Lipo Lowdown From My POV.

[Darin Jordan]

neu set the 6 cells or 2S mono record.
but I don't know of any others. The rest where set by Lehner or Nemsis (at least 8 that I know of) to include the 68mph Q tunnel

Kelly... People actually have to be USING the motors in order to set records with them...

 

[brooks93]

my only point was that there are other COMPETITIVE motors out there.

 

[Darin Jordan]

my only point was that there are other COMPETITIVE motors out there.

No arguement here... h34r:

 

[brooks93]

my only point was that there are other COMPETITIVE motors out there.

No arguement here... h34r:

LOL Darin. either that or they are just really really really good sport motors

 

[T.S.Davis]

The first LiPo powered boat allowed to heat race at a NAMBA sanctioned event was June 1, 2005. It was an exhibition class at a national event. The NAMBA VP was the CD. Attendees ranged from from Ed Hughey to Ray Fuller. To imply that NAMBA just all of a sudden jumped on the LiPo train is unfair.

Almost 2 years later and we're still arguing about it. How long were we supposed to wait? Till the next type of cell came along?

Both organizations are going to have to learn to be more flexible. Technology isn't going to wait around for us to test and argue and test and bicker and test and share and test and group hug. Let innovators innovate. When they find something that works they can present it to the members. If it seems viable, the members will vote it in. That's exactly how we got LiPo incorporated.

LiPo are legal in both NAMBA and IMPBA. By the vote of the members of each organization. In NAMBA, there weren't many votes against them. The response was pretty overwhelming.

next

 

[JfromJAGs]

Terry, it would be very nice if you - as the NAMBA FE chairman - would listen more carefully to what some people here and there are trying to say.

"Overwhelming" would mean at least 90% of the votes are yes and at least 75% of the NAMBA members voted. When do we see the numbers?

Joerg

 

[T.S.Davis]

would listen more carefully to what some people here and there are trying to say.

Joerg, which "some" should we listen to? I've listened and listened and listened again. I don't agree and agree or agree again. We've all been listening and not coming to the same conlcusions that you have. I understand that you're team is the fastest, does it's homework, and puts it on the water. I mean you no disrespect. Should I be listening to your expert opinion or the opinion of guys that travel to mutliple races? Should I listen to guys that are running the cells? How about the guys that hold as more records as your team. Should I dissregard the opinions of the average guy that says to me "I'm sick to death of buying these batteries that start to die off the minute I use them". Whose expert opinion should prevail?

The fact that some of us don't reach the same conclusion that you do does not mean necessarily that we are NOT listening. Or that we aren't listening carefully.

We let the members that vote decide if they were ready. We don't even get 50% of the US polutaion to vote for president. Are you assuming that those that did not vote would have voted against the change? Why is this so difficult for you to accept?

To continue to deride the decision of the voters implies that the they are ignorant, been missled or just simply too stupid to understand the ramifications. I refuse to accept any of those notions.

 

[brooks93]

QUICK GET THE STICKS

WE GOT A LIVE ONE HERE

 

[Darin Jordan]

QUICK GET THE STICKS
WE GOT A LIVE ONE HERE

 

[JfromJAGs]

Terry, you and some others here are mixing general and very basic concerns with my personal approach to model boats. You think in the wrong direction and should stop doing so.

These general concerns are based on physical considerations about electric boats and battery-, motor- and controller-technology. They are for sure influenced by my personal experience of 15+ years of racing electric model boats - most of the time with a semi professional attitude - but are also combined with an engineer education. I can back up my concerns with (simple) calculation and also real life LiPo testing experience of myself and others (bench and racing boats). Do you have ever seen discharge curves of 5000mAh LiPos and NiMH's at 170-180A or higher?

You whipe all of the concerns away like nothing - but I know I do reach through to some people. To some faster, to some slower.

And as you mentioned past election. I'm sorry, but neither the past US nor the past German elections were anything close to "overwhelming". Very low participation and very close results (<< 1% difference). That's within expected noise. Vote again on the next day and you have a different result.

More and more people don't vote because they think all choises are wrong. I know some people who did not vote on LiPo's because they wanted them but not like it was proposed - so either way it was wrong.

Yes - because it allwed 2p.

No - because that whould mean no to LiPo.

Not voting - because it would not change anything and would allow any of the wrong outcomes.

I think it's the resonsibility of the representatives of an organisation (or state) to make proposals in a way that everyone at least finds a choise he agrees with. In this case you mixed the LiPo proposal out of 3-4 individual proposals. You already knew some concerns when this happened (autumn 2006). But it was all ignored. If you are so sure about your ideas and understanding, why did'nt you allow different choises? Why was there no choise to have LiPo and NiMH 1p only (like it used to be)? Why was there no choise to have a phase in period? When you assembled the proposal, you knew people would like to have these choises.

A question: if I would sent in a proposal to change it all back to 1p and 5000mAh, both LiPo and NiMH. Would you support this? When would people be able to vote?

Joerg

 

[brooks93]

A question: if I would sent in a proposal to change it all back to 1p and 5000mAh, both LiPo and NiMH. Would you support this? When would people be able to vote

he doesn't have to support it. He doesn't say what get voted on or not. if you have one send it in to your district of get one that will submit it for you. Then it goes to a vote

 

[Darin Jordan]

Joerg,

If you have something better... please put it forth... If it's better, or more accepted, I'm sure we'll find out...

Refresh my memory again on exactly WHY we need BOTH Paralleling limits AND Mah limits?? Wouldn't limiting Mah by weight or ??? be enough?

The reason I ask is very legit... For example, MaxAmps sells a ready to run 7.4V 2S Saddlepack arrangement that is either 4300mah or 5000mah... (you can get either...)... This would be a PERFECT replacement for some of our smaller boats that are made to run with saddled pack configurations...

However, this pack is made up in a 2S5P configuration... or something to that effect... Basically, and bunch of small, likely cheap cells, paralleled together to get the capacitity up to 5000mah...

If there was a weight/mah limit, WHY would we need to restrict the ability to parallel? If the available amps are directly related to the C rating of the cells, and the capacity of the cells, then who cares how many are in Parallel??? Is there a valid reason??

Just trying to get a clear picture of the alternatives....

Thanks,

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Guys,

Let it go already. At the time trials some things that happened really opened my eyes to lipo use in model boats. The biggest eye openner was N2 mono, this is a class I really don't run in but I put in a boat just for grins. I ran a 2S2P 4350 20C setup with a Nue motor and a Cuda 125. I didn't need the 2P setup because for 4 passes per session I was pulling around 2200 mah out of the packs. 2P gave me great balance in the boat, it weighed 4 pounds 7 ounces when it hit the water and allowed me to run in some pretty choppy water. It wasn't the batteries or speedo holding me back from higher speeds, it was the motor. I had maxxed out what the motor would give up! That is something I never would have guessed, the boat simply would go no faster no mater what I tried.

Bottom line, "on paper" it should have gone faster but in "reality" it was what it was. Simply put if you don't have a huge box of motors, props and time your only going to get so much in return from the setups. Sure, there may be a few guys that go for broke but they won't have a large impact on the racing part of the hobby as a whole.

The only thing I really don't agree with Joerg on is a 200MPH boat being to dangerous to time trial. It's all about speed in a TT event and either you put up or shut up, there is no second place. I'm not interested in a 200MPH strait liner but I am after a 100 MPH heat racing hydro.

Paul.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Guys,

The other thing I forgot to mention was in T-Mono, I've said this before but I run my heat racing boats at the TTs without any changes. I was able to run in some really nasty water with no problems what so ever. I could easily run 5 laps around the oval and go another 3 passes at the straight line pulling about 5000mah out of the 10S2P 4350 20C packs. I managed to get both the straight line and oval records, my straight line pass at 72mph was okay for a heat racer but under 12 seconds a lap is what really mattered to me running a 20 pound mono. Ron Green had me covered six ways to Sunday with his T-Mono straight liner in speed. The one pass I saw put him at a comfortable 75MPH which I couldn't have matched with the Hurricane I was running. On top of that I belive he was running sub-cs!

Again this was another example of my boat being maxxed out but in this case it was the boat and prop combo that was holding me back from higher speeds. Going from a 60mm prop to a 65mm prop (this was pretty funny to see) caused the boat to lay over on it's side for the whole pass. It simply wouldn't stay on the keel. Double the power does not mean anything to me, there's way more going on with these boats to get them motivated than just tossing batteries at them.

Paul.

 

[T.S.Davis]

I think it's the resonsibility of the representatives of an organisation (or state) to make proposals in a way that everyone at least finds a choise he agrees with.

The representatives of NAMBA don't make proposals. Plus, I wasn't elected to represent anyone. NAMBA is member based. The members write proposals. I would hope that if I squashed a proposal that I didn't agree with that I would be fired because it's not my job. I don't have that kind of power.

That proposal had choices. A mah limit or no mah limit. A parrallel limit or no parrallel limit.

I'm so done with this. I don't know why I let myself get worked up again.

 

[JfromJAGs]

@Terry, maybe a more basic question. What's the purpose and duty of an electric chairman? I don't want to make you sick, I would just like to understand why you are so repellent to these concerns.

And you didn't mean it serious, that there were choises, right? It was "2p" or "unlimited p" when it used to be "1p". 1p was no choise. It was 10Ah/12Ah or unlimited Ah, but we did'nt have more than 4.2Ah so far. 4.5Ah or 5Ah was no choise.

@Paul, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. I think we agree that you were faster using 10s2p or 2s2p than you ever did with NiMH's. It speaks for Ron (and Mark F.) and his boats that he had a faster pass on NiMH's. And what you saw with the motors, is't that what I'm saying? Now, as the batteries are stronger, you need stronger motors.

@Darin, if I would write a proposal, it would be basically based on pack weight and voltage for LiPo's - and the old system for NiMH's.

I would like a 1p (or maybe a 2p max) limit, as this would make it easy: just count the cells - like NiMH's. I do know that there are smaller cells available which could also work ok in parallel (like 5p of 1000mAh cells), but concerning cost/quality-ratio and possibility of error and failure, I would not like to see it. It could be something to vote though.

Joerg

 

[topfuel443]

from someone who is trying to learn a little about FE, and has read every post in this now pointless thread.

~James

 

[Andrewg]

PMSL

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Joerg,

@Paul, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. I think we agree that you were faster using 10s2p or 2s2p than you ever did with NiMH's.

Not at all true. When I ran NiMH cells my T/Open mono would have run every bit of 70 plus. In heat racing trim the boat was running in the low to mid 60s and a small prop change was all that was needed to break 70. It was also half the weight of the boat I set the records with in Valdosta.

It speaks for Ron (and Mark F.) and his boats that he had a faster pass on NiMH's.

You can't even compare my boats with Ron's and Mark's boats. Cripes, you just don't get it do you? Their preformance was great for Nimh cells but they run dedicated straight line boats. I din't want to take anything away from those guys but there is no way they could have ran in the water/wind I was. Ron tried and couldn't keep the boat on the water. Another N2 boat tried and could keep the boat on the water.

. And what you saw with the motors, is't that what I'm saying? Now, as the batteries are stronger, you need stronger motors.

Belive me I had a strong motor, it just hit it's limits. And like I said above, you'll need a big box of hulls, motors and props if you want to max out combos. I don't see that happenning with the average racer.

James, thanks for the grins!

Paul.

 

[Kris Flynn]

Sorry Its getting a little off sopic again