Phantom & Phantom II

[Chris Wood]

http://www.klasskote.com/

this is the only epoxy paint to use.. literally i don't think anyone else make anything.. works great shoots good

 

[JOEBISHOP]

Hey Thanks Chris! I just received a PM from Joel and he said the same thing so I will definitely try it. Joe

 

[Ray Sametz]

Ditto on the KlassKote.

Be sure to use their Reducer, not an off the shelf Lacquer thinner. A bit more expensive, but well worth it. OMHO...........

 

[Andy Brown]

Hey Guys

I am about finished with the ULTRA kit, PHANTOM II, A1/2A boat. Finish the rigging, paint and decals and it's finished. What I thought I would tell you guys is the weight of the boat with every thing piled in it, all in it's appropriate place. It weighs 2 lbs and 8 oz. Granted there is no paint on it yet but the way I intend to paint it, I really don't think it will pickup much more than a few more ounces. One of my goal was to keep it under 3 lbs and that is very much a possibility! Here is the kicker, the ELITE boat will be even lighter yet.

Lets touch on painting for a moment. I notice a lot of guys coat their boats with epoxy resin. Even manufacturers suggest doing it this way. They paint on one coat, sand it down and then apply another coat. After sanding they go to the paint process. Back in the day when I originally started producing Phantoms, I coated the inside of the boat with a thin coat of epoxy resin but the out side of the boat was not coated with resin. K&B used to sell a very good epoxy paint. I would prime the outside of the boat with epoxy primer, work it out to perfectly smooth then spray on a couple coats of K&B epoxy paint. My boats never got water under the paint! I never noticed wood grain raising due to water leakage. I am searching for a good epoxy paint to replace the K&B Epoxy as I don't believe they offer it anymore. I will again finish my boats in this manner as I think it is much lighter.

An example of the bare wood to epoxy paint is my Phantom 90 boat which is now 38 years old. The pictures below was taken about a month ago. Looks pretty darn good to be 38 years old. The black & white Photo is my original Phantom CE back when I was racing it. Later! Joe

" I would prime the outside of the boat with epoxy primer, work it out to perfectly smooth then spray on a couple coats of K&B epoxy paint."

I disagree with this method. I used the same exact method in the 70's and early 80's. But since about 1985 we used one or two coats of epoxy on the bare wood and then two coats of K&B or Klasscoat straight over the epoxy. Forget the epoxy Primer. It lays on the surface of the wood and does nothing to protect it. The epoxy will saturate into the wood an make a tough wood grain/epoxy composite surface that will not peel. I have seen Primer peel right off the wood surface.

For a few years we used one coat of clear Imron on the bare wood followed by two coats of Imron color. This was by far the most durable finish we ever used. There are probably still a few Mongooses around with that finish on them. It was a Killer finish, but the Imron almost killed me, literally.

 

[JeffEvans]

Hi I would have to agree with Andy Brown on the refinish of boats. I am 54 years old now and have been painting since the age of 14. Cars, busses, airplanes, trucks, boats and everything in between. Not trying to hijack this thread

But the use of primer... be it epoxy or urethane has an inert ingredient of talc used as a filler... even primer reduced has a tendency to lay on the wood. Fiberglass refinish is one thing but wood requires a different approach.

With that being said I haven't tried KlassKote but I can tell you that using clear to seal the wood is a best bet.

I ALSO AGREE THAT IMRON IS A KILLER...PERIOD and would advise anyone that is considering painting his/her boat to consider the hazards of the material. Most modern urethanes contain polyisocyanate ( one killer ingredient in Imron ) and you would well advised to wear a respirator, even at that you are unprotected. The product is absorbed through the skin, eyes etc.

I am telling you this because as of recent I've had various health problems that I am convinced are the direct cause of all the years of painting.

SO if you are going to do it yourself please read the labels and be safe

Jeff

 

[JOEBISHOP]

Ditto on the KlassKote.

Be sure to use their Reducer, not an off the shelf Lacquer thinner. A bit more expensive, but well worth it. OMHO...........

Good advise Ray, I will do that. Thanks! Joe

 

[JOEBISHOP]

Hey Andy, I know what you are saying about painting over bare wood and I understand what Jeff is saying about fillers (talc) in the primer. I know the absorption rate is not as good as epoxy resin or polyester resin for that matter. By the way guys, don't use polyester resin (commonly called fiberglass resin). The crap is hard to sand and the smell will run off all of your neighbors, LOL!

My experience with painting K&B paint and primer only was very good. I did all my boats that way years ago but I think I will take you guys advice and do the epoxy resin method. Here is what I am going to do, I will first weigh all the wood parts before doing the resin and sanding. Then after I am finished, before adding paint, I will weigh the same parts again and we will see how much weight the boat will pickup using this process. Sounds like a good experiment to me! Thanks Guys! Joe

By the way, to further what Andy and Jeff said about automotive paints, if the paint requires adding a harder, DO NOT USE IT! One of the big problems with automotive hardened paints is the crap will get in your lungs, harden and never come out not to mention the bad chemicals that can be absorbed through your skin. Why do you think automotive companies have spent millions on robots to paint cars. When humans do touch up spraying, they are working in a state of the art, down draft paint booth with space suits on and independent air source masks. Absolutely no part of their bodies is exposed to the paint spray or vapor. If that don't scare you away from using it, do so at a great risk to yourself and other members of your family.

 

[Ray Sametz]

Hey Guys

I am about finished with the ULTRA kit, PHANTOM II, A1/2A boat. Finish the rigging, paint and decals and it's finished. What I thought I would tell you guys is the weight of the boat with every thing piled in it, all in it's appropriate place. It weighs 2 lbs and 8 oz. Granted there is no paint on it yet but the way I intend to paint it, I really don't think it will pickup much more than a few more ounces. One of my goal was to keep it under 3 lbs and that is very much a possibility! Here is the kicker, the ELITE boat will be even lighter yet.

Lets touch on painting for a moment. I notice a lot of guys coat their boats with epoxy resin. Even manufacturers suggest doing it this way. They paint on one coat, sand it down and then apply another coat. After sanding they go to the paint process. Back in the day when I originally started producing Phantoms, I coated the inside of the boat with a thin coat of epoxy resin but the out side of the boat was not coated with resin. K&B used to sell a very good epoxy paint. I would prime the outside of the boat with epoxy primer, work it out to perfectly smooth then spray on a couple coats of K&B epoxy paint. My boats never got water under the paint! I never noticed wood grain raising due to water leakage. I am searching for a good epoxy paint to replace the K&B Epoxy as I don't believe they offer it anymore. I will again finish my boats in this manner as I think it is much lighter.

An example of the bare wood to epoxy paint is my Phantom 90 boat which is now 38 years old. The pictures below was taken about a month ago. Looks pretty darn good to be 38 years old. The black & white Photo is my original Phantom CE back when I was racing it. Later! Joe

" I would prime the outside of the boat with epoxy primer, work it out to perfectly smooth then spray on a couple coats of K&B epoxy paint."

I disagree with this method. I used the same exact method in the 70's and early 80's. But since about 1985 we used one or two coats of epoxy on the bare wood and then two coats of K&B or Klasscoat straight over the epoxy. Forget the epoxy Primer. It lays on the surface of the wood and does nothing to protect it. The epoxy will saturate into the wood an make a tough wood grain/epoxy composite surface that will not peel. I have seen Primer peel right off the wood surface.

For a few years we used one coat of clear Imron on the bare wood followed by two coats of Imron color. This was by far the most durable finish we ever used. There are probably still a few Mongooses around with that finish on them. It was a Killer finish, but the Imron almost killed me, literally.

One of my favorite boats, an Imron Mongoose.

 

[JOEBISHOP]

Looks great Ray, I just wouldn't want to be the guy that shot the paint. Hey Guys, if you want an automotive finish on your boat, go to a body shop that is known for their paint finishes and get them to shoot it for you. A reputable body shop usually has a good paint booth and knows how to protect themselves from the dangers of using the products. The only thing is get ready for the price because it will be steep. Joe

 

[JeffEvans]

Hi Ray the boat does look great!

Joe not to chime in again but I need to clarify some items, the talc used in primer also helps the ease of sanding as well as filling minor defects.

Ok here goes... the term "automotive finishes" doesn't necessarily apply here. Some of the products discussed are designed for industrial use, fleet use and or hobby use. The problem is they are not necessarily labeled with all the dangers involved because of it's intended use. As in hobby uses the manufacturer thinks "this is for an occasional user" but we will disclose the worst of the dangers.

Epoxy has a part A and a part B as we all know. One is the resin the other ( depending on manufacturer ) catalyst, activator or hardener. It has similar chemicals and is just as detrimental to health.

Also Imron in the early years was intended for fleet use for example, trucks, airplanes etc. It crossed over into the automotive industry because of it's durability and chemical resistance. We were never informed of just how bad the product really was to our health.

I work in a body shop so as far as protective gear...state of the art equipment....let just say it's adequate. As far as steep price, consider the labor involved, the health hazard, shop overhead and expenses, insurance....I wouldn't call it "steep" just fair...... considering expenses.

Sorry Joe... I mean no disrespect to you at all and will leave your thread alone. You are well known for your innovative rigger design and contributions to the hobby.

You have touched on something dear to my heart and I don't want the occasional painter or his friends, family and neighbors exposed to what I've been exposed to and start having health issues. As a side note there are some states considering legislation to limit what type of paints and supplies can be sold retail.

If you guys wish I'll start a thread on refinish and try to help out my fellow boaters

Jeff

 

[JOEBISHOP]

Hi Jeff

Great reply! It is obvious you know your stuff. I used the term "automotive finishes" as a reference to the novice painter because you purchase these finishes at an automotive paint store, or that is where you find them here in Oklahoma. The law here is that they are for professional use only and not to be sold to the general public but no one enforces the law. As for epoxy, you are exactly right! The stuff is very toxic but the difference is you usually brush on epoxy instead of making it into an aerosol. I never use epoxy in quantity without a fan blowing the fumes away. Some guys think because epoxy doesn't have a strong odor that it must be safe, WRONG!

I have done quite a bit of paint designs and painting over the years. I have won the Darrell Starboard Rod and Custom Show twice. Both times with competition race cars. I posted below a photo of one of my cars that I built and painted. I named it the Half bread because it was a Ford Probe with a Chevy engine, LOL!

What you said about starting a forum on "how to finish and paint your boat", I think is a great idea! I would definitely keep up with it. Later! Joe

 

[JeffEvans]

Hi Joe,

Sweet! Very sweet ride! You obviously know your stuff also.

Also I failed to mention weighing the boat through the process would be an interesting idea to say the least. Keep us informed. Will you recheck your balance after the refinish is complete?

I've only chimed in because I've seen build photos on here with spray guns involved and ready heaters in the background (not on your thread of course ) infra red heat lamps Ok but a ready heater??

Good luck with the new rigger design!

Jeff

 

[Don Ferrette]

By the way, to further what Andy and Jeff said about automotive paints, if the paint requires adding a harder, DO NOT USE IT! One of the big problems with automotive hardened paints is the crap will get in your lungs, harden and never come out not to mention the bad chemicals that can be absorbed through your skin. Why do you think automotive companies have spent millions on robots to paint cars. When humans do touch up spraying, they are working in a state of the art, down draft paint booth with space suits on and independent air source masks. Absolutely no part of their bodies is exposed to the paint spray or vapor. If that don't scare you away from using it, do so at a great risk to yourself and other members of your family.

Ok time to chime in here. First Andy is right about primer over wood without sealing with epoxy first, don't do it. You gain significant structural strength from the epoxy wicking into the wood as well as a base the the primer can chemically bond to (as long as it's properly prepped). As for paints with hardeners, if you want something durable and fuel proof that is what you will need to shoot. I fully understand the issues career auto painters have experienced and also how car manufacturers use robots now but we are talking about painting a model boat not a fleet of Cadillacs. Also keep in mind you might be painting maybe what a few boats a year, not constant exposure day in and day out as if you were doing it for a paycheck. YES proper protection is VERY important starting with a high quality PROPERLY FITTING 2 stage respirator mask as well as gloves and full length clothing BUT things are very different now with the hi volume low pressure spray guns. In the past the high pressure guns sent most of the product airborne, only 30-35% actually provided coverage. Not only was there a high amount of product waste but the particulate that became airborne became an evironmental concern which drew the EPAs attention and new rules were mandated in that regard which brought us the current HVLP technology. Now with the modern HVLP guns typically 80% winds up on the object being painted and what doesn't has far less velocity and tends to stay lower to the floor. With proper ventilation the new urethanes and epoxy paints can be safely applied even in home shops. Using a Sata minijet HVLP detail gun I can lay down two coats of PPG acrylic urethane on a twin tub using about 3oz. of paint, something unheard of with the old hi pressure guns. As with anything proper protection goes a long way in many aspects of our hobby and honestly I consider working on props far more dangerous than painting as far as the toxicity of what you come in contact with, the beryllium in the props is wickedly dangerous and the dust created from working them can absorb into your skin even easier than paint fumes.

I'll also appologize in advance for sidetracking this thread but I felt the need to reply to some of the over the top responses regarding painting.

 

[JeffEvans]

Hi Don

Thanks for the response. If I went over the top, then I apologize. Your response is 100% correct from the beginning all the way to the props. Technology has come a long way in paint application.

1 or 2 boats a year shouldn't be a problem just protect yourself.

sorry for the sidetrack

Best of luck Joe

 

[JOEBISHOP]

OK Guys, I am sure everyone has his own definitions and opinions. I may exaggerate somewhat about the dangers of activator or hardener type paints but I do it from personal experiences. I have a friend that is a meticulous model airplane builder. He decided to paint one of his airplanes with Emron. He used all the normal precautions, respirator, good ventilation, covering all his skin, suction fan, etc. After he was through he started feeling anything but right. Long story short, he experienced a neurological reaction to the chemicals in the paint and for a long time had quite a time just trying to sign his name. He, for the most part, recovered. He had never shot this type of paint before. So what I am saying, even if you are not a professional painter, you may be the type that reacts adversely to these chemicals even after the first exposure. Even though I did exaggerate the dangers, my intention is to warn modelers to be very careful with these products. I will retract the wordage "DO NOT USE" and replace it with "PROCEED WITH APPROPRIATE CAUTION". Thanks Don for raining this subject in! Just a note: you could try Top Flite Luster Kote. It is a fuel proof raddle can paint that I have had a lot of success with on my R/C airplanes.

WOW! I am going to have to curtail some of my opinions, they sometimes start a fire storm,LOL!

So much for paint! I hope tomorrow I will be able to post pictures of the completed construction of the ULTRA kit, PHANTOM II A1/2A boat (.12 boat). No paint but the wood completed. Shortly there after post pictures of the ELITE ,12 boat. Even though they are essentially the same boat, they look very different while both retaining the side profile of the original PHANTOM. Again, my original intention was to bring back the PHANTOM in an updated configuration and to loose it's signature side profile would be a crime to me.

In a week or so, I will post a drawing of the .21 boat. Although it will look very similar, it does have distinct differences. Later! Joe

 

[JOEBISHOP]

Hey Jeff, start your forum, I am looking very forward to it! Just remember, there is no way in hell that everyone is going to agree with you! Sometimes you are right and sometimes they are right but the result will be a very interesting culmination of views! Joe

 

[Tom Foley]

By the way, to further what Andy and Jeff said about automotive paints, if the paint requires adding a harder, DO NOT USE IT! One of the big problems with automotive hardened paints is the crap will get in your lungs, harden and never come out not to mention the bad chemicals that can be absorbed through your skin. Why do you think automotive companies have spent millions on robots to paint cars. When humans do touch up spraying, they are working in a state of the art, down draft paint booth with space suits on and independent air source masks. Absolutely no part of their bodies is exposed to the paint spray or vapor. If that don't scare you away from using it, do so at a great risk to yourself and other members of your family.

Ok time to chime in here. First Andy is right about primer over wood without sealing with epoxy first, don't do it. You gain significant structural strength from the epoxy wicking into the wood as well as a base the the primer can chemically bond to (as long as it's properly prepped). As for paints with hardeners, if you want something durable and fuel proof that is what you will need to shoot. I fully understand the issues career auto painters have experienced and also how car manufacturers use robots now but we are talking about painting a model boat not a fleet of Cadillacs. Also keep in mind you might be painting maybe what a few boats a year, not constant exposure day in and day out as if you were doing it for a paycheck. YES proper protection is VERY important starting with a high quality PROPERLY FITTING 2 stage respirator mask as well as gloves and full length clothing BUT things are very different now with the hi volume low pressure spray guns. In the past the high pressure guns sent most of the product airborne, only 30-35% actually provided coverage. Not only was there a high amount of product waste but the particulate that became airborne became an evironmental concern which drew the EPAs attention and new rules were mandated in that regard which brought us the current HVLP technology. Now with the modern HVLP guns typically 80% winds up on the object being painted and what doesn't has far less velocity and tends to stay lower to the floor. With proper ventilation the new urethanes and epoxy paints can be safely applied even in home shops. Using a Sata minijet HVLP detail gun I can lay down two coats of PPG acrylic urethane on a twin tub using about 3oz. of paint, something unheard of with the old hi pressure guns. As with anything proper protection goes a long way in many aspects of our hobby and honestly I consider working on props far more dangerous than painting as far as the toxicity of what you come in contact with, the beryllium in the props is wickedly dangerous and the dust created from working them can absorb into your skin even easier than paint fumes.

I'll also appologize in advance for sidetracking this thread but I felt the need to reply to some of the over the top responses regarding painting.

Good info . When possible also paint up wind of the object and I always use the" breath holding " method while also using the respirator . The parts are so small you can hold your breath while spraying upwind of the part then back off and catch a breath . Clean up is where I usually get the most exposure to the chemicals

 

[Andy Brown]

Hey Guys

I am about finished with the ULTRA kit, PHANTOM II, A1/2A boat. Finish the rigging, paint and decals and it's finished. What I thought I would tell you guys is the weight of the boat with every thing piled in it, all in it's appropriate place. It weighs 2 lbs and 8 oz. Granted there is no paint on it yet but the way I intend to paint it, I really don't think it will pickup much more than a few more ounces. One of my goal was to keep it under 3 lbs and that is very much a possibility! Here is the kicker, the ELITE boat will be even lighter yet.

Lets touch on painting for a moment. I notice a lot of guys coat their boats with epoxy resin. Even manufacturers suggest doing it this way. They paint on one coat, sand it down and then apply another coat. After sanding they go to the paint process. Back in the day when I originally started producing Phantoms, I coated the inside of the boat with a thin coat of epoxy resin but the out side of the boat was not coated with resin. K&B used to sell a very good epoxy paint. I would prime the outside of the boat with epoxy primer, work it out to perfectly smooth then spray on a couple coats of K&B epoxy paint. My boats never got water under the paint! I never noticed wood grain raising due to water leakage. I am searching for a good epoxy paint to replace the K&B Epoxy as I don't believe they offer it anymore. I will again finish my boats in this manner as I think it is much lighter.

An example of the bare wood to epoxy paint is my Phantom 90 boat which is now 38 years old. The pictures below was taken about a month ago. Looks pretty darn good to be 38 years old. The black & white Photo is my original Phantom CE back when I was racing it. Later! Joe

" I would prime the outside of the boat with epoxy primer, work it out to perfectly smooth then spray on a couple coats of K&B epoxy paint."

I disagree with this method. I used the same exact method in the 70's and early 80's. But since about 1985 we used one or two coats of epoxy on the bare wood and then two coats of K&B or Klasscoat straight over the epoxy. Forget the epoxy Primer. It lays on the surface of the wood and does nothing to protect it. The epoxy will saturate into the wood an make a tough wood grain/epoxy composite surface that will not peel. I have seen Primer peel right off the wood surface.

For a few years we used one coat of clear Imron on the bare wood followed by two coats of Imron color. This was by far the most durable finish we ever used. There are probably still a few Mongooses around with that finish on them. It was a Killer finish, but the Imron almost killed me, literally.

One of my favorite boats, an Imron Mongoose.

Yes, probably built and painted around 1989. I personally brushed on a coat of clear Imron. Then completely hand sanded every square inch of the boat, inside and out. Then it went to the Bodyshop for a heavy coat of custom mixed yellow Imron. Again, every square inch was wet sanded by hand with 400 and 600 grit until it was glass smooth and there was absolutely no glossy paint anywhere, inside or out! It then went back to the bodyshop for the final finish coat of Imron yellow.

The paint job is worth more than what we sold the complete RTR boat for. We painted boats that way until 1993.

Those were the days when I was Young and Stupid!

 

[DON MAHER]

Andy,

Now your like me, "Old and not so Bold"

Don

 

[Andy Brown]

Andy,

Now your like me, "Old and not so Bold"

Don

Yes Don! And we both seem to get one year older on the same day every year. So you are correct. I'm like you!