Lipo Lowdown From My POV.

[Paul Pachmayer]

Andrew,

I wonder if you understand just how involved Joerg is in the development of these new cells or the assessment he has done.

Are you saying Joerg is helping Enerland develope their cells? I wonder if you know how involved I am?

weights aint racing

What?

the 3rd (owned) 10S 48" mono 2215 2100 mah in 5 lapsthe 4th (owned) 10S 43 inch sport hydro 2215/1.5Y in 5 laps 2350 mah - speed right up there with QD 35 Insane and Seaducer sport hydros

Andrew, I have no idea of how you guys race in Australia but if those numbers you listed are correct you would stand no chance racing in the open classes here in the States on a 1/6th mile course.

There is only one reason to go to 2P with the 25C packs and that is so racers spend more money.

You are oh so wrong with a blanket statement like that.

Paul.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Joerg,

You know what? I think I was way way to polite with you. But, ok, I know now.

Sorry you feel that way. My blog is where I'll post EXACTLY what's on my mind. I can't get banned there and what I type there is what I would say to anyone in person. I'm not a PC kind of guy Joerg, I say what's on my mind and right or wrong people know my position. Don't think for a minute I'm alone in my thoughts either, I just happen to be the kind of guy that will say it in the open.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Andrew,

The price of the boat just went from being less thana 3.5cc to about the same as a 90.

I've gone over pricing top class boats with the nitro guys and in the U.S. a 3.5 boat is in the 1000.00USD range. Sure you can do it cheaper but if you want a top class winner that's what it costs. Let's not forget most guys will have at least two engines for that boat, plus pipes, plus head buttons, plus pistons and sleeves and a host of other goodies to keep them on the water.

The cells Paul "tested" appear not the 25c cells Joerg and I mentioned. They werent tested they were weighed. Further Paul in his own posts on IWW has acknowledged that his boats using old 20C 2P 3700s need larger hulls than a 1P setup. For those clubs with small ovals start looking for bigger lakes real quick.

I didn't say I "tested" any 25C cells. Someone asked for sizes and I posted numbers directly off Enerlands data sheets for 20C and 25C cells. Also I haven't run 3700 cells in well over a year. I exclusively run 4350 20C cells in my boats, bang for buck the the best for me.

Most of the main proponents of 2P are among the better off in the model boat community. 1P/mass limit imposes no limitation on them in terms of building bigger more powerful boats - just go up in series no harm in that.

I think not Andrew, the proponents of 2P are the guys that race on a regular basis and do so on larger courses. In a standard 5 lap race on a 10th or 8th mile course I would agree a 1P setup is sufficiant.

 

[Andrewg]

Paul

What objective data do you have regarding lap times etc and video to support the need for 10AH boats? versus a more afforable option?

We got video with 7.5 speed from 6S1P, at less cost than 4S2P (maybe cause its a 3S2P). The loggers show we dont need more capacity.

If a cost comparo with Nitro is valid surely its real cost first year of ownership. I have done that for H&M Neu TP based setups I use vs Seaducer CMB setups. including consumables on both sides. 1P electric has less cost for the same or more performance. 2P is more expensive than either.

In the history of consumer activity falling real cost is a critical element in the success of new technology. 1p/mass rule achieves that plus greater performance, plus product choice. 2P 10AH + idoisyncratic motor weights lock people into higher real costs and limit motor selection the absolute worst problem is the proposal is not practical to ever scrutineer - if a specification cant be checked it may as well be fantasy.

We only run nitro ovals and race lengths so I cant comment on smaller rings.

I only use 20C cells in my 700 boats, from up 5000 mah. I like the 5AH in a mono - the heavier cells provides a little ballast. In a race boat the heat from 20C is too high and performance not up to contemporary standards. The cost of 2P too great to bother trying especially when the the simplicity of 1P 25C cells and the practical implications of much simpler charging and reduced energy requirements at the pond, are considered.

Jorge thinks he can crack his record on 6S1P 5AH cells. Do you?

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Andrew,

In my opinion it is a deeply flawed proposal which is unable to meet and manage the challenge of lithium in its own terms (voltage and mass) and creates a new problem (hull limitations). It is needlessly complex and unworkable for the scrutineers (who surely will never attempt nor be able to police it). Conflict of interest aslo should be addressed as the proposal might be interpreted as being written in favour of particular products and against others.

First off I'm not writing these rules, I'm more of a moderator. There is a very large group of racers that debate their points and until a consensus is reached. There is no conflict of intrest as you put it and the rules as agreed upon included all wording that alows the use of A123 cells in 3P setups for guys that wish to go that route. I don't care for some of the wording but that's what was agreed upon and I'll go with the masses.
Please, don't toss out statements as fact if you don't know what's going on. Your not involved with IMPBA racing so why would you try to steer people in the wrong direction?

A glarring omission is primary safety measures. While the secondary flim flam of bags bins and sand buckets are raised the proposal is silent on fundemental, primary safety measures including LiPoly specific chargers, the use of balancers and Lipo voltage cutoff escs or twin (redundant) recievers for larger boats.

I have no idea where your head is but I have a suspicion you need a navel lens to see. "Flim flam"? There is no need to list fundementals of lipo use, if your using lipos it's your responsibility to understand the usage guidelines when you buy them. Secondary pit safety is all that's needed in the rules.

The cost structure is unaffordable eg An entry class brushless E1 mono with a Lehner 2230/5 or 6 ($258)!!, a MGM 224 amp esc ($399)!! and $250 lipo pack will cost $807 for batteries esc and motor - Add to that hardware, hull, radio, connectors, plugs, props, boom box for the lipos, a large charger, 2*5S balancers etc. Its agreat recipe simple inexpensive and not at all overpowered. The E2 will cost more than a 3.5 far more; 6S will be a 90 sized hull with comensurate costs.

Hmmm, things must be different on your side of the pond. My E1 mono cost no where near that much. I'm not going to get into the specs of my boat because it's going to the SAWs in a couple weeks but I will say it's only running a cuda 125 for a speed control. Your empirical theroy has always been off Andrew, I've given up posting to your threads in the past as have others. I think it's time for me to revisit that practice.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Andrew,

Jorge thinks he can crack his record on 6S1P 5AH cells. Do you?

Do I think he could do it? Maybe, I think it will be pushing the equipment pretty hard though.

 

[Andrewg]

Paul

you said" Hmmm, things must be different on your side of the pond. My E1 mono cost no where near that much."

PMSL - the prices are from Ray Fuller and Fine Design RC. Thats what those guys charge ordinary folk as of yesterday.

You are correct I am not part of the IMPBA but I am part of IWW and thats where the proposal appeared and to which I was directed by Mr Nayman. I have a lot of experience drafting successful legislation and regulation. The proposal breaks all the rules for achieving a good result.

No conflict of interest is good. The proposal has biases in it. My reason for suggesting the review of at least the motor categories was to avoid someone, you, having that allegation hung on them at a later date.

That leaves a very complex solution, which cannot be scutineered.

The 2P 10AH spec is followed by further regualtions to limit the cost impact of a 2P pack on motors and hulls and by implication on escs and other ancilliaries. In short all further specs attempt to limit the potential of 2P. This is the essence of bureaucracy - regulation and process created to control the new regulation.

A alternative solution is to use a formula such as 300gm per 'cell" in series (a defacto 2P 10Ah spec) and no other changes. However given there is a clear desire to limit the cost impact, a formula of 200 or 150gm per cell in series would enable the bureaucratic regulation to be eliminated and make scrutineering easier, faster and cheaper.

You put primary safety as an individual responsibility; Do you mean you want to give them authority to be responsible or just hope they will be?

Primary safety is called primary because its the main game. Its necessary to reduce risk and cost. 2ndary safety is needed when risk is not managed and a real danger presents itself. On its own secondary safety is just a safer way to watch your money burn - in this case literally and 2P is an even greater amount of money!

Including primary safety in the rules would reduce the need for formal government by lending every racer the authority to enforce safety by simply referring to the rules. If primary safety isnt in the rules anyone can ignore risks and tell people to get lost and no one can do anything about it. Why ignore risk till it is a danger or why leave safety to chance?

 

[AlanN]

Well I'm glad Paul jumped in before I did. Not much time in my life to disect and correct what Andrew has been saying.

Quite frankly Andrew....go ahead and build the 200+ amp setups you have previously posted....I would like to SEE the results. If you stick with the hull sizes that are listed in the IMPBA proposals I would love to see those hull finish heats...in real race water. Maybe you could make something work properly adhering to those rules and if so I would be one the first to pat you on the back.

Safety: Buckets of sand.

I cannot believe that you guys are so negative against a simple solution to extinguishing a potential fire. And HELL YES! Individuals are responsible for theirs and others safety. When you purchase a lipo from a dealer you generaly have to sign an agreement for safety. I have done as much and more than most regarding instructing people how to safely handle these cells. Not everything I have done is on the web! I always tell racers to call or ask me anything anytime.

Andrew,

You seem to type things on the hypocritical side....you don't think Paul should be involved with any rules becouse he sells boat stuff. Aren't you a dealer trying to change the rules...and could you ever post something without the word NEU in it? You are a very one sided dealer IMO. As Paul has stated....there are many racers inputting their thoughts and ideas and it is being worked. Paul IS pooling the ideas together but most info comes from others.

Also,

You are doing more harm than good with the misinformation you have been posting.

My E-1 setup is (any hacker style B50L) can and a good schulze speed controller with 1 or 2p setup. And yes I have and will still use chulze controllers...expensive or not....they just plain work.

Not much more or less than I would normally run(cost wise). And some of the setups I tried were capable of running and some were just too darned fast for the SIZE of the hull.

BTW these are IMPBA rules. Not Australian billybong rules. If you want to set an example...please do so and write up your rules for what you race. So SHOW us what's wrong....don't just tell us.

I and others have been using/testing/racing lipos for 3years. There is bench testing and real testing....so far all I have heard is theoretical assumptions.

 

[Jeff Shriver]

Most of the main proponents of 2P are among the better off in the model boat community.

I don't think this is necessarily true. I know a few people (including me) who will run the Maxamp 8000HV packs this summer. A 2S2P 8000HV pack is $120. A 2S1P pack of PolyRC PX2S-5000 or TP5000-2SX is roughly $125.00.

 

[Scott_T]

Alan,

We are drafting rules in Australia, and Andrew stepped back months ago from the procedure due to him being a dealer. And I doubt Andrew will be building any 200A set ups anytime soon as that's not the direction we are going in.

He has some points on the IMPBA proposal - the motor weights are odd, and the capacity limit will be difficult to scrutineer. But that's for you guys to figure out.

We'll stick to our billabongs and just enjoy the racing.

 

[Andrewg]

Jeff

I can only recommend a TP 25c 2S1P 5AH pack - the MAP on them is $124.

The smaller capacity may look like less value - but it isnt.

These cells run harder and last longer.

Until you use one it wont be apparent I still look at mine which is about the smae size as a .45 fuel tank and wonder how it and the motor can make so much power and stay cool but they do

Good luck racing this season.

 

[Andrewg]

I look forward to seeing the IMPBA's electric membership bloom under the hand of the infinite wisdom tolerance and grace so amply demonstrated in this thread.

 

[PropNut]

Andrew,

I have argued with you in the past as well. Whether I agree or disagree, your long winded diatribes almost always contain a gem of knowledge. Your comments are always welcome from this boater. Please keep posting.

All the best,

Ray

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Andrew,

Just to clairify some things.

Until the begining of Feb. 07 the only cells available were the 20C cells (Poly-RC) TP rated the same cells at 22C. The trick there was TP's cutoff voltage was higher if you read the "fine print". It was a matter of symantics to sell batteries. Enerland posted their tests at 22C. So here in the States we haven't had enough time to test 25C cells as you have, must be a magic pipe line to Austrailia since it sounds as though you've been running them for a much longer time than they have been out. Also the 30C cells will be available by the end of the month here.

When I hinted at a 1P setup in a couple classes it was shot down. Simple fact is some people wanted to run A123 cells and they need 3P setups to use them. Certainly there are classes that could get by on 1P setups and in any boat I run that can do it I will and have done so. With a 5000 cell I don't feel comfortable pulling more than 3800 mah out of the pack.

Some of the setups you posted are out in left field. In specific the 8 and 10S setups. To be able to run in the open classes here you have to run 6 laps on the 3rd mile oval, add to that 2 mill laps and a cool down lap you've just run a mile and a half. Offshore is roughly twice that distance. If you want to win a race running against QDs, full mod G26 or 101s you best be running in the mid to upper 60s around here and there's no way a 2800mah draw will do it. Try around 4500 to 5000mah in an oval race or 6200 to 7000mah draw average in offshore. Literally hundreds of people have seen my boats run at dozens of races. Either you have some magical combo in your boat or the guys running these type of boats here (and there are a bunch of them) are really out to lunch on their combos.

In my setups the motor temps are around 90 to 108 degrees, controller temps around the same and battery temps from 110 to 125 are the norm dependant on the ambiant temp outside. Those numbers are using 20C 4350 Poly-RC cells in 2P. I'll be using those cells in my boat at the record trials in GA at the beginning of March. I'll run the boat as I do in oval trim with the props I normally use to heat race, if the waters good I expect 12 second lap times.

As far as IMPBA gaining FE members, it's already happenning. There are also clubs switching sanction. We'll run the rules as a trial period and tweak them as needed.

Paul.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Update,

I was wrong about the 30C cells. I did have specs on them but I overlooked the sheet. The 30C cells are on their way. The problem I see is capacity and cost, the cells are rated at 700, 1200, 2000, 3200 and 4500 mah capacity. I think the 4500s at this time would be the only cells to use in the 30C range. Price wise about the same as the 25C 5000 cells.

Example of Poly-RC branded;

2S 25C 5000, map is 129.94. Size is 150x43x18 272 grams

2S 30C 4500, map is 130.00. Size is 158x43x17 178 grams

The latest sheets from TP only show 25C cells max.

Paul.

 

[Andrewg]

Paul

Time to talk about what we agree on.

I received the first 25C packs last year. The cells had been in the USA since June/July 2006 and testing showed them to be a 25C pack. In terms of electrical characteristics and heat capability. We run them at up to 24C and have no problems at all. Even with 100+ temps they only get to 130 run in a tight battery box in a rigger.

The 30C look good for F5B and drag racing or SAW but with a rated life of 50 cycles the cost per run is high even in 1P twice the per run cost of nickel. I can see them offering value as a "press to pass option" to pick up a few points.

Re consumption figures - . We run 1/2 lap mill 5*300 and 1 after lap but in metres not yards; IMPBA runs an additional 600 yards. However two laps at full throttle is worth about .5ah - .6Ah - with that with speed in the mid-60's on the gun - that gives maybe 3AH consumption max. Which motor do you use in 10S sport hydro? I use a 2215/1.5Y perhaps motor characteristics or boat mass is the difference? The H&M 10S sport hydro is 15.5lb. My loggers, battery analyser and charger inputs all seem to tally on this point. I will test again tomorrow.

Do you have video of an oval setup 4S2P rigger running 4 or more laps on a nitro oval? How about lap times? Race times?

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Andrew,

I received the first 25C packs last year. The cells had been in the USA since June/July 2006 and testing showed them to be a 25C pack. In terms of electrical characteristics and heat capability.

Maybe I'm missing something here? Who had 25C cells in the U.S.? If your talking TP Extremes they were not true 25C cells and TP sold them as 22C. True 25C cells have just hit the market this year. I've been running those cells as well, TP and Poly-RC are selling the same enerland cells, I choose Poly-RC because of the way they assemble the cells, 10 AWG wire, solid tab welding and warrenty all played a factor over TP.

Which motor do you use in 10S sport hydro?

I use a 22 series Lehner motor. With the combo I run 10S1P is doable in an oval race.

Do you have video of an oval setup 4S2P rigger running 4 or more laps on a nitro oval? How about lap times? Race times?

Nope, don't have a rigger in my fleet. This is one of the things I'm working on right now. A complete 4S fleet to carry around with me for show and tell. I belive the 4S class will be the most popular and attractive. Boat size and speed being on par or a bit faster than .21 powered nitro boats. In other words the perfect crossover.

As far as video goes, we had a digi cam all weekend and didn't get 2 seconds of a heat, lol.

Paul.

 

[JfromJAGs]

Do you have video of an oval setup 4S2P rigger running 4 or more laps on a nitro oval? How about lap times? Race times?

Nope, don't have a rigger in my fleet. This is one of the things I'm working on right now. A complete 4S fleet to carry around with me for show and tell. I belive the 4S class will be the most popular and attractive. Boat size and speed being on par or a bit faster than .21 powered nitro boats. In other words the perfect crossover.

Now we are getting into real numbers. Maybe we need some help from the nitro guys here.

Lets compare power:

How much power does a 0.21 engine have in oval trim? I mean not what's written in the specs. I mean real power, available at realistic rpm when used in a rigger? Considering Mark Grim's record setting 0.21 rigger and comparing it to our record setting O hydro, I would guess around 1.8-2HP. So I would estimate an oval 0.21 rigger runs at 1.5HP, which is around 1100W.

Now take a 4s1p, 5000mAh LiPo pack, rated at 20C, which means 100A continous. At 100A it will put out about 14V (3.5V/cell), that's 1400W input power to the motor. Now estimating 85% efficiency for motor/controller, that's 1200W power put out to the prop, or in other words 1.6HP average. Peaks of 150A+ for acceleration are no problem and common with this configuration, which would mean about 2.5HP peak power.

BTW, a setup like this consumes 1670mAh per minute and runs for about 2.5min from a 5000mAh pack (including leaving 20% capacity in the pack).

Now compare weights:

Electric:

* battery (4s1p): 490g

* motor (HackerB50XL, LMT1950 or Neu 1515): 350g

* controller (CC180): 120g

= about 1kg or 2lbs 3oz.

The whole boat should be in the range of 1500-1800g (3-4lbs)

Nitro:

* motor, motor mount, fuel tank, pipe, throttle servo, ... (?)

= should be also in the rage of 2lbs+

Conclusion:

1. A 4s1p (5000mAh) electric boat should be able to compete with a 0.21 nitro boat, similar weight and similar power.

2. A 4s1p electric boat can be run with off the shelf equippment

3. A 4s2p boat would either need to run double runtime (at least 5-6min) or it will be able to output double power (which can't be done with off the shelf equippment at the moment)

Joerg

 

[Darin Jordan]

Conclusion: 1. A 4s1p (5000mAh) electric boat should be able to compete with a 0.21 nitro boat, similar weight and similar power.

2. A 4s1p electric boat can be run with off the shelf equippment

3. A 4s2p boat would either need to run double runtime (at least 5-6min) or it will be able to output double power (which can't be done with off the shelf equippment at the moment)

Joerg

Joerg... You are absolutly right... :blink:

(I figured you just needed to hear someone tell you that directly so you'd quit beating this dead horse with a stick! )

 

[JfromJAGs]

(I figured you just needed to hear someone tell you that directly so you'd quit beating this dead horse with a stick! )

So you are saying although the horse is already dead you need 2 sticks in parallel to beat that poor dead horse?