new .21 rigger

[Andy Brown]

Anthony,

Is the cooling jacket still stock? If so, fill the water passage up with JBWeld or similar and then use a dremel to make a considerably smaller volume water passage. The stock Nova cooling jacket passage is HUGE - way too big for a rigger! I also restrict the water at the fitting on the rudder blade in conjuction with less water volume in the jacket.

With the cooling restricted and good compression, it should still haul the mail on a rich needle. Read your plug after a run and don't run the boat out of fuel on the water.

A good qualified suggestion Tim! It sure makes a difference when some details are known. I will add some other suggestions later.

 

[aaron alberico]

Anthony,

nothing wrong at all with the 1450 propeller,

i run very fast with cut down one at 46mm, 3.5cup,

Andy, Tim etc are on the right track with set up help

stick with there advice and you will get there,

Mark, what is wrong with the Jae kit boat,

as mine runs real nice.

regards Aaron

 

[shoboat]

Aaron,

Nothing wrong at all with the JAE boat kit, I have 6 of them currently.

Nothing wrong at all with a 1450 @ 46mm and 3.21" of cup either.

With all these experts helping Anthony I am not sure why he needs any

of my help now. :unsure:

Just so you know Anthony does not have a JAE-21 boat, it is his own design.

I offer some help with a few propellers to Anthony and I am the bad guy?

Some people on here need to read the post over.

Anthony,

Andy has all the answers let him help you. I'm done posting for awhile.

Anthony Good Luck Testing,

Mark Sholund

 

[RodneyPierce]

Mark, send props or pipes to me any day to test brother. TD is also the MAN! Regardless Anthony, you will get that rigger rocking bro.

 

[anthony_marquart]

Mark, I would still really like the opportunity to test some props.. or whatever,..

THanks for all suggestions guys.. Now I just need to find some more fuel before sat!!!

 

[Charles Perdue]

Anthony,

Send me your address and I will send you the cure to your problem.

Wrong pipe and propeller on this set up.

Thanks,

Mark Sholund

Mark,

What exactly is wrong with the PROP and PIPE? That pipe and prop have has run very fast for many different riggers. Both that prop and pipe are very popular and have been for decades! The 3.2" cup could be bumped up, but only if Anthony is willing to bump up the nitro as well.

You can tell guys what they need all you want, but it would be a good idea to collect all the details first and help them fine tune what they have before suggesting they go out and get new parts!

I would second that. Also why be secretive, just say it.....

Marty, how is your new boat running, how did it do in Charleston?

Charles

 

[Ted buckley]

Aaron,

Nothing wrong at all with the JAE boat kit, I have 6 of them currently.

Nothing wrong at all with a 1450 @ 46mm and 3.21" of cup either.

With all these experts helping Anthony I am not sure why he needs any

of my help now. :unsure:

Just so you know Anthony does not have a JAE-21 boat, it is his own design.

I offer some help with a few propellers to Anthony and I am the bad guy?

Some people on here need to read the post over.

Anthony,

Andy has all the answers let him help you. I'm done posting for awhile.

Anthony Good Luck Testing,

Mark Sholund

Hey Mark, My rigger design is not a JAE and my set-up is very similar to Anthony's. Only difference is I use a Mac pipe, turn a 1450 Bone-stock, and hull weight is at 3lbs. 9oz.(Dry). Looking to go to an H7 after doing alot of research on Props/maybe an H6 or even H5. Your not the Bad guy by any means - so with that being said; please send me some test props, and I promise I won't bend-em.

 

[Don Ferrette]

I offer some help with a few propellers to Anthony and I am the bad guy?

Some people on here need to read the post over.

Anthony,

Andy has all the answers let him help you. I'm done posting for awhile.

Anthony Good Luck Testing,

Mark Sholund

Oh good grief, enough of this nonsense already. Mark, no offense whatsoever to you but post after post you come on saying how you've done all this testing and have these magic bullets for props but you don't say much other than little teaser posts without any data to back up you claims. After a while people will begin to question things be it you or anyone else, that's just human nature. I don't think anyone is being unreasonable with asking for a little more "data" and "facts" and a little less "fluff". All of us have made gains and improvements by others sharing with us and that includes you. Regardless if you choose to believe it your prop biz wouldn't even exist without people sharing things with you that got you going down the path you're on. You're a good guy and have helped many people with props and that's a great thing so lighten up a little and maybe consider giving folks a little "data" to chew on. Nobody is asking for trade secrets and sharing usable information is how we keep growing this hobby.

 

[Charles Perdue]

Is it January already???????

 

[Marty Davis]

Anthony,

Send me your address and I will send you the cure to your problem.

Wrong pipe and propeller on this set up.

Thanks,

Mark Sholund

Mark,

What exactly is wrong with the PROP and PIPE? That pipe and prop have has run very fast for many different riggers. Both that prop and pipe are very popular and have been for decades! The 3.2" cup could be bumped up, but only if Anthony is willing to bump up the nitro as well.

You can tell guys what they need all you want, but it would be a good idea to collect all the details first and help them fine tune what they have before suggesting they go out and get new parts!

I would second that. Also why be secretive, just say it.....

Marty, how is your new boat running, how did it do in Charleston?

Charles

Charles:

New boat was running awesome at Charleston. Only problem is that I broke it in the first heat. A very good competitor had not run in 5 years and when he went wide I went in to pass at buoy 10 for the lead and he decided that he wanted that spot. Had to make a quick decision whether to hit him or try to cut the buoy. I hit the rope holding the buoy and broke off the front sponson.

I can't wait to get the boat even more sorted. I was not really well prepared for Charleston, but I was super happy with the performance. I had run the boat maybe 8-10 runs before the race.

It is BY FAR the best 20 hydro that I have ever had and can't wait to work with it more.

 

[Marty Davis]

I offer some help with a few propellers to Anthony and I am the bad guy?

Some people on here need to read the post over.

Anthony,

Andy has all the answers let him help you. I'm done posting for awhile.

Anthony Good Luck Testing,

Mark Sholund

Oh good grief, enough of this nonsense already. Mark, no offense whatsoever to you but post after post you come on saying how you've done all this testing and have these magic bullets for props but you don't say much other than little teaser posts without any data to back up you claims. After a while people will begin to question things be it you or anyone else, that's just human nature. I don't think anyone is being unreasonable with asking for a little more "data" and "facts" and a little less "fluff". All of us have made gains and improvements by others sharing with us and that includes you. Regardless if you choose to believe it your prop biz wouldn't even exist without people sharing things with you that got you going down the path you're on. You're a good guy and have helped many people with props and that's a great thing so lighten up a little and maybe consider giving folks a little "data" to chew on. Nobody is asking for trade secrets and sharing usable information is how we keep growing this hobby.

Don:

You are spot on.

I have found that if you give a lot of the information that you learn from testing and just thinking, that you will continue to progress so fast that it really doesn't matter that you give out helpful information. This is a lesson that I learned a LONG time ago and I will continue to do it. It also helps elevate the racers knowlege base a ton. Secrets are OK for some, but I really have found that it is better to just put out the information and keep working on learning more and more and more.

That is the EXACT REASON that I decided to release the Squish Velocity information. I found that it made such a huge difference in performance that it was good for everyone to have access to it. Would have been easy to keep it for myself. I'm just not made that way.....

By the way, what I have learned about Squish Velocity I have posted in a Tech Notes on the Engine-Analysis-Software.com site in the past week.

 

[anthony_marquart]

Ok guys,. I made a few changes, maybe too many at once, but I'll be trying it this weekend.

I added the internal stinger to the pipe making the ID .2845. I ran the internal stinger to just about in line with the widest point on the pipe. I added a litte more water restriction with a small tie wrap just above the rudder. I adjusted the remote needle set up because I was just about as lean as I could go. I turned the screw in about 1/2 turn and adjusted the setting back to about mid range of the throw. This will give me the range I need to go a little leaner if needed.

I also added a tiny bit of negative strut angle on someone elses advice.

I realize this is too many changes to make at once. hopefully I don't go backwards!!!!

Thoughts?

 

[Andy Brown]

Ok guys,. I made a few changes, maybe too many at once, but I'll be trying it this weekend.

I added the internal stinger to the pipe making the ID .2845. I ran the internal stinger to just about in line with the widest point on the pipe. I added a litte more water restriction with a small tie wrap just above the rudder. I adjusted the remote needle set up because I was just about as lean as I could go. I turned the screw in about 1/2 turn and adjusted the setting back to about mid range of the throw. This will give me the range I need to go a little leaner if needed.

I also added a tiny bit of negative strut angle on someone elses advice.

I realize this is too many changes to make at once. hopefully I don't go backwards!!!!

Thoughts?

Don't worry about making the engine leaner. You've ALREADY been too lean, because you did blow a plug. What you want to do is burn more fuel. Restricting the water alone will help that. Also shorten the pipe more. Cut the header as short as possible and taper the inside end of it. Take the dremel to it and carve a taper down in there about 3/8" to 1/2" if you can get that far. Next cut that 1/4" of header section off your OPS pipe so that the engine header butts to the cone of the pipe. You can cut a couple of shallow grooves on the OD of the pipe to help the silicon coupler maintain a good grip and not slide off. This will get your rpm up and also burn more fuel too.

Drill a .040" diameter hole in the back of the rudder until it meets the water pick up hole going up the back of the blade. Do this just below the water fitting. This will act as a pressure relief valve and eliminate the possibility of blowing out the water line. It will also make the tie wrap adjusting less sensitive. You will still get plenty of water pressure for even the hottest weather when you do need more water flow. Tie wraps are good for a last resort when you are at the pond and need to make an adjustment, but there are several other options that are much more accurate.

The smaller stinger will give you more tank pressure, so it is good that your gave yourself more room to lean the needle.

If you have a lathe available it would be a good idea to cut about .015" off the squish band and recut the shoulder to get the correct head clearance. Look for a plug depth of .105". There are other ways to mod the head, but that suggestion works for a wide range of variables with 50 to 70% nitro.

Try to keep the H.C. closer to .007-.008" if you go up to 60% nitro. .008"-.010" is ok for 50%.

These are things that will get you more speed without spending money for new parts.

 

[Terry Keeley]

All sounds good to me and going in the right direction.

I tried the tie wrap water restrictor but couldn't get it consistant, it would flow almost full water then shut off completely when clamped that last little bit. If you have an old needle valve that'd be better.

Also, I found you need very little water to get a 21 up to temp and run a 0.020" restrictor year round. If you have a flow meter (old style) it'll only flow about 2 from the top of the head back. This is for 60% fuel, 12% oil in a mono with very little air cooling. You have to stay on the rich side of the needle with this tho, get over center and it'll take the plug immediately. :unsure:

 

[Ted buckley]

Ok guys,. I made a few changes, maybe too many at once, but I'll be trying it this weekend.

I added the internal stinger to the pipe making the ID .2845. I ran the internal stinger to just about in line with the widest point on the pipe. I added a litte more water restriction with a small tie wrap just above the rudder. I adjusted the remote needle set up because I was just about as lean as I could go. I turned the screw in about 1/2 turn and adjusted the setting back to about mid range of the throw. This will give me the range I need to go a little leaner if needed.

I also added a tiny bit of negative strut angle on someone elses advice.

I realize this is too many changes to make at once. hopefully I don't go backwards!!!!

Thoughts?

Don't worry about making the engine leaner. You've ALREADY been too lean, because you did blow a plug. What you want to do is burn more fuel. Restricting the water alone will help that. Also shorten the pipe more. Cut the header as short as possible and taper the inside end of it. Take the dremel to it and carve a taper down in there about 3/8" to 1/2" if you can get that far. Next cut that 1/4" of header section off your OPS pipe so that the engine header butts to the cone of the pipe. You can cut a couple of shallow grooves on the OD of the pipe to help the silicon coupler maintain a good grip and not slide off. This will get your rpm up and also burn more fuel too.

Drill a .040" diameter hole in the back of the rudder until it meets the water pick up hole going up the back of the blade. Do this just below the water fitting. This will act as a pressure relief valve and eliminate the possibility of blowing out the water line. It will also make the tie wrap adjusting less sensitive. You will still get plenty of water pressure for even the hottest weather when you do need more water flow. Tie wraps are good for a last resort when you are at the pond and need to make an adjustment, but there are several other options that are much more accurate.

The smaller stinger will give you more tank pressure, so it is good that your gave yourself more room to lean the needle.

If you have a lathe available it would be a good idea to cut about .015" off the squish band and recut the shoulder to get the correct head clearance. Look for a plug depth of .105". There are other ways to mod the head, but that suggestion works for a wide range of variables with 50 to 70% nitro.

Try to keep the H.C. closer to .007-.008" if you go up to 60% nitro. .008"-.010" is ok for 50%.

These are things that will get you more speed without spending money for new parts.

Andy, great little piece.. I get/understand/and appreciate everything you said here, and finally - YES, some transfer of knowledge from the greats. I'm grapling with one part here - though: "Also shorten the pipe more. Cut the header as short as possible and taper the inside end of it. Take the dremel to it and carve a taper down in there about 3/8" to 1/2" if you can get that far. Next cut that 1/4" of header section off your OPS pipe so that the engine header butts to the cone of the pipe. You can cut a couple of shallow grooves on the OD of the pipe to help the silicon coupler maintain a good grip and not slide off"..

The part I don't get is, won't this upset the fine balance of "Tuned pipe resonance" if your butting the end of the pipe(Inside) the header, as opposed to the other way around?

This is why I never try to attempt to get it that short. My mind say's that if the wave Exits the Exhaust port with a smooth transition - it is better than if it left turbulant and came back smooth... Maybe this is why I'm not rich.

 

[anthony_marquart]

Thoughts?

"Don't worry about making the engine leaner. You've ALREADY been too lean, because you did blow a plug." The one plug I popped was on the first tank of fuel for the engine,.. I'm thinking it was probably part of the breakin of a new engine.

Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[Ted buckley]

Thoughts?

"Don't worry about making the engine leaner. You've ALREADY been too lean, because you did blow a plug." The one plug I popped was on the first tank of fuel for the engine,.. I'm thinking it was probably part of the breakin of a new engine.

Thanks for all the help guys.

Anthony, My thoughts - for what it's worth. My son has a NR 5port and blew a plug on his first tank of fuel too. He wasn't too lean - then, but for all the "Tea in China" we couldn't get the temp. up in that engine, until he just pulled the water(All together). He ran it for four laps and brought it in to check the temp. The temp. was up but not much. We put it out there again, and left it out there for 5-6 laps. After about lap 4-1/2 - the thing just took off.. Brought it in and did a Temp. check 230degrees. After about 2-3 times of doing this, we could then add water(Restricted).. This is the same Breakin for our NR 7ports.. I love these engines, but for some reason(weird break-in's and tempermental).. It seems that after that first initial Cook-in, You can do what you want - afterwards.. Kinda like a wild Stallion that needs to be broken b4 you get on.

 

[anthony_marquart]

THis is great information. I doubt this thing has ever seen anything close to 200f. I'm a little scared to run with NO water,.. Maybe I just need to give it a good cooking to get it going!!!

Anthony, My thoughts - for what it's worth. My son has a NR 5port and blew a plug on his first tank of fuel too. He wasn't too lean - then, but for all the "Tea in China" we couldn't get the temp. up in that engine, until he just pulled the water(All together). He ran it for four laps and brought it in to check the temp. The temp. was up but not much. We put it out there again, and left it out there for 5-6 laps. After about lap 4-1/2 - the thing just took off.. Brought it in and did a Temp. check 230degrees. After about 2-3 times of doing this, we could then add water(Restricted).. This is the same Breakin for our NR 7ports.. I love these engines, but for some reason(weird break-in's and tempermental).. It seems that after that first initial Cook-in, You can do what you want - afterwards.. Kinda like a wild Stallion that needs to be broken b4 you get on.

 

[JRXHydros]

Ok guys,. I made a few changes, maybe too many at once, but I'll be trying it this weekend.

I added the internal stinger to the pipe making the ID .2845. I ran the internal stinger to just about in line with the widest point on the pipe. I added a litte more water restriction with a small tie wrap just above the rudder. I adjusted the remote needle set up because I was just about as lean as I could go. I turned the screw in about 1/2 turn and adjusted the setting back to about mid range of the throw. This will give me the range I need to go a little leaner if needed.

I also added a tiny bit of negative strut angle on someone elses advice.

I realize this is too many changes to make at once. hopefully I don't go backwards!!!!

Thoughts?

Don't worry about making the engine leaner. You've ALREADY been too lean, because you did blow a plug. What you want to do is burn more fuel. Restricting the water alone will help that. Also shorten the pipe more. Cut the header as short as possible and taper the inside end of it. Take the dremel to it and carve a taper down in there about 3/8" to 1/2" if you can get that far. Next cut that 1/4" of header section off your OPS pipe so that the engine header butts to the cone of the pipe. You can cut a couple of shallow grooves on the OD of the pipe to help the silicon coupler maintain a good grip and not slide off. This will get your rpm up and also burn more fuel too.

Drill a .040" diameter hole in the back of the rudder until it meets the water pick up hole going up the back of the blade. Do this just below the water fitting. This will act as a pressure relief valve and eliminate the possibility of blowing out the water line. It will also make the tie wrap adjusting less sensitive. You will still get plenty of water pressure for even the hottest weather when you do need more water flow. Tie wraps are good for a last resort when you are at the pond and need to make an adjustment, but there are several other options that are much more accurate.

The smaller stinger will give you more tank pressure, so it is good that your gave yourself more room to lean the needle.

If you have a lathe available it would be a good idea to cut about .015" off the squish band and recut the shoulder to get the correct head clearance. Look for a plug depth of .105". There are other ways to mod the head, but that suggestion works for a wide range of variables with 50 to 70% nitro.

Try to keep the H.C. closer to .007-.008" if you go up to 60% nitro. .008"-.010" is ok for 50%.

These are things that will get you more speed without spending money for new parts.

Now that is a great posting of information Andy...A1#1

 

[Ted buckley]

THis is great information. I doubt this thing has ever seen anything close to 200f. I'm a little scared to run with NO water,.. Maybe I just need to give it a good cooking to get it going!!!

Anthony, My thoughts - for what it's worth. My son has a NR 5port and blew a plug on his first tank of fuel too. He wasn't too lean - then, but for all the "Tea in China" we couldn't get the temp. up in that engine, until he just pulled the water(All together). He ran it for four laps and brought it in to check the temp. The temp. was up but not much. We put it out there again, and left it out there for 5-6 laps. After about lap 4-1/2 - the thing just took off.. Brought it in and did a Temp. check 230degrees. After about 2-3 times of doing this, we could then add water(Restricted).. This is the same Breakin for our NR 7ports.. I love these engines, but for some reason(weird break-in's and tempermental).. It seems that after that first initial Cook-in, You can do what you want - afterwards.. Kinda like a wild Stallion that needs to be broken b4 you get on.

I was a little skeeered myself But, if you are - just don't leave it out there too long and you'll be o.k.(Check it when it comes in)Anything above 180 - 230 is good. I don't run any h2O on my .12 - never, and it loves it... Cook that fuel - Get that Temp. up!!! Then, with that being said -you can make your adjustments(Per all the Good info. Above). Good luck Anthony.