it on the list. If we can first agree on the things that need to be on the list, we can then come up with a set of procedures to check those things. Doc said it best, all these post and it’s just a bunch of talk, talk, talk and nobody getting anywhere.

My list of what a tech inspection should consist of….

1)Bore
2)Stroke
3)Compression
4)Cut or modded piston
5)Port and timing (If the transfer ports or exhaust timing has been altered)
6)The stock car (The carb housing has to be unaltered).
7)Stock type front seal (No zero drag seals)

What is your list? Don’t worry about how it’s done yet, just what you think need to be on it.

 

[Barrie Lever]

Outsider here, but former podium placing in Naviga Hydro and heaps of experience in 'Stock' model aircraft classes. Things like bore and stroke checking in stock classes are so 'old hat' the fast guys know that the engine could get pulled at some stage, so the tweaks are subtle and just cannot be seen.

Think looser bearing seats on the OD of the bearings, think ID of bearings held onto shafts with loctite, think higher C rating of bearings maybe even achieved by loading their own selected balls into the bearing, think con rod clearances.

So fit a restrictor plate to all the engines but the engine with the least drag is still going to be the fastest engine.

None of the above can be easily checked and makes a huge difference.

Good luck

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Outsider here, but former podium placing in Naviga Hydro and heaps of experience in 'Stock' model aircraft classes. Things like bore and stroke checking in stock classes are so 'old hat' the fast guys know that the engine could get pulled at some stage, so the tweaks are subtle and just cannot be seen.

Think looser bearing seats on the OD of the bearings, think ID of bearings held onto shafts with loctite, think higher C rating of bearings maybe even achieved by loading their own selected balls into the bearing, think con rod clearances.

So fit a restrictor plate to all the engines but the engine with the least drag is still going to be the fastest engine.

None of the above can be easily checked and makes a huge difference.

Good luck

Like I previously stated, you can’t check everything and at the same time be practical with it. Pick the handful of items that you think would make the biggest difference while at the same be able to except and IGNORE the rest.

Yes, we can go on forever and make a list a mile long of things to look at but my goal is to find what really matters to most everyone, then be able to check it easily and have everyone ok and able to except those results. This is why it needs to be changed from a Stock class to a Spec class.

 

[Barrie Lever]

Although I have not implemented it I do think that a claiming rule is good.

Bring in your 5 or 6 key check points but I guarantee that there will still be engines stronger than others, part of this will be down to good running fits.

Of course there is another thing in stock classes and that is that the fast guys make the engine look good i.e. they trim the model and setup better and that makes it look like the engine is better than it actually is.

People will rarely admit that their building and preparation is crap, so blame it on the other guys engine.

Claiming rules does away with this. Easy way to implement this is that the claimer has to put his wallet down on the table before the competition begins and claims his purchase after the competition has finished, 'no dollars no engine'

 

[osracer]

You use the phrase "That much cheating " possibly lightly . Cheating is the ultimate slap in the face and means that person is a liar and an ******* in my book but that's just me .

I guess I should have said that many people cheating.

 

[user 21992]

WOW !! ALL THIS FOR TOY BOATS. Sorry, been following this thread and agree and disagree with many of what's been said. A few years back, an upper D4 club came up with an idea of running a Unlimited Thunder Boat Class and built three of them. Well, that never took off.
I.M.P.B.A. and local clubs in general, NEEDS NEW BLOOD FROM THE YOUNGER GENERATION:
1. Leave the four 26cc Gas Stock Classes as they are with no Tech involved. But, put an age limit to the class, say the age of 8 to18. Now, give that age group a requirement of signing up for racing in 26cc stock classes with I.M..P.B.A. and make note of ones advancement in major and local events, buy way of the host event CD'S, before one can advancing to unlimited classes. Make this list easy to view buy way of I.M.P.B.A. website
2. Now, all other classes, would all become Open Gas or better yet, Unlimited Boat Racing ( Still would have to stay within the LSG Engine rules, mainly additives and fuel use),

Good Luck and Let's All have a Better NEW YEAR !!

 

[Tom Foley]

WOW !! ALL THIS FOR TOY BOATS. Sorry, been following this thread and agree and disagree with many of what's been said. A few years back, an upper D4 club came up with an idea of running a Unlimited Thunder Boat Class and built three of them. Well, that never took off.
I.M.P.B.A. and local clubs in general, NEEDS NEW BLOOD FROM THE YOUNGER GENERATION:
1. Leave the four 26cc Gas Stock Classes as they are with no Tech involved. But, put an age limit to the class, say the age of 8 to18. Now, give that age group a requirement of signing up for racing in 26cc stock classes with I.M..P.B.A. and make note of ones advancement in major and local events, buy way of the host event CD'S, before one can advancing to unlimited classes. Make this list easy to view buy way of I.M.P.B.A. website
2. Now, all other classes, would all become Open Gas or better yet, Unlimited Boat Racing ( Still would have to stay within the LSG Engine rules, mainly additives and fuel use),

Good Luck and Let's All have a Better NEW YEAR !!

Age limit ? Lol have you looked up at the drivers stand at ANY race ? 90 % over 50 drivers . Class would be empty . I would love to see a host of younger drivers but after 35 years of observation it's not going to happen .

 

[Jeremyhines]

Yeah i agree age limits not going to cut it. We have a set of rules in place that’s been working . You have to have a little faith in your fellow man . If there was rampant cheating going on and somebody was aware and didn’t say nothing then that’s a problem. We have to assume every win clean or protest it right then and there. Not sit back and cast shade and innuendo. Bottom line what we got seems to be working .

 

[osracer]

I think part of the problem is risk and reward. The risk is if you get caught it will cost you $25 and you will be disqualified for that race. The reward is you are getting away with something and you may even win.
I think we have to get more aggressive on the punishment. $25 is nothing and I’m not even sure it’s appropriate when we aren’t racing for money. I would suggest
1. First time getting caught
Suspended for 90 days and name posted in Rooster Tail
2. Second time caught
Suspended one year and name posted in Rooster Tail
3. Third time caught
Banned for life
Note, I said first time caught not first offense because they’ve probably been doing it for awhile before they got caught.

 

[Danny King]

I think part of the problem is risk and reward. The risk is if you get caught it will cost you $25 and you will be disqualified for that race. The reward is you are getting away with something and you may even win.

AND having it be known you CHEATED!!!
Do not gloss over that fact.

The system is working. There is no perfect but this works. I do believe it could work just as well streamlined.
Without inspections there is no integrity.
One thing I can’t stand and haven’t liked it since coming back into boats is the term”toy boats”
It is obvious by how many of the rc boats run they are simply toys to them. But not one of these are store bought rtr toys. They require lots and lots of time. And we are spending $1000 to travel to race, that isn’t toy money to 90% of the field. Stop belittling People with the term toy boat. soap box cars are More like Toys and have plenty of rules.

 

[Daniel's Racing]

Like I previously stated, you can’t check everything and at the same time be practical with it. Pick the handful of items that you think would make the biggest difference while at the same be able to except and IGNORE the rest.

Yes, we can go on forever and make a list a mile long of things to look at but my goal is to find what really matters to most everyone, then be able to check it easily and have everyone ok and able to except those results. This is why it needs to be changed from a Stock class to a Spec class.

Stock is the Spec. Run stock and your in spec. Just a different name. The spec is do not touch a thing, All really pretty simple.

 

[Grimracer]

Leisure time boat?

Grim

 

[Mark Bullard]

You can’t stop 100% of every single thing that guys try and do to get around the rules. It’s racing, racing is prone to make guys think outside the box and push the limits.
I originally asked if we could come up with a list of 5 or 6 items to easily check and overlook the rest of the BS. Yes Don, there are a few different ways to raise the compression and I’m aware of most of them. I would say if that’s an issue to put on the list, cool let’s put it on the list. If we can first agree on the things that need to be on the list, we can then come up with a set of procedures to check those things. Doc said it best, all these post and it’s just a bunch of talk, talk, talk and nobody getting anywhere.

My list of what a tech inspection should consist of….

1)Bore
2)Stroke
3)Compression
4)Cut or modded piston
5)Port and timing (If the transfer ports or exhaust timing has been altered)
6)The stock car (The carb housing has to be unaltered).
7)Stock type front seal (No zero drag seals)

What is your list? Don’t worry about how it’s done yet, just what you think need to be on it.

Here is my list.
1) Restrictor plate mounted on the outside of carb with a go/no-go gauge. I am guessing that some sort of sealing will be required to the face of the carb. But should be able to be done with a o-ring fitted into the plate that seals to the carb face.
2) Some sort of standard exhaust, canister type, a standard pipe. Either way one type of exhaust with go/no-go gauge.
And if protested the next two is checked. Of course all are used on records.
3) Bore
4) Stroke
And change the name from "Stock" to "Spec"

 

[Zimmerman]

I have a 29.5 built by Maston. It has a weird blob of stuff on one of the jug bolts. I wonder what that is for ... Hmmm. So get the Zenoa dealers together to decide on a mixture of 2 or 3 different nail polishes to get a color no one could possibly duplicate. How much trouble would it be for them to paint all of the bolts (or maybe 1-2 critical ones) on a new engine.

 

[SayMikey]

Tamper proof bolts that break off when tightened........
I think the current rule set works, Tech at the Nats and let the protest begin at local races. The only change id make is only the class winner can be protested. Otherwise a pissed off racer can put up $50 and tear them all down

 

[K F Wheeler]

First off, I have to agree with Danny King 100%. But I have some junk to throw into this fight/discussion... One way to stop the cheating in the STOCK class would be to run hand out engines... I can hear all the moans and groans from here!!! Some engines could be swapped out for the third group to run their next heat if there are that many boats in that class. Suggest swapping engines randomly anyway. Once everybody gets use to having to pull an engine and putting another one in. The changing will soon be smooth and quick. Race flyer should state type of collet will be used, clamping/square drive. End of season all the engines should be checked and set up for the next season. Some technical tid bits will have to be worked out. like what kind of throttle hook up etc. Engines could be loaned to other clubs etc... Then if somebody STILL finds a way to cheat, name goes in Rooster Tail AND BANED for one year from ALL classes!!!

 

[Wasted wages]

Problem with running hand out engines is after one or two races, there will be clear performer's. Motors that run better than others. There would be no control on how many times the motors were run hot or lean.
Trash in fuel, and carbs, motors run with gas that doesn't have enough oil..

Issues are sure to arise...

 

[SayMikey]

First off, I have to agree with Danny King 100%. But I have some junk to throw into this fight/discussion... One way to stop the cheating in the STOCK class would be to run hand out engines... I can hear all the moans and groans from here!!! Some engines could be swapped out for the third group to run their next heat if there are that many boats in that class. Suggest swapping engines randomly anyway. Once everybody gets use to having to pull an engine and putting another one in. The changing will soon be smooth and quick. Race flyer should state type of collet will be used, clamping/square drive. End of season all the engines should be checked and set up for the next season. Some technical tid bits will have to be worked out. like what kind of throttle hook up etc. Engines could be loaned to other clubs etc... Then if somebody STILL finds a way to cheat, name goes in Rooster Tail AND BANED for one year from ALL classes!!!

Where in the hell are you going to get hand out engines? Cheating stretching the rules pleading ignorance its all part of the game.......CONSIDER THIS THUNDERBOAT REMAINS ONE OF THE LARGEST CLASSES RUN AT MOST RACES

 

[K F Wheeler]

Where in the hell are you going to get hand out engines? Cheating stretching the rules pleading ignorance its all part of the game.......CONSIDER THIS THUNDERBOAT REMAINS ONE OF THE LARGEST CLASSES RUN AT MOST RACES

Duh.. Anywhere you buy a new stock engine!!! You tell the manufacturer you want x number of engines that are all the same and you may even get a break in price for the volume. Only reason you may need to tell the manufacturer you need them all the same is because some natural updates may be made as production is running...