Single F hydros/Twin F Hydros

[Don Ferrette]

Doc- for now you need to lobby clubs holding the bigger races you typically attend to offer a single engine F class like Charleston has done and see how it goes. If and I do mean IF the boat counts are there strong and consistent throughout the season THEN we can talk more about it being considered as a class. All this chatter is based on pure speculation and nothing more, show us the boat counts and PROVE it's merit! We went down this road before with sport 20, listened to all the chatter how it was going to be as big or bigger than sport 40, rules got written, the class was pushed through and what happened? It was a major flop with only spotty support throughout the organization at best, we don't need to go down that road again. And for what it's worth I've got a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet so I personally have no problem with running a single engine F class but we must do what's best for the organization and the membership as a whole. So like I said let's see the strong and consistent numbers race after race and then we'll go from there, this will be the ONLY way I will support it from an IMPBA board member level.

 

[dwilfong]

There is a full class 12 boats at the winter Nat's and there would be more if the registrations would have bin put in sooner.

SOOO it looks like there is a lot of interest in this class to the dismay of some.

It is not the so called lets see how it works out thing it's the stop bashing a good thing more or less.I did not see any one bashing the proposal for the max cid raised when our district pushed it thew so the 1.01 twins could run in X hydro class.

So please stop bashing this proposal.

David

 

[Don Ferrette]

There is a full class 12 boats at the winter Nat's and there would be more if the registrations would have bin put in sooner.

SOOO it looks like there is a lot of interest in this class to the dismay of some.

It is not the so called lets see how it works out thing it's the stop bashing a good thing more or less.I did not see any one bashing the proposal for the max cid raised when our district pushed it thew so the 1.01 twins could run in X hydro class.

So please stop bashing this proposal.

David

David, it's simple- proving it's worth needs to be for a full season, until that happens it's all chatter and people's opinions and nothing more. Not a IMPBA race here or a NAMBA race there. We need to see the numbers ALL SEASON long to PROVE it has merit and justifies itself! Both the IMPBA and NAMBA have too many classes now so before we add another one single F or X hydro needs to show it's worth and so far it's a couple members from each org. standing on their soapbox. I guess you missed the part that I have a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet and I will run it at the races that offer single engine F hydro (I had entered the single class @ Charleston but couldn't get it ready in time). I personally do not have a problem with a class for singles (I did have a problem with Doc originally posting to change the current F hydro rules) but I am one person in an organization with many members who also have a voice. What a couple of you either fail to realize or are simply choosing to overlook is both organizations are obligated to do what is good for and benefits the membership as a whole, not a few people getting pissy because they don't like running in rough water which is how many are seeing it currently. So again do it RIGHT and PROVE it to the boards and the membership so it merits it's official creation. If it proves itself out that we should do this I will absolutely support it, heck I'll even write the **** proposal for the IMPBA but the bottom line is show the numbers all season so we can easily justify making it happen. Until that occurs it's all just opinion and speculation no matter how tall your soapbox is or how many posts you make about it. So let's get the boats OUT ON THE WATER and PROVE IT!

 

[BigChuck]

AMEN..........REV DON!!!! B)

I for One( already with a boat for this class) have no issue with the class. But to say that we need a class BECAUSE is NOT merit enough.

I built my boat knowing what the rules were (F Hydro) and planned to run it according to those rules...........simple. Could care less if there is a specific class or not. I will eneter it beacuse it allows more run time.

Doc...........Theory?? No, but I and few others can see............Clearly!!! Support the class you will, get the Clubs to offer the class. I will even see if the "Terminator" will drive the UFO so you have some added competition. Just remember "You asked for this class!!"

 

[Joe Warren]

Just save a Good Picco 80 for the UFO hydro, That will handle Doc`s F hydro

 

[dwilfong]

There is a full class 12 boats at the winter Nat's and there would be more if the registrations would have bin put in sooner.

SOOO it looks like there is a lot of interest in this class to the dismay of some.

It is not the so called lets see how it works out thing it's the stop bashing a good thing more or less.I did not see any one bashing the proposal for the max cid raised when our district pushed it thew so the 1.01 twins could run in X hydro class.

So please stop bashing this proposal.

David

David, it's simple- proving it's worth needs to be for a full season, until that happens it's all chatter and people's opinions and nothing more. Not a IMPBA race here or a NAMBA race there. We need to see the numbers ALL SEASON long to PROVE it has merit and justifies itself! Both the IMPBA and NAMBA have too many classes now so before we add another one single F or X hydro needs to show it's worth and so far it's a couple members from each org. standing on their soapbox. I guess you missed the part that I have a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet and I will run it at the races that offer single engine F hydro (I had entered the single class @ Charleston but couldn't get it ready in time). I personally do not have a problem with a class for singles (I did have a problem with Doc originally posting to change the current F hydro rules) but I am one person in an organization with many members who also have a voice. What a couple of you either fail to realize or are simply choosing to overlook is both organizations are obligated to do what is good for and benefits the membership as a whole, not a few people getting pissy because they don't like running in rough water which is how many are seeing it currently. So again do it RIGHT and PROVE it to the boards and the membership so it merits it's official creation. If it proves itself out that we should do this I will absolutely support it, heck I'll even write the **** proposal for the IMPBA but the bottom line is show the numbers all season so we can easily justify making it happen. Until that occurs it's all just opinion and speculation no matter how tall your soapbox is or how many posts you make about it. So let's get the boats OUT ON THE WATER and PROVE IT!

Same old political BS.

David

 

[dr gary turner]

There is a full class 12 boats at the winter Nat's and there would be more if the registrations would have bin put in sooner. SOOO it looks like there is a lot of interest in this class to the dismay of some. It is not the so called lets see how it works out thing it's the stop bashing a good thing more or less.I did not see any one bashing the proposal for the max cid raised when our district pushed it thew so the 1.01 twins could run in X hydro class. So please stop bashing this proposal. David

David, it's simple- proving it's worth needs to be for a full season, until that happens it's all chatter and people's opinions and nothing more. Not a IMPBA race here or a NAMBA race there. We need to see the numbers ALL SEASON long to PROVE it has merit and justifies itself! Both the IMPBA and NAMBA have too many classes now so before we add another one single F or X hydro needs to show it's worth and so far it's a couple members from each org. standing on their soapbox. I guess you missed the part that I have a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet and I will run it at the races that offer single engine F hydro (I had entered the single class @ Charleston but couldn't get it ready in time). I personally do not have a problem with a class for singles (I did have a problem with Doc originally posting to change the current F hydro rules) but I am one person in an organization with many members who also have a voice. What a couple of you either fail to realize or are simply choosing to overlook is both organizations are obligated to do what is good for and benefits the membership as a whole, not a few people getting pissy because they don't like running in rough water which is how many are seeing it currently. So again do it RIGHT and PROVE it to the boards and the membership so it merits it's official creation. If it proves itself out that we should do this I will absolutely support it, heck I'll even write the **** proposal for the IMPBA but the bottom line is show the numbers all season so we can easily justify making it happen. Until that occurs it's all just opinion and speculation no matter how tall your soapbox is or how many posts you make about it. So let's get the boats OUT ON THE WATER and PROVE IT!

I am glad to being to see the positive enthusiasm for the FX class. Already many of the contributors to this posting are getting the dust off of their F-hydros. The number reported to be racing in Fl is incredible given the short notice. DON don't use the negative of Sport 21 to impede the this class. Single F hydros have been present for at least 25-30yrs when Rossi came out with their 80 and OPS their 80 and square 90. So it is not a new class or concept, It is purely a REFINEMENT of an existing group of boats. In this case "IF YOU BUILD IT TI WILL COME" ie FL and Charleston. BTW what did it cost IMPBA or for that matter yourself that sport 21 did not succeed?` This class already is a success. It will be great to see you Joe Chuck Stu and many others compete in the class. I may just watch because it will be great racing. I may need to save my energy for the twin class especially in ones senior years.

 

[John Knight]

There is a full class 12 boats at the winter Nat's and there would be more if the registrations would have bin put in sooner.

SOOO it looks like there is a lot of interest in this class to the dismay of some.

It is not the so called lets see how it works out thing it's the stop bashing a good thing more or less.I did not see any one bashing the proposal for the max cid raised when our district pushed it thew so the 1.01 twins could run in X hydro class.

So please stop bashing this proposal.

David

David, it's simple- proving it's worth needs to be for a full season, until that happens it's all chatter and people's opinions and nothing more. Not a IMPBA race here or a NAMBA race there. We need to see the numbers ALL SEASON long to PROVE it has merit and justifies itself! Both the IMPBA and NAMBA have too many classes now so before we add another one single F or X hydro needs to show it's worth and so far it's a couple members from each org. standing on their soapbox. I guess you missed the part that I have a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet and I will run it at the races that offer single engine F hydro (I had entered the single class @ Charleston but couldn't get it ready in time). I personally do not have a problem with a class for singles (I did have a problem with Doc originally posting to change the current F hydro rules) but I am one person in an organization with many members who also have a voice. What a couple of you either fail to realize or are simply choosing to overlook is both organizations are obligated to do what is good for and benefits the membership as a whole, not a few people getting pissy because they don't like running in rough water which is how many are seeing it currently. So again do it RIGHT and PROVE it to the boards and the membership so it merits it's official creation. If it proves itself out that we should do this I will absolutely support it, heck I'll even write the **** proposal for the IMPBA but the bottom line is show the numbers all season so we can easily justify making it happen. Until that occurs it's all just opinion and speculation no matter how tall your soapbox is or how many posts you make about it. So let's get the boats OUT ON THE WATER and PROVE IT!

Same old political BS.

David

David,

This is anything but the same old political BS. It is just the way it is for a new class to be considered. It must prove, over time, generally a year's worth of racing, that there is sufficient interest for the class. And it cannot be just a few choice races either. It must be general support across the spectrum too at a significant number of races. Suggest that a method be created to garner that support to help the class along rather than throwing darts. While that is happening, any club can offer the class as a specialty class to get it going. And that could be done for several years if necessary. The seeds have been planted just needs some good nuturing, with some patience along the way. It is a marathon and not a sprint race.

John

 

[dwilfong]

There is a full class 12 boats at the winter Nat's and there would be more if the registrations would have bin put in sooner.

SOOO it looks like there is a lot of interest in this class to the dismay of some.

It is not the so called lets see how it works out thing it's the stop bashing a good thing more or less.I did not see any one bashing the proposal for the max cid raised when our district pushed it thew so the 1.01 twins could run in X hydro class.

So please stop bashing this proposal.

David

David, it's simple- proving it's worth needs to be for a full season, until that happens it's all chatter and people's opinions and nothing more. Not a IMPBA race here or a NAMBA race there. We need to see the numbers ALL SEASON long to PROVE it has merit and justifies itself! Both the IMPBA and NAMBA have too many classes now so before we add another one single F or X hydro needs to show it's worth and so far it's a couple members from each org. standing on their soapbox. I guess you missed the part that I have a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet and I will run it at the races that offer single engine F hydro (I had entered the single class @ Charleston but couldn't get it ready in time). I personally do not have a problem with a class for singles (I did have a problem with Doc originally posting to change the current F hydro rules) but I am one person in an organization with many members who also have a voice. What a couple of you either fail to realize or are simply choosing to overlook is both organizations are obligated to do what is good for and benefits the membership as a whole, not a few people getting pissy because they don't like running in rough water which is how many are seeing it currently. So again do it RIGHT and PROVE it to the boards and the membership so it merits it's official creation. If it proves itself out that we should do this I will absolutely support it, heck I'll even write the **** proposal for the IMPBA but the bottom line is show the numbers all season so we can easily justify making it happen. Until that occurs it's all just opinion and speculation no matter how tall your soapbox is or how many posts you make about it. So let's get the boats OUT ON THE WATER and PROVE IT!

Same old political BS.

David

David,

This is anything but the same old political BS. It is just the way it is for a new class to be considered. It must prove, over time, generally a year's worth of racing, that there is sufficient interest for the class. And it cannot be just a few choice races either. It must be general support across the spectrum too at a significant number of races. Suggest that a method be created to garner that support to help the class along rather than throwing darts. While that is happening, any club can offer the class as a specialty class to get it going. And that could be done for several years if necessary. The seeds have been planted just needs some good nuturing, with some patience along the way. It is a marathon and not a sprint race.

John

Sorry Don and John. Just let my feelings get the best of me.

I hope that this will come to be it would be a great class. Just do not understand the bashing of a good thing thats all.

I have said my peace. Now we will all have to see if this takes off.

So all the clubs out there give it a try it will bring the boats off the self and out from under the bed (Lupe) and to the lake.

David

 

[Joe Warren]

There is a full class 12 boats at the winter Nat's and there would be more if the registrations would have bin put in sooner. SOOO it looks like there is a lot of interest in this class to the dismay of some. It is not the so called lets see how it works out thing it's the stop bashing a good thing more or less.I did not see any one bashing the proposal for the max cid raised when our district pushed it thew so the 1.01 twins could run in X hydro class. So please stop bashing this proposal. David

David, it's simple- proving it's worth needs to be for a full season, until that happens it's all chatter and people's opinions and nothing more. Not a IMPBA race here or a NAMBA race there. We need to see the numbers ALL SEASON long to PROVE it has merit and justifies itself! Both the IMPBA and NAMBA have too many classes now so before we add another one single F or X hydro needs to show it's worth and so far it's a couple members from each org. standing on their soapbox. I guess you missed the part that I have a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet and I will run it at the races that offer single engine F hydro (I had entered the single class @ Charleston but couldn't get it ready in time). I personally do not have a problem with a class for singles (I did have a problem with Doc originally posting to change the current F hydro rules) but I am one person in an organization with many members who also have a voice. What a couple of you either fail to realize or are simply choosing to overlook is both organizations are obligated to do what is good for and benefits the membership as a whole, not a few people getting pissy because they don't like running in rough water which is how many are seeing it currently. So again do it RIGHT and PROVE it to the boards and the membership so it merits it's official creation. If it proves itself out that we should do this I will absolutely support it, heck I'll even write the **** proposal for the IMPBA but the bottom line is show the numbers all season so we can easily justify making it happen. Until that occurs it's all just opinion and speculation no matter how tall your soapbox is or how many posts you make about it. So let's get the boats OUT ON THE WATER and PROVE IT!

I am glad to being to see the positive enthusiasm for the FX class. Already many of the contributors to this posting are getting the dust off of their F-hydros. The number reported to be racing in Fl is incredible given the short notice. DON don't use the negative of Sport 21 to impede the this class. Single F hydros have been present for at least 25-30yrs when Rossi came out with their 80 and OPS their 80 and square 90. So it is not a new class or concept, It is purely a REFINEMENT of an existing group of boats. In this case "IF YOU BUILD IT TI WILL COME" ie FL and Charleston. BTW what did it cost IMPBA or for that matter yourself that sport 21 did not succeed?` This class already is a success. It will be great to see you Joe Chuck Stu and many others compete in the class. I may just watch because it will be great racing. I may need to save my energy for the twin class especially in ones senior years.

Doc lets not loose site of what has happened. Florida Has pushed the 91 Twins (FX CLASS Boats) into a class so they have to compete with the BIG BORE 101Twins & Made a Single Engine Only XF Hydro class............ If another class can be estabilished in IMPBA??? Great......... But for Now it at the cost of Orginal Format FX Hydro Class . Must be Some Guys Down there that think they cannot run with the 91 Twins???????? :lol: :lol:

 

[Mark Bullard]

There is a full class 12 boats at the winter Nat's and there would be more if the registrations would have bin put in sooner. SOOO it looks like there is a lot of interest in this class to the dismay of some. It is not the so called lets see how it works out thing it's the stop bashing a good thing more or less.I did not see any one bashing the proposal for the max cid raised when our district pushed it thew so the 1.01 twins could run in X hydro class. So please stop bashing this proposal. David

David, it's simple- proving it's worth needs to be for a full season, until that happens it's all chatter and people's opinions and nothing more. Not a IMPBA race here or a NAMBA race there. We need to see the numbers ALL SEASON long to PROVE it has merit and justifies itself! Both the IMPBA and NAMBA have too many classes now so before we add another one single F or X hydro needs to show it's worth and so far it's a couple members from each org. standing on their soapbox. I guess you missed the part that I have a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet and I will run it at the races that offer single engine F hydro (I had entered the single class @ Charleston but couldn't get it ready in time). I personally do not have a problem with a class for singles (I did have a problem with Doc originally posting to change the current F hydro rules) but I am one person in an organization with many members who also have a voice. What a couple of you either fail to realize or are simply choosing to overlook is both organizations are obligated to do what is good for and benefits the membership as a whole, not a few people getting pissy because they don't like running in rough water which is how many are seeing it currently. So again do it RIGHT and PROVE it to the boards and the membership so it merits it's official creation. If it proves itself out that we should do this I will absolutely support it, heck I'll even write the **** proposal for the IMPBA but the bottom line is show the numbers all season so we can easily justify making it happen. Until that occurs it's all just opinion and speculation no matter how tall your soapbox is or how many posts you make about it. So let's get the boats OUT ON THE WATER and PROVE IT!

I am glad to being to see the positive enthusiasm for the FX class. Already many of the contributors to this posting are getting the dust off of their F-hydros. The number reported to be racing in Fl is incredible given the short notice. DON don't use the negative of Sport 21 to impede the this class. Single F hydros have been present for at least 25-30yrs when Rossi came out with their 80 and OPS their 80 and square 90. So it is not a new class or concept, It is purely a REFINEMENT of an existing group of boats. In this case "IF YOU BUILD IT TI WILL COME" ie FL and Charleston. BTW what did it cost IMPBA or for that matter yourself that sport 21 did not succeed?` This class already is a success. It will be great to see you Joe Chuck Stu and many others compete in the class. I may just watch because it will be great racing. I may need to save my energy for the twin class especially in ones senior years.

Doc lets not loose site of what has happened. Florida Has pushed the 91 Twins (FX CLASS Boats) into a class so they have to compete with the BIG BORE 101Twins & Made a Single Engine Only XF Hydro class............ If another class can be estabilished in IMPBA??? Great......... But for Now it at the cost of Orginal Format FX Hydro Class . Must be Some Guys Down there that think they cannot run with the 91 Twins???????? :lol: :lol:

Read the IMPBA rules for the Multi-engine class.

Multi-Engine Hydro

​

1. The hull will be a hydro as defined on page K-6 of the Rule Book. Under the title of

​

Hydro Hull Definitions and Restrictions

​

2. The boat must have a minimum of 2 engines.

​

3. This will be a Nitro/Glow only class.

​

4. The boat must have each engine connected to a shaft/propeller or the boat may have a

​

minimum 1 shaft/propeller so long as all engines are connected and driving the 1

​

shaft/propeller or the boat can have multiple shafts/propellers so long as all

​

shafts/propellers are connected and driven by an engine or engines.

​

5. The minimum displacement for two or more engines will be 0.610 cu. in. or 10cc.

​

The maximum total displacement for two or more engines will be 1.830 cu. in. or

​

30cc.

The only problem is the max displacement has not been updated. It should read.

5. The minimum displacement for two or more engines will be 0.610 cu. in. or 10cc.

​

The maximum total displacement for two or more engines will be 2.500 cu. in. or

​

41cc.

 

[SayMikey]

Yup what he said

5. The minimum displacement for two or more engines will be 0.610 cu. in. or 10cc.

​

The maximum total displacement for two or more engines will be 2.500 cu. in. or

​

41cc.

 

[SayMikey]

Doc- for now you need to lobby clubs holding the bigger races you typically attend to offer a single engine F class like Charleston has done and see how it goes. If and I do mean IF the boat counts are there strong and consistent throughout the season THEN we can talk more about it being considered as a class. All this chatter is based on pure speculation and nothing more, show us the boat counts and PROVE it's merit! We went down this road before with sport 20, listened to all the chatter how it was going to be as big or bigger than sport 40, rules got written, the class was pushed through and what happened? It was a major flop with only spotty support throughout the organization at best, we don't need to go down that road again. And for what it's worth I've got a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet so I personally have no problem with running a single engine F class but we must do what's best for the organization and the membership as a whole. So like I said let's see the strong and consistent numbers race after race and then we'll go from there, this will be the ONLY way I will support it from an IMPBA board member level.

Without twins in f class our races would not make a f class Hence OPEN has become the norm

 

[dr gary turner]

Doc- for now you need to lobby clubs holding the bigger races you typically attend to offer a single engine F class like Charleston has done and see how it goes. If and I do mean IF the boat counts are there strong and consistent throughout the season THEN we can talk more about it being considered as a class. All this chatter is based on pure speculation and nothing more, show us the boat counts and PROVE it's merit! We went down this road before with sport 20, listened to all the chatter how it was going to be as big or bigger than sport 40, rules got written, the class was pushed through and what happened? It was a major flop with only spotty support throughout the organization at best, we don't need to go down that road again. And for what it's worth I've got a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet so I personally have no problem with running a single engine F class but we must do what's best for the organization and the membership as a whole. So like I said let's see the strong and consistent numbers race after race and then we'll go from there, this will be the ONLY way I will support it from an IMPBA board member level.

Without twins in f class our races would not make a f class Hence OPEN has become the norm

So Mike It may make more sense to have twin hydro, and single f-hydro. Charleston had 12 single f-hydros. Apparently 12 are entered in the winter Nats. By the time of your race many more will come out of the closet. You might consider offering both f-hydro and single f-hydro FX and if there are not enough FX combine them into f-hydro. If not enough f-hydro twins combine into one twin class. Let the entries sort themselves out by offering both to start with and let people know of the potential of combining . Doc

 

[julianconde]

thats not right doc combine them to one Twin class then there wont be a F Hydro thats exactly why it should stay the way it is.. my thoughts only

 

[Tim Kish]

Doc- for now you need to lobby clubs holding the bigger races you typically attend to offer a single engine F class like Charleston has done and see how it goes. If and I do mean IF the boat counts are there strong and consistent throughout the season THEN we can talk more about it being considered as a class. All this chatter is based on pure speculation and nothing more, show us the boat counts and PROVE it's merit! We went down this road before with sport 20, listened to all the chatter how it was going to be as big or bigger than sport 40, rules got written, the class was pushed through and what happened? It was a major flop with only spotty support throughout the organization at best, we don't need to go down that road again. And for what it's worth I've got a new big block single hanging on the wall waiting to get wet so I personally have no problem with running a single engine F class but we must do what's best for the organization and the membership as a whole. So like I said let's see the strong and consistent numbers race after race and then we'll go from there, this will be the ONLY way I will support it from an IMPBA board member level.

Without twins in f class our races would not make a f class Hence OPEN has become the norm

So Mike It may make more sense to have twin hydro, and single f-hydro. Charleston had 12 single f-hydros. Apparently 12 are entered in the winter Nats. By the time of your race many more will come out of the closet. You might consider offering both f-hydro and single f-hydro FX and if there are not enough FX combine them into f-hydro. If not enough f-hydro twins combine into one twin class. Let the entries sort themselves out by offering both to start with and let people know of the potential of combining . Doc

I am getting tired of racing classes with low boat counts and now because a class has really picked up in isolated areas we want to seperate them?

Almost makes me want to race a gas boat .............

Besides the twins may have an advantage in rougher water but the single have the advantage of attrition and that's a huge advantage.

Kinda equals the playing feild , No ?

Leave it up to the host club to decide , things are different throughout IMPBA.

Tim K

 

[dr gary turner]

thats not right doc combine them to one Twin class then there wont be a F Hydro thats exactly why it should stay the way it is.. my thoughts only

Julian, Maybe f-hydro class is not appropriate for the present ERA. It was in the past. The attrition as mentioned was in the 80's and 90's. The reliability of a twin has improved dramatically. I used to be able years ago to win a race with my twin using one motor because it was the only twin still running somewhat. . Did several times at SGRA race. Sometimes one just has to change to current trends. I think the FX single f- hydro is already back due to clubs offering it and will continue to grow. What is the disadvantage of combining the twins. F-hydro is just a name, not a some icon to be relished.

 

[julianconde]

Combining twins is not a problem at all. But you would in a race if there was not enough to make the class combining or what I call consolidating F hydro and twins that would not happen If everything is left as is.

That's my point. Yes f hydro is just a name and it's not the most prestigious class in the impba.

 

[Piston1]

Combining twins is not a problem at all. But you would in a race if there was not enough to make the class combining or what I call consolidating F hydro and twins that would not happen If everything is left as is.

That's my point. Yes f hydro is just a name and it's not the most prestigious class in the impba.

Julian, Jibaro. F hydro is one the most prestigious class in the circuitry. Way more prestigious than T hydro.

 

[julianconde]

Then what doc proposes to so if there not enough f hydros and combine them with twins is not right. According to doc f hydro is just that. I like the class and twin more than any other.