"JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT"change the future nitro outboard RC boating

[Geraghty]

I absolutely agree with everything all are saying....nitro will never completely go away.....
This thread is now beginning to evolve with comments being posted that are making sense....all threads on IW eventually evolve....
Gas and FE have inherited a lot of old nitro racers.....I believe we need to slow down that desertion rate....
If old nitro suppliers like Novarossi go away that is a big hit......now the question is how does nitro RC boating respond to that hit?
It is time for me to step away and see where this subject goes.....I'm a pullin' for ya......

 

[MichaelRanger]

BUT One thing that will help tremendously with bringing the new generation to this hobby is TECHNOLOGY you will see a small part of what it can do at the Johnston City race, the club has a TV at the drivers stand with real time live scores of each class... Once you walk off the drivers stand you can look and see your score for the heat and where you stand overall in the particular class (instant gratification) what millienals love... Now it needs to be taken to the next step with a timing system for lap times and total heat race time. This will not only help draw interest but keep old boaters in the game also. It will help you be a better driver, know if the adjustment you made really did help or just made the # on the GPS go up.. MPH doesnt always equal quicker laps!!!

Totally agree with you Sam.
I'm here in the UK and race as part of the OMRA race series Offshore Model Racing Association. omra.co.uk and we have been using electronic timing for a couple of years now. Each of the boats has a unique transponder fitted into it which has been modified from its designed use in drone racing. Its actually an American system! Our TV screen displays the running order, sorts out all of the timing for the races and automatically collects the laps and displays it on the screen. We have another add-on to that when we are racing where there is likely to be a significant number of the public spectators where we have a wireless link back to the main screed and it piggy-backs the main screen. It is linked to an audible system and gives out the positions of the boats.
The new system hasn't been embraced by all racers but it has solved so many arguments! It works really great when we have sprint races as there aren't any arguments over the recorded times on a couple of stopwatches!
We race predominantly in the English Channel and have a gantry system set up that the boats pass under which is now 9 metres wide and the receivers are positioned on that. Again a wireless link sends the information back to the main receiver and the computer programme does the rest!

Regards,

Michael

 

[Darryl Patti]

15% nitro content? Might as well use 100% methanal. 25-40% is usually what people use. Knowing most people come to this hobby from Nitro Buggies and are used to running and paying for 25%-33% fuel.
And,
I thought the IMPBA already had a stock class of outboard.
Although a stock outboard is "not" a unmodified bone stock CMB/Rossi 7 port, bolted to a OS lower unit.
We pretty much know there is only 3 truly stock outboards out there.
K&B (3 port)
OS max (3 port)
Thunder Tiger (3 port)

I also remember a time when if you won a stock class the club could/would disassemble your engine to make sure your engine was stock, "Sleeve work, bearings, con rods and pistons"
Basicly a stock engine has one intake port and two boost ports. (3 port engine)
Problem is the clubs don't check and allow modified pistons/sleeves and tuned pipes.
Also, remember the stock outboard class died because the so called officials allowed CMB/Rossi "stock power heads" into the stock class.

But 15% I think you mean beginner class. (No Joke)

Another problem is when people come to a IMPBA race who are new to the sport, and forced to race against 20 year veterans with impeccable driving skills, the newcomer ends up leaving the hobby altogether.


Now a beginner class for any hull type, not just the outboard class, could be easy to maintain.
Threw IMPBA records we can see how long someone has been a member.
(Example) A beginner could be someone with IMPBA membership for no more than two years.

This would level the playing field considerably.

I remember when I first started running boats, my depth of field was non existent to say the least, so rounding the buoys was terrible vs a seasoned 20 year vet who could round the buoys with one eye closed.

But to take a already established stock class and require 15% fuel, I would never enter with that low of a fuel content.

Just my two cent.

We should be trying to get people into the hobby, not kill the hobby.

You are on the money imo.

 

[bzubee]

15% nitro content? Might as well use 100% methanal. 25-40% is usually what people use. Knowing most people come to this hobby from Nitro Buggies and are used to running and paying for 25%-33% fuel.
And,
I thought the IMPBA already had a stock class of outboard.
Although a stock outboard is "not" a unmodified bone stock CMB/Rossi 7 port, bolted to a OS lower unit.
We pretty much know there is only 3 truly stock outboards out there.
K&B (3 port)
OS max (3 port)
Thunder Tiger (3 port)

I also remember a time when if you won a stock class the club could/would disassemble your engine to make sure your engine was stock, "Sleeve work, bearings, con rods and pistons"
Basicly a stock engine has one intake port and two boost ports. (3 port engine)
Problem is the clubs don't check and allow modified pistons/sleeves and tuned pipes.
Also, remember the stock outboard class died because the so called officials allowed CMB/Rossi "stock power heads" into the stock class.

But 15% I think you mean beginner class. (No Joke)

Another problem is when people come to a IMPBA race who are new to the sport, and forced to race against 20 year veterans with impeccable driving skills, the newcomer ends up leaving the hobby altogether.


Now a beginner class for any hull type, not just the outboard class, could be easy to maintain.
Threw IMPBA records we can see how long someone has been a member.
(Example) A beginner could be someone with IMPBA membership for no more than two years.

This would level the playing field considerably.

I remember when I first started running boats, my depth of field was non existent to say the least, so rounding the buoys was terrible vs a seasoned 20 year vet who could round the buoys with one eye closed.

But to take a already established stock class and require 15% fuel, I would never enter with that low of a fuel content.

Just my two cent.

We should be trying to get people into the hobby, not kill the hobby.

IMPBA does not have a stock outboard class it's a sport .21 class no mods on the out side of the motor it is spelled out in the rulebook which can be accessed online at IMPBA A .net.

 

[Grimracer]

Thanks Bill.. not sure why we must keep pointing that out BUT.. Bill is dead on.

Thanks Bill!

Grim

 

[HTV Boats]

"Gas and FE have inherited a lot of old nitro racers.... I believe we have to slow down that desertion rate..."

I guess I qualify on all of the above. I tried Gas and it wasn't for me. So I became a "DESERTER" Hmmm $50 a gal fuel, $7 glow plugs and motors and pipes running close to the thousand dollar threshold. What's not to like? I campaigned for nitro limits 30 years ago to deaf ears.
Over the years I have promoted outboard races and supported classes driving miles to run and no one shows up. If you don't like FE fine, but it really works for me. My $80 motor has 2 bearings that rarely need replacing and $110 ESC will run 55-60 mph on a 45 size tunnel. This is for a limited 6 cell class that is growing locally with some other Deserters.
I still have enough nitro equipment to run races but they are now once a year events.
On a sidebar it is sad that motor options are in danger. Nova Rossi aside OS is a heartbeat away from becoming the next K&B. We had a pretty good motor maker here in the USA, Henry Nelson and he found it hard to stay in the outboard game selling 10 motors a year. A couple years ago having dinner with him he said to stay in production he would need to invest in a casting run of at least 50 cases. Just not worth it to him. The aircraft community kept him going longer than he wanted as he is tired and retired. I know Dub Jett has been approached and wants no part of marine engines.
Look at the average contestant age at a nitro race. Other than a few legacies nitro is dying a slow death (literally) as older guys like myself expire or become deserters. Yes there will always be nitro sniffing motorheads but the world will move forward. You can keep plugging holes in a sinking ship but I think investing in a good life raft might be a prudent option.
Mic

 

[Bill Gibson]

"Gas and FE have inherited a lot of old nitro racers.... I believe we have to slow down that desertion rate..."

I guess I qualify on all of the above. I tried Gas and it wasn't for me. So I became a "DESERTER" Hmmm $50 a gal fuel, $7 glow plugs and motors and pipes running close to the thousand dollar threshold. What's not to like? I campaigned for nitro limits 30 years ago to deaf ears.
Over the years I have promoted outboard races and supported classes driving miles to run and no one shows up. If you don't like FE fine, but it really works for me. My $80 motor has 2 bearings that rarely need replacing and $110 ESC will run 55-60 mph on a 45 size tunnel. This is for a limited 6 cell class that is growing locally with some other Deserters.
I still have enough nitro equipment to run races but they are now once a year events.
On a sidebar it is sad that motor options are in danger. Nova Rossi aside OS is a heartbeat away from becoming the next K&B. We had a pretty good motor maker here in the USA, Henry Nelson and he found it hard to stay in the outboard game selling 10 motors a year. A couple years ago having dinner with him he said to stay in production he would need to invest in a casting run of at least 50 cases. Just not worth it to him. The aircraft community kept him going longer than he wanted as he is tired and retired. I know Dub Jett has been approached and wants no part of marine engines.
Look at the average contestant age at a nitro race. Other than a few legacies nitro is dying a slow death (literally) as older guys like myself expire or become deserters. Yes there will always be nitro sniffing motorheads but the world will move forward. You can keep plugging holes in a sinking ship but I think investing in a good life raft might be a prudent option.
Mic

This is why as much as I will stubbornly will continue to run nitro boats until there are no more resources, im very glad that I got involved in FE......and the passion is the same as it is for nitro.......I simply wouldn't be involved in any of it, if it wasn't fun!

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Rod,

If I run across anyone who would be interested in your Dynamite/K&B combo, I will certainly pass your number along to them and if they build it and bring one to our pond we will do anything we can to help them.

I don't have your number so please provide your contact number and I will do what I can to help promote your cause just like I have done in the past for Mark Poole's Mod VP specialty class. I drew up all the diagrams for him just as he wanted and created a specialty class rule book in PDF and I don't even run that class. I have said from the start I support your idea and regardless of our obvious differences in opinions I am willing to help.

-Carl

 

[Geraghty]

Carl,
I don't have the adapters.....Fred Howe at lawless has them......That is strictly Freds deal .... he determines the price and supplies the adapter....
All I did was design and test and Fred was nice enough to build and make them available for anybody who might want one.....
1-607-687-0143
If somebody has questions about the adapter I would be happy to talk to them and help them in anyway I can.....
1-715-926-6096 landline ........... 1-715-495-5025 cell
Thanks Rod

I edited this post just to add some pertinent information for all interested RC boaters to consider....
If in fact any of you decide to try the adapter and use one of the 20+ car motors available...the car motor adapter will mount to any outboard [leg] currently available except Thunder Tiger [which has been discontinued by TT].....That would include the K&B , O.S. & the injection molded REK unit of years ago......

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Thanks!

 

[Grimracer]

I have/had a tendency to live in the past.. I sold K+B motors for 119 bucks back in the day (oh around 1988 or so).. then in steps a "born again Rocketeer!" as they say.. I remember taking all my mowing money (13 or 14 years old) and buying 3 engines for around a buck... I stopped flying rockets around the time i left Hobby Master.. (1997).. 3.69 a pack.. (man.. starting to get pricy!)

Then.. lets go forward to 2007 or so.. I hark back to my younger days and decide to start flying rockets again.. A pack of engines 7to9 bucks.. three packs for the price of a gallon of fuel.. It takes me an hour or two to burn though those engines..

I was like.. this is nasty expensive.. then I commented to a new rocketeer.. man these engines are expensive.. he said.. what the hell are you talking about.. its cheap.. my son and I can spend an afternoon flying rockets for about 30 bucks.. It was EYE opening to me.. When it came to pricing my brain had "left the building".. I was still in my youth.. if you ask a boater if they would rather pay 25 dollars for a gallon of fuel or 40.. what do you think you are going to hear..

Cost IS NOT THE ISSUE.. not to me.. I have an opinion on what IS the issue and have mentioned it before.. Lets just say its not "phony" lets "call" it out for what it is.. I bet you have gotten the "message"....

A new racer who sees this as "super cool and fun" maybe has a bass boat and has raced motocross at some point in his life is not going to give ONE CRAP about a 500 dollar motor.. and.. lets face it.. your not going to draw somebody (typically) that does not think or has not been exposed to some kind of fun motor driven something...

Rod G (boats)
Bob K (boats)
Carl V (boats)
Gabe C (drag bikes)
Dick T (Control line planes)
Big B (Sport Bikes)
Ron Jr (1/2A pylon racing)
I could go on and on.....


gang, we are in direct competition with cell phones.. EVERYTHING about them.. our attention, games, FB, stealing time, foodies, instant information, instant gratification.. .... WE....we use them for boating.. those that "dont know boating" are using them for EVERYTHING else.. Think we have all seen just about EVERY kind of useless video.. to MOST that useless video on there phone was some guy saying.. look at this toy boat go 200mph.. WOW.. did you see that blond of tic-toc...

if.. if.. its easier.. like gas boats and FE (and I dare say that).. then people will gravitate that way.. (its always been that way).. heck.. Outboards are easer to maintain then inboards.. (to me).. and that's one of the reasons I like them.

We as a group are not going to change any of this.. the best we can do is "take a piece of the pie, foster a new guy, get them in some fast heats to help them learn, talk to them about there goals, encourage them... shake a few hands.. make them feel welcome.. go out of your way.. (I know we do a nice job of this... i am just yakking)


Grim

 

[RonShaw]

Spot on Grim. We have a lot of competition with social media for sure but those that love nitro boats, (sport or racing), will find a way to enjoy the hobby they love.

 

[Danny King]

I have/had a tendency to live in the past.. I sold K+B motors for 119 bucks back in the day (oh around 1988 or so).. then in steps a "born again Rocketeer!" as they say.. I remember taking all my mowing money (13 or 14 years old) and buying 3 engines for around a buck... I stopped flying rockets around the time i left Hobby Master.. (1997).. 3.69 a pack.. (man.. starting to get pricy!)

Then.. lets go forward to 2007 or so.. I hark back to my younger days and decide to start flying rockets again.. A pack of engines 7to9 bucks.. three packs for the price of a gallon of fuel.. It takes me an hour or two to burn though those engines..

I was like.. this is nasty expensive.. then I commented to a new rocketeer.. man these engines are expensive.. he said.. what the hell are you talking about.. its cheap.. my son and I can spend an afternoon flying rockets for about 30 bucks.. It was EYE opening to me.. When it came to pricing my brain had "left the building".. I was still in my youth.. if you ask a boater if they would rather pay 25 dollars for a gallon of fuel or 40.. what do you think you are going to hear..

Cost IS NOT THE ISSUE.. not to me.. I have an opinion on what IS the issue and have mentioned it before.. Lets just say its not "phony" lets "call" it out for what it is.. I bet you have gotten the "message"....

A new racer who sees this as "super cool and fun" maybe has a bass boat and has raced motocross at some point in his life is not going to give ONE CRAP about a 500 dollar motor.. and.. lets face it.. your not going to draw somebody (typically) that does not think or has not been exposed to some kind of fun motor driven something...

Rod G (boats)
Bob K (boats)
Carl V (boats)
Gabe C (drag bikes)
Dick T (Control line planes)
Big B (Sport Bikes)
Ron Jr (1/2A pylon racing)
I could go on and on.....


gang, we are in direct competition with cell phones.. EVERYTHING about them.. our attention, games, FB, stealing time, foodies, instant information, instant gratification.. .... WE....we use them for boating.. those that "dont know boating" are using them for EVERYTHING else.. Think we have all seen just about EVERY kind of useless video.. to MOST that useless video on there phone was some guy saying.. look at this toy boat go 200mph.. WOW.. did you see that blond of tic-toc...

if.. if.. its easier.. like gas boats and FE (and I dare say that).. then people will gravitate that way.. (its always been that way).. heck.. Outboards are easer to maintain then inboards.. (to me).. and that's one of the reasons I like them.

We as a group are not going to change any of this.. the best we can do is "take a piece of the pie, foster a new guy, get them in some fast heats to help them learn, talk to them about there goals, encourage them... shake a few hands.. make them feel welcome.. go out of your way.. (I know we do a nice job of this... i am just yakking)


Grim

I work in a lot of houses. And know many families for years. Very few kids play sports or are activite. They play on the phone and video games. There is no consequence on the video game and they can quit anytime.
Thus turning them into adults with zero fabrication skills or any understanding how things work. And many barely work. So trying to find able people into a hobby is very difficult anymore. There just aren’t as many able people anymore.
sure costs have gone up and so has pay. It would surely help if races weren’t so crowded with classes that a guy with 1 boat has to spend 20 hours at a Lake just to run 4 times. Even if he had 2
Boats thats 8 runs in 2
Full days plus the day before. And cost him $300-$400 to travel To it.
the lack of local club races hurts. That was where newbies could catch on. A chance to cheaply and on the down low, figure out if they wanted to put the money and
Effort I lnto it. That is where beginner classes shine.
Gas boaters started stock mono and guess what. Many of the seasoned racers built them and it’s a big class now. But not with newbies.
People are more stingy with their time now. And this hobby requires time if you want to compete. And it costs money.
And we are stuck in the dinosaur ages with our racing....
I run at a predominately gas lake. A great group of boaters that will help as long as you’ll listen. If it weren’t for them i would have left the hobby again 5 ish years ago. I just needed somewhere fun to run and that was it. There are not a lot of those places around.
I live in a area where 60 miles to the south and 50 miles to the north And 12 miles wide is home to 9 million people. And there are 12
Guys running boats on Sunday mornings. Lol

 

[gooycheese]

Anything positive is a good thing... All negative needs to be checked at the door. In my case I brought a rtr to a race to talk with Gary preusse about what I could do to go faster. At the race I saw big Bryon and Mike z racing b hydros.... I was hooked. I don't have top dollar boats, and only bought 2 - .12 engines and a .45 new... Everything else is used. Most of my boat where cut out with a razor knife cuz I can't afford the top dollar boats.... We need to bring new people to races, if not to race just to watch. If you got the itch you will play. And fe, gas or nitro it don't matter what the boat is ... Ya got start someplace... I was always told see what they race in your area... And try to race those types of boats... I'm not a good writer... Just my thoughts


I do have some of the best people around in this hobby to help me... And everywhere I have traveled I for the most part meet awesome new people... If we all just brought so new people into are circles we would get bigger and bigger

 

[Ken Retallick]

Nitro isnt dead, or will be for a very long time!

I will be releasing my KRE 90 for general sale in the near future. Its taken me 10+ years to get this far. Not stopping now!
To make it worthwhile, i have had to save and purchase my own machine tools, them learn how to use them.
I do everything in house, Everything!! bar the heat treatment.

In the last 12 months i have added a real CNC Lathe and CNC Mill to increase production. Before this it was all done on manual machines. Once i have a handle on them and the programming there will be engines available.

In the future i will be producing other capacities also. .45 possibly first.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Ken,

That is great news! We look forward to your engines! I have heard that you care a lot about quality and I am sure that your engines will be very nice. Any pictures available yet?

-Carl

 

[Grimracer]

One piece of advice I received MANY years ago after Steve (my friend and owner of the Hobby Master) passed.. This customer was a great guy....... and.. (you have NO IDEA the money this man has made, I will not mention names, lets call him.. Jim..).. a good customer.. anyway..

OK.. One story.. we were flying control line planes at his property.. one of the other guys there was an ER doctor.. one of the older guys flying (his dad) cut his finger on a prop.. the ER dr was like.. he needs stitches.. true story.. Jim fires up his MD500 (the sister ship to the machine Barbra Mandrel and her Husband owned at the time).. and few him to the Heli pad at the hospital.. LOL.. Doc stitched him up and they few back.. guys.. we were 2 miles from the hospital...LOL

Anyway.. good times...

I was mentioning to him I needed new customers.. he said..

"A new customer is ONLY a new customer ONE TIME"

What he was really saying was this.. IT TAKES EFFORT and MONEY to add new customers. He was suggesting concentrating on current customers is important too. (very much part of Rods Post saying, boaters are moving away from Nitro)

BALLANCE is needed.. support is needed (I.E. the Ron Shaws, Stu Barrs, the Gabe Cleggs and the Jerry Crouthers... international waters.. on and on..).. good intentions are NEEDED... It looks like we have a bunch of that..

Positive posts are needed... you need support (nitro support!).. THIS IS THE PLACE!.. we can help. ANYBODY exploring this and falls here.. needs to feel and know this.


For me.. I race Nitro boats.. I personally don't have any intentions of racing FE or gas.. its just not for me.. ITS OK.... I AM OK WITH THAT... I am OK with other people having opinions on that too... ITS OK....

Grim

 

[Bill Gibson]

Nitro isnt dead, or will be for a very long time!

I will be releasing my KRE 90 for general sale in the near future. Its taken me 10+ years to get this far. Not stopping now!
To make it worthwhile, i have had to save and purchase my own machine tools, them learn how to use them.
I do everything in house, Everything!! bar the heat treatment.

In the last 12 months i have added a real CNC Lathe and CNC Mill to increase production. Before this it was all done on manual machines. Once i have a handle on them and the programming there will be engines available.

In the future i will be producing other capacities also. .45 possibly first.

FANTASTIC! You will have a customer here! Hope a .21 might be in the future as well!

 

[anders-e]

Ken
I´m looking forward to the release of the 45 engine

 

[Kris Flynn]

Nitro isnt dead, or will be for a very long time!

I will be releasing my KRE 90 for general sale in the near future. Its taken me 10+ years to get this far. Not stopping now!
To make it worthwhile, i have had to save and purchase my own machine tools, them learn how to use them.
I do everything in house, Everything!! bar the heat treatment.

In the last 12 months i have added a real CNC Lathe and CNC Mill to increase production. Before this it was all done on manual machines. Once i have a handle on them and the programming there will be engines available.

In the future i will be producing other capacities also. .45 possibly first.

Sounds like you might need to start employing people to help get these wicked projects done! Haha