Lipo Lowdown From My POV.

[sjslhill]

"A 27 inch sport hydro on 2S2P will run with a .21 powered boat and it has "built in" limiters."

Is this a rigger Paul or sport hydro? Tell me more dude!

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Steve,

Is this a rigger Paul or sport hydro? Tell me more dude!

Sport Hydro Steve. With the energy available in a 2S2P setup speeds in the 50s are quite duable. I should mention it would be "easier" on equipment if we went 3S, class A could be 3S if people liked the idea.

Paul.

 

[sjslhill]

21 sport hydro with 3S2P? What mah packs, motor and controller and hull?

thanks,

Steve

Hi Steve,

Is this a rigger Paul or sport hydro? Tell me more dude!

Sport Hydro Steve. With the energy available in a 2S2P setup speeds in the 50s are quite duable. I should mention it would be "easier" on equipment if we went 3S, class A could be 3S if people liked the idea.

Paul.

 

[drobie]

Paul, you da man. I've posted a similar idea as an example on the other board about 6 times and it's either ignored or flamed with "you can't dump Q" like comments.

Some of the loudest criticism comes from guys who barely race anymore.

Go for it. I wish we had gone that direction from the beginning. I'm sick of trying to decide which of my 10+ hulls to work on.

In fact, if it weren't printed, I'd say dump the new proposal and write a rule that will actually take us further than halfway through '07.

But what do I know? :blink:

 

[Grimracer]

What can we do for the nubie.. How can we fit in? And or can we? You know we have a huge base of perspective new racers.. Likely larger then anybody else..

Boats like the SuperVee 27 and what ever the heck else we might come out with h34r: need to fit to make the kind of growth we all would like to see..

Do we follow your lead? Or do we design for the masses and you try to fit them in.. Or both?

If we Can work together now.. we can make great strides in FE boating. Hope this comes off right and not to harsh.. not the point…

Cheers

Grimracer

 

[eddieh]

Excellent Job Paul....... Very well explained and there isn't a lot of confusing as they say alphabet soup, also an excellent point of view, I think I missed the whole lipo issue but there were SO many conflicting sides it is or was impossible for me to see the up side, they have voted to allow fe in district 1, and it will be cool to see more 1/8th scales... you know me I liked getting whooped by as many different power sources as possible . what did you have in mind for 1/8th scale??? again thanks for a well thought out and explained solution..

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Guys,

What can we do for the nubie.. How can we fit in? And or can we? You know we have a huge base of perspective new racers.. Likely larger then anybody else..

Mike, first off, not to harsh at all. We would have LSH and LSM for new racers. I really don't know what the solution is to box art boats. I imagine you could try and come up with a out of the box classs but there just aren't enough choices. I wouldn't write a rule around one boat no matter how good the boat is. Do you have a suggestion?

Eddie, thanks! As far as 1/8th scale goes it would be run under class C power and follow IMPBAs 1/8th rules. One thing the debaters aren't getting is you can do more with less. But most people don't want to work the combo, they want it handed to them. I don't like the NAMBA proposal at all, it does nothing to address growth and is basicly the ssdd.

IMHO the CORE issue is the growth of FE, it ain't happenning. Sure, over the years I've seen dribs and drabs of new boaters but that's about it. For the tiny amount of FE boaters nationally I see no reason why a broad sweeping change can't be accomplished. Also it has been my experiance with the nitro and gas boaters that they are quite interested in what we're doing now. In my eyes the introduction of lipo cells is like finding the golden goose. We can compete at the same or higher levels than the nitro and gas boats, talk about a pool of prospective FE boaters.

I've watched and learned from the nitro and gas boaters over the last two years. I really wish other FE boaters would do the same, most have no desire to do so.

Paul.

 

[sjslhill]

"In my eyes the introduction of lipo cells is like finding the golden goose. We can compete at the same or higher levels than the nitro and gas boats, talk about a pool of prospective FE boaters."

Now you have lost me, you want FE to grow from Nitro and Gas? Is that growth?

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Steve,

Now you have lost me, you want FE to grow from Nitro and Gas? Is that growth?

Sure, why not. There are nitro and gas boaters that have made the "switch" over to FE powered boats. I understand many nitro or gas boaters love the sound and smell of fuel powered boats and would never give FE a second thought. I also know there are boat racers who could care less how it's powered as long as it's fast and reliable. Running FE powered boats of the same size as a fuel burner on the course and distance goes a long way in showing what FE boats are capable of. I'm not suggesting combining fuel and FE powered boats a couple of seperate FE classes offered at a fuel race gets the word out so to speak. Plus you may have a special "grudge" match, these are pretty fun to run for bragging rights.

Paul.

 

[drobie]

I understand many nitro or gas boaters love the sound and smell of fuel powered boats and would never give FE a second thought.

There are also a fair number (a majority??) of FE boaters who have no desire to race against nitro or even race at a mixed event. I'm one of them.

NOTE: That is not a dig against nitro/gas, it's simply personal preference.

I use my chainsaws to heat my home and restore our woodland prairie. I have no desire to take them to the pond. :lol:

IC engines are in fact not allowed on our pond by village ordinance. We let Grim demo one of his several years ago, but when Mark brought his last year, I calmped down and decided running it wasn't worth risking the good relationship we have with the town board.

"Build it and they will come."

 

[drobie]

What can we do for the nubie.. How can we fit in? And or can we? You know we have a huge base of perspective new racers.. Likely larger then anybody else.. Grimracer

1. Keep doing what you're doing, but more of it.

2. Release your new products in the spring, not at the end of the season.

3. Produce and make available to clubs a "come race your SV with us" poster (11 x 14), that they can add contact info to and hang in hobby shops and other places. I guarantee you'll increase sales.

I'm doing my own. Staples prints any full color document and mounts it on poster board for a few bucks. Heck, your marketing department would only have to make a *.pdf available for download and we could get our own printed.

It's going to be mid-next season before we can determine the impact of the SV on growth. Only one guy in our club doesn't have one yet, but I know over 10 have left local hobby shops and that's with the ponds frozen.

 

[Jeff Shriver]

Wow, I just got around to reading this thread, TWICE. Outstanding work Paul. Absolutely outstanding. The more I think about it, the more I agree with the class structure:

Class A is up to 7.4 nominal volts. Parallel up to 2 packs 10KmAh limit

Class B is up to 18.5 nominal volts. Parallel up to 2 packs 10K limit

Class C is up to 37 volts nominal. Parallel up to 2 packs unlimited capacity.

I am tired of trying to keep many boats competitive. It has often caused me to have none competitive. I will be modifying my fleet this year to comply with the above proposal.

This past summer, I had originally thought lipos would drive me out of the hobby. With a stay at home wife, I didn't think I would have the money to re-power all of my boats. But I think lipos will instead keep me in the hobby. With 2 little toddlers at home, I never had time to maintain my NiMHs. So if we had a club run on Sunday, then I would have to spend Saturday rebalancing the packs, then charging them up. Trying to get a load of battery packs ready for the next day easily took most of Saturday. Getting both weekend days off to do boating activities was not possible. Parental duties came first. But now with lipos, I can charge during the week (with a balancer), and rest assured the packs (fewer packs at that) will be ready come Sunday. This would keep the wife happy.

 

[Andrewg]

Power to your arm on the LSH proposal

However, why 10AH onother classes

In a 5 lap 1 mile race a 6S 5ah boat is as fast as .45 and uses 2.2amph the packs come home tepid to just warm. You use 1 pack Barra 125 and you need at least 1521 and a 36" hull.

My concerns are:

* low C 10AH setup might be tempting but are heavy and uncompetitive compared to 5A 25C packs

* Alternatively 10A 25C packs are extra expense for little performance gain as power to weight improves marginally: A 10Ah setup above 4S require at least double the cost in cells (2Xs cost) , a step up to Schulze 32/170 (2X's the cost) to handle the current and a larger motor 1527/2215 (10-20%+ cost) and 36-40" hull (another coupel of hundred dollars) on Q mono.

Despite the significant increase in cost the power to weight improvements are small due to extra baot mass and electric rather than improving its cost to performance balance falls well behind the nitro/gas alternatives of similar performance.

The history of racing classes suggests participation increases when the real costs of performance fall to or below accepted levels eg LSH cheaper, 1/8 same performance and simialr price to nitro. At this time only a single series 5Ah setup can deliver this combination.

 

[Jim Caldwell]

Andrew,

10,000 provides headroom for the new setups because of the increased voltage under load.

No body HAS to run 10,000 MAH it says UP to 2P.

You can save the weight, no problem.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Guys,

We're getting really close on the rule proposals, it's going a bit slower than I hoped but that's okay if there's a concensus.

* low C 10AH setup might be tempting but are heavy and uncompetitive compared to 5A 25C packs

LMAO!!!! You must be kidding! Heavy and uncompetitive. :lol:

* Alternatively 10A 25C packs are extra expense for little performance gain as power to weight improves marginally: A 10Ah setup above 4S require at least double the cost in cells (2Xs cost) , a step up to Schulze 32/170 (2X's the cost) to handle the current and a larger motor 1527/2215 (10-20%+ cost) and 36-40" hull (another coupel of hundred dollars) on Q mono.

I consider a 4S2P setup a Q mono. Complete setup is comparable to a 3.5 boat in size and preformance.

Plus running a 2P setup allows you to pull only 10C frome the packs, 10C equals a much greater life span of the cells. Personnally I run 4350 cells, a 4S2P setup is 360.00 and will last well over 100 cycles.

Ask the nitro guys on the board, A GOOD 3.5 mono will run close to a G-Note.

Paul.

 

[Andrewg]

Paul

I see less weight, less cost and more power as a better deal for a modellor than nearly twice the weight, twice the cost and less power?

Specifically

A single 6S 5AH 25C pack

* weighs .726kg (1.6lbs)

* costs $US319 &

* runs from 125-100amps (125 into a turn and 100 at the end of the straight) (logged)

VS the old 20C tech 8.6AH at 10AH:

* weighs 1.4kg (3.1lbs) - heavier than 18 NiMHs

* costs $US450 &

* you say runs at 10C ie 86 amps

25C packs run at 25C, come home tepid and can be recharged 3-4 times per day.

The long term testing I have seen on the 20C cells suggests their life used, within but, at the limit of the constant C ratings is approx 125 cycles. At that stage they arent spent, capacity is down 10% and voltage by .05-.1v per cell. Some racers might prefer a new pack for a sanctioned event. The 25C's have less heat and show all the signs of being more robust and long lived.

10AH is the most expensive of all model boat technologies except turbine. Modern 5AH packs can deliver more performance at less cost than any other model power boat technology: surely that is the more attractive formula?

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Andrew,

I see less weight, less cost and more power as a better deal for a modellor than nearly twice the weight, twice the cost and less power?

What 25C cells are you using?

Paul.

 

[Andrewg]

Paul

Thunder Power eXtremes 5AH

I have to say prior to these cells I was not quite an enthusiast for lipo in boats, particularly high power boats. These cells reset the parameters within which LiPo operate

 

[Old Sloppy]

VS the old 20C tech 8.6AH at 10AH:* weighs 1.4kg (3.1lbs) - heavier than 18 NiMHs

* costs $US450 &

* you say runs at 10C ie 86 amps

10AH is the most expensive of all model boat technologies except turbine.

Andrew,

Where I live Max Amps 10 AH cells (10C) cost $50 each, 6 times $50 = $300.

Also 10C = 100 amps.

Harry :mellow:

 

[lohring]

How are you going to measure the capacity of a pack? I'm sure that there is a variation no matter what the label says. The volume (sub C)/number of cells system we currently use is easy to inspect, but has similar objections. Pack weight is fairly easy to inspect, but there must be other effective rating systems.

Lohring Miller