SPORT 20 Outboard motor question

[Carl Van Houten]

Kris,
I would agree. I would never protest a chrome liner in round track situation but timed events and Nationals should be held to the book "OEM sleeves only" (O/S brand chrome liners are not offered as marine parts).

I have never protested anybody. Protest are mood busters for sure and is why the original IMPBA sport 21 tunnel rules were tweaked to what they are today. (Yes, the rules were changed) The series correct stuff ran a lot of people away from outboards and those drivers are now running the rigger hydros and gas classes never to return.

Everybody knows that you can't have a discussion about rules (not even good ideas) on here because there are too many haters on this site that will fly down off their limb like a swarm of freaking wild kamikaze's if you dare mention changing the rules! LOL

If you see a cheater just build something that will blow his cheating crap off the pond! LOL Make it a personal goal...it will feel GREAT when you run him back to the house by following the rules of the class.

-Carl

 

[Grimracer]

Mr.Lee
Let me say this.When I started in 1985 B-TUNNEL WAS a STOCK CLASS you couldn't do any thing inside or outside the engine you had to run it the way it come from the factory.In 1995 they came long and change the rules to B-SPORT TUNNEL and you can do what ever you what to do inside the engine.

Dave,

I got to thinking.. IF.. IMPBA was racing a 21 stock outboard class back then why today do we not?..

IF what you are saying is correct then from some time around 1985 to 1995 the "Stock" class was a thing...

Having said this.. I have not seen any reminisce or mention of a 21 tunnel stock class in the past years of the IMPBA.. Its not in the book anyplace were I can see it.

The Sport class is not the same class...

Maybe for those wanting a true stock class (its not me) start it at a club level and grow it.. ya never know just might take off again.

Regards!

Grim

 

[Geraghty]

Dave,

I got to thinking.. IF.. IMPBA was racing a 21 stock outboard class back then why today do we not?..

IF what you are saying is correct then from some time around 1985 to 1995 the "Stock" class was a thing...

Having said this.. I have not seen any reminisce or mention of a 21 tunnel stock class in the past years of the IMPBA.. Its not in the book anyplace were I can see it.

The Sport class is not the same class...

Maybe for those wanting a true stock class (its not me) start it at a club level and grow it.. ya never know just might take off again.

Regards!

Grim

Mike,
Turns out there was a "stock Tunnel" class rule in "District 4" in 1985...... After some research ,there was a class initiated by District 4 to run a K&B stock .21 outboards class ....
The rule duplicated what was running in NAMBA at the time.....I suspect That Gary Preusse had something to do with that....He was the local K&B motor supplier... That was only a "district 4 rule" ..Prior to 1995 when the National IMPBA Sport .21 rules were proposed there were no .21 IMPBA National Sport Tunnel rules in place or in the IMPBA rule book.....
Roach was half right....1985 was his first race and he went to the race in district 4 and he had no idea about "District" and "National IMPBA" rules and how the two don't meet....
Rod

 

[Geraghty]

Dave,

I got to thinking.. IF.. IMPBA was racing a 21 stock outboard class back then why today do we not?..

IF what you are saying is correct then from some time around 1985 to 1995 the "Stock" class was a thing...

Having said this.. I have not seen any reminisce or mention of a 21 tunnel stock class in the past years of the IMPBA.. Its not in the book anyplace were I can see it.

The Sport class is not the same class...

Maybe for those wanting a true stock class (its not me) start it at a club level and grow it.. ya never know just might take off again.

Regards!

Grim

There was a "stock Tunnel" class in "District 4" in 1985...... There was a class initiated by Gary Preusse in District 4 to run K&B stock .21 outboards....That was only a "district rule" ..Prior to 1995 when the National IMPBA Sport .21 rules were proposed there were no .21 Sport Tunnel rules in the rule book.....

 

[Geraghty]

Kris,

(Yes, the rules were changed) The series correct stuff ran a lot of people away from outboards and those drivers are now running the rigger hydros and gas classes never to return.


-Carl

Carl,
I want you to tell me how and where the rules have changed....I just read the existing rules and they are identical to the rules we proposed in 1995 at the AGM in Huntsville with two exceptions....
1] The original rules had a $400.00 claim on motors that was insisted upon by Fred McBroom....That was removed from the rules 2 years later....
2]The rule that was added was the addition of a 3rd channel was ok but the original needle had to stay in the carb....You could just cut off the original needle or back it out of play and use a remote mounted needle....
I am confused ....Now tell me how those rule changes ran people out of the class never to return?....

 

[Kris Flynn]

Rod,

Looks to have been changed in the last few years under Bob Kensil guidance. #3 is what I am talking about and assume Carl is also. Always has been rumours of people running novarossi parts (cranks/piston + liners)

B. Engine Specifications
1. Engines must be standard factory production with a minimum of 100 units available for sale to the general public. To be eligible for the International Regatta the engines must have been offered for sale to the general public not less than ninety (90) days prior to that year's International Regatta.
2. The powerhead and lower unit must be of the same manufacturer and model.
3. The engine external parts shall remain as originally manufactured, but any part from a manufacturer’s outboard may be replaced with any other outboard part for the same size outboard from the same manufacturer, the exception being that slide valve exhaust adapters may not be used with carburetor equipped engines.
4. The following exceptions will be allowed in the Sport Outboard Tunnel specifications:a. Adhesives (loctite), set screws and jam nuts.b. Any carb linkage arms.c. Any motor mount.d. Any glow plug, fuel brand and mixture.e. Any type steering arm

https://nebula.wsimg.com/b7f1ed92b4...7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
page H-10

 

[Kris Flynn]

Kris,
I would agree. I would never protest a chrome liner in round track situation but timed events and Nationals should be held to the book "OEM sleeves only" (O/S brand chrome liners are not offered as marine parts).

I have never protested anybody. Protest are mood busters for sure and is why the original IMPBA sport 21 tunnel rules were tweaked to what they are today. (Yes, the rules were changed) The series correct stuff ran a lot of people away from outboards and those drivers are now running the rigger hydros and gas classes never to return.

Everybody knows that you can't have a discussion about rules (not even good ideas) on here because there are too many haters on this site that will fly down off their limb like a swarm of freaking wild kamikaze's if you dare mention changing the rules! LOL

If you see a cheater just build something that will blow his cheating crap off the pond! LOL Make it a personal goal...it will feel GREAT when you run him back to the house by following the rules of the class.

-Carl

I really like your last comment. Seems to have been some petty protests in recent years about stuff that really has no bearing on performance. More people need to start wondering how they can do better and beat others and lift themselves up, rather than what they can do to bring others down!

While money can buy your props and motors, only time on the water and learning your WHOLE combo and becoming a better racer is where it is at for the most part.

Cheers
Kris

 

[rumrunner]

When bob changed the rule that you couldn’t use rg it just cost people money. I could run rg sleeve for years longer than the stock sleeve, it just lasted longer.

 

[Geraghty]

Rod,

Looks to have been changed in the last few years under Bob Kensil guidance. #3 is what I am talking about and assume Carl is also. Always has been rumours of people running novarossi parts (cranks/piston + liners)

B. Engine Specifications
1. Engines must be standard factory production with a minimum of 100 units available for sale to the general public. To be eligible for the International Regatta the engines must have been offered for sale to the general public not less than ninety (90) days prior to that year's International Regatta.
2. The powerhead and lower unit must be of the same manufacturer and model.
3. The engine external parts shall remain as originally manufactured, but any part from a manufacturer’s outboard may be replaced with any other outboard part for the same size outboard from the same manufacturer, the exception being that slide valve exhaust adapters may not be used with carburetor equipped engines.
4. The following exceptions will be allowed in the Sport Outboard Tunnel specifications:a. Adhesives (loctite), set screws and jam nuts.b. Any carb linkage arms.c. Any motor mount.d. Any glow plug, fuel brand and mixture.e. Any type steering arm

https://nebula.wsimg.com/b7f1ed92b4...7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1
page H-10

Kris,
What makes you think that Kensill did that.....That rule was in the original 1995 proposal from Tommy and me.....There were boaters years earlier in NAMBA using that slide valve adapter to dump exhaust...That is why Tommy and I addressed it in the proposal....
As I recall NAMBA cleaned that up in the late 80's....I am old and my memory sometimes fails me.... but as I recall NAMBA cleaned up this loop hole by say any changes to the motor was legal for reliability and safety...no performance enhancers were allowed....That was the way NAMBA handled that adapter....
That is what some guys were doing in NAMBA years earlier to dump more exhaust.....
Really...I don't know why I am even responding to this thread ..... I really don't care what sleeve you run ....you believe what you want to believe....that's fine with me ...bye , bye...lol
One more thing.....I don't know about you down under and protests but I can't remember anyone ever laying down the $$$ and protesting a Sport .21 motor in North America in NAMBA or IMPBA or APBA.......I may be wrong and if I am , I apologize in advance...once again ...bye , bye....

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Thanks Kris.

The rules have changed. Just read original rules and then read the current ones. People didn't like it at first but now everybody loves them. I have heard nobody complain. I like them, everybody is happy as far as I know.

I just wish that we could figure out how to all get along at least long enough to get the 7.5cc and 11cc included in the rules so that we could run SAW and 2-lap records in those classes too and then we can all start fighting again after that.

LOL...well

 

[Geraghty]

Thanks Kris.

The rules have changed. Just read original rules and then read the current ones. People didn't like it at first but now everybody loves them. I have heard nobody complain. I like them, everybody is happy as far as I know.

I just wish that we could figure out how to all get along at least long enough to get the 7.5cc and 11cc included in the rules so that we could run SAW and 2-lap records in those classes too and then we can all start fighting again after that.

LOL...well

I ask again ....how did the rules change????? what rule changed????? what rules drove racers to FE and gas??? post them....I still have no idea what rules you are talking about... be specific....
Are you talking about a set of "Sport" 7.5CC and a set of "Sport" 11CC rules???? hell include 1.0 CI in those rules .... at least MECOA makes and sells a motor for that class....
If want them , write a set and propose them....I suspect you won't get any resistance.....

 

[Geraghty]

Right up front I want to apologize for my bad memory and recollections... Kensill probably did include that exhaust adapter rule in the IMPBA Sport .21 rules....I got my memory mixed up with the NAMBA/APBA stock tunnel rules decable at that time..I was right in the middle that debacle also..During the early 90's we broke from NAMBA District 8 and formed the APBA organization.....
This is a fact..... I do remember crystal clear that Dick Tyndall asked Tommy and me to write Sport 21 Tunnel rules because he couldn't get Kensill to write them for the annual general IMPBA meeting in 1995....
I don't remember who initially came up with using that exhaust adapter [It might have been Dunlap] but I know it was addressed by NAMBA & APBA prior to 1995 the IMPBA rules...
I am digging deep but I seem to recall we considered it but since we had a go - no go for exhaust in the Sport 21 rules there was no reason to not use any adapter that anybody wanted to use....
Even if a racer did use the wrong adapter it didn't amount to a pile of crap....there was more exhaust coming out of a K&B can than that slit in that adapter....
Sxxt...I am almost 80 and all this took place over 30 years ago and I am living proof that memories fade....

Parting shot......If anybody thinks they are being crapped on.... well step up and get involved.....Write some rules , propose them , and change the offerings....
If you want something to change then change it....there is a process and vehicle in place to do that.....I will support that approach...

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Rod, Just go read post #26.

Once again, the rules were changed...the way they are written now they allow parts "across series engines of the same manufacturer" to be interchanged where before you could not do that and compete in the class. You should be glad this was done because for example the engine Tommy is running in the 3.5 sport SAW times could not be used as is because it would not have been legal to run the long pipe and the water cooled head together. So if as you say the rules have not changed, does that record need to be pulled out of the books? I already know what your answer to that question will be.

Before the rules were changed, I have seen racers drive for hundreds of miles only to get removed from competition because the flywheel they had on their engine did not come with the original engine they were running. I can have that racer come to this forum and tell you what happened to him and there were many others like him. Are you trying to say that this kind of stuff never happened?

Well, it did and it pissed a lot of racers off and was why the rules were changed. I am not trying to be combative but only trying to keep things clear about what is stated in the rules. I have enjoyed watching the progress you and your team have accomplished with the sport 3.5cc SAW tunnel and I hope the 70mph barrier can soon be broken.

I hope this helps.
-Carl

 

[Grimracer]

Carl,

Have you ever considered running for IMPBA outboard director. You have good knowledge of the class..

Grim

 

[Geraghty]

Rod, Just go read post #26.

Once again, the rules were changed...the way they are written now they allow parts "across series engines of the same manufacturer" to be interchanged where before you could not do that and compete in the class. You should be glad this was done because for example the engine Tommy is running in the 3.5 sport SAW times could not be used as is because it would not have been legal to run the long pipe and the water cooled head together. So if as you say the rules have not changed, does that record need to be pulled out of the books? I already know what your answer to that question will be.

Before the rules were changed, I have seen racers drive for hundreds of miles only to get removed from competition because the flywheel they had on their engine did not come with the original engine they were running. I can have that racer come to this forum and tell you what happened to him and there were many others like him. Are you trying to say that this kind of stuff never happened?

Well, it did and it pissed a lot of racers off and was why the rules were changed. I am not trying to be combative but only trying to keep things clear about what is stated in the rules. I have enjoyed watching the progress you and your team have accomplished with the sport 3.5cc SAW tunnel and I hope the 70mph barrier can soon be broken.

I hope this helps.
-Carl

At last....I think and Iunderstand where you are coming from and what you are talking about....I recall there was a question about rule interpretations back then and that was re-addressed in the IMPBA rules.....thanks for getting me to remember that....
This was the exact 3. 5 OPC tunnel rule that was in the APBA rules book that I was sure Tommy and I included in our IMPBA proposal.....maybe we didn't....I honestly don't remember....
This APBA rule was written in 1989 and I thought we had transferred that directly rule right into our IMPBA proposal....
I hope you can see you can see why I was confused....

https://www.apba.org/documents/12357477-08292018-012RCmodel.pdf

3. Engine parts must remain as originally manufactured for that size and style engine (no modifications). Interchanging of parts from one series or edition to another is legal as long as the parts used were made by the engine manufacturer and were used on outboard engines and meet the requirements set forth in
Subsection C.
Note: Slide valve exhaust configuration parts cannot be used in conjunction with a carbu r e t o r.

 

[Kris Flynn]

Grim, you are correct, Carl seems to have a ton of knowledge about this stuff! Been around a long time it seems ;-)

WHO is the current IMPBA Outboard director?

Rod, what I see a potential issue with is the below word in red.
Is there a link to the rules from 5 years ago to confirm 100%? I know the below clarified you can run a water cooled head on an air cooled motor and air cooled pipe on the water cooled motor, but it also outlawed any internal mods at the same time and takes away from the inteent of the original rules which is less technical inspection required the better!
3. The engine external parts shall remain as originally manufactured, but any part from a manufacturer’s outboard may be replaced with any other outboard part for the same size outboard from the same manufacturer, the exception being that slide valve exhaust adapters may not be used with carburetor equipped engines.

I race IMPBA when I come to the USA, so I want to be sure no one can call me out as (believe it or not) not everyone likes me over there LOL

 

[Grimracer]

Bob Kensill
(260) 409.0618

[email protected]

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Kris if you come over here and race with us you will be treated fairly no matter who likes or don't like you. I for one may have my needle ready for you as I would even my best friend when the clock runs down but if I saw someone do you wrong I would probably be more upset than you would be. I hope you do come race with us one day.

I had to think about the Outboard Director thing... I would be okay with that. The first thing I would like to see done is to get all outboard classes approved to run for records. I know that I could do that without being the outboard director and I am familiar with that process from my involvement in the LSG Outboard Tunnel Class. I will start addressing the task of getting all the outboard classes eligible for records regardless of the outcome of who will be your outboard director.

 

[Geraghty]

[QUOTE="Carl Van Houten, post:

I had to think about the Outboard Director thing... I would be okay with that. The first thing I would like to see done is to get all outboard classes approved to run for records. I know that I could do that without being the outboard director, If ya'll want that I would accept the position.[/QUOTE]

Carl,
That's something to think about......Maybe you could also make the Sport 21 class a USA-1 class ..
If you consider the number of entries that attend the Internats......It should be a USA-1 class.....
Only my opinion , nothing more...No offense to Bob Kensill but I personally believe that board positions should be chaired with "active" racers....They have a dog in the fight.....

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

Right up front I want to apologize for my bad memory and recollections... Kensill probably did include that exhaust adapter rule in the IMPBA Sport .21 rules....I got my memory mixed up with the NAMBA/APBA stock tunnel rules decable at that time..I was right in the middle that debacle also..During the early 90's we broke from NAMBA District 8 and formed the APBA organization.....
This is a fact..... I do remember crystal clear that Dick Tyndall asked Tommy and me to write Sport 21 Tunnel rules because he couldn't get Kensill to write them for the annual general IMPBA meeting in 1995....
I don't remember who initially came up with using that exhaust adapter [It might have been Dunlap] but I know it was addressed by NAMBA & APBA prior to 1995 the IMPBA rules...
I am digging deep but I seem to recall we considered it but since we had a go - no go for exhaust in the Sport 21 rules there was no reason to not use any adapter that anybody wanted to use....
Even if a racer did use the wrong adapter it didn't amount to a pile of crap....there was more exhaust coming out of a K&B can than that slit in that adapter....
Sxxt...I am almost 80 and all this took place over 30 years ago and I am living proof that memories fade....

Parting shot......If anybody thinks they are being crapped on.... well step up and get involved.....Write some rules , propose them , and change the offerings....
If you want something to change then change it....there is a process and vehicle in place to do that.....I will support that approach...

Jeez, if I did come up with using the slide exhaust adapter it would probably be the first time I ever figured out how to allow exhaust to escape. However, I have been disqualified twice at NAMBA Nats for running modified parts in a stock class and my son, Paul, disqualified once. In all three cases, the modified parts were borrowed from other District 8 outboard racers. However, bottom line just because I didn't realize the parts were modified doesn't absolve me using the parts.