Is the OB class doomed?

[RaceMechaniX]

Out of all the regular race classes for FE, 4 cell tunnels are probably the one class that truly cannot use the power available in the latest P-Ltd motors. Hull lengths and known designs simply don't make a good combo when you can put 45 engine power on a 20 size hull. If you want to keep entry costs low and fun levels high what about suggesting a very limited power combo like a Raider 150 and Leopard 4074. This is very close to the A OPC/B Stock power level and is available for $214 on OSE as a combo. https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=ose-leo4074-combo Conversion kits are available to use K&B, Lawless, OS lowers with an electric motor on top. A decent battery would be all that's needed and prop recommendation would be very similar to what works well with 21 nitro power.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Here is my 4S1P outboard tunnel setup. This setup is about a 4kph (2-3mph average speed) off Darin Jordan's 2lap world record boat, which is the fastest official outboard tunnel over 2laps (1/3 mile laps). Kris, it is perfectly okay with me if you acknowledge the fact that this record was set with a LYNX designed by Van's Racing.

Full setup info is in the title of the castle data log

I would call this a Fantastic heat racing setup...boat is pretty stable and happy. Add another 10kph (which would be easy) and things change quickly).

As you can see, the amp draw is not that high. You could prop down, or run lower KV motors and drop the amps considerably.

Carl, is your drive toward outboard riggers (rather than tunnel hulls) because they are easy to build? Cheaper to build? Just different?

I am only trying to offer up another option for outboards. My model can be setup Nitro or FE by changing out two parts. I did this so both classes are included. I am not taking sides and saying it's FE or NITRO. I am actually supporting both. What type power people choose to out on it will be their choice. Yes, they are easier to build, Yes, they will be cheaper, Yes, it is different and as outboards go, it will be the fastest class of outboards you could choose to race whether it be Nitro or FE. We need EXCITEMENT in outboards.

Yes, I built tunnels for 38 years and I saw a lot during that time good and bad. I had to come to terms with what direction things were going in. It wasn't easy to sell my molds and stop building tunnels boats. It was time for somebody else to build them. My being a fiberglass competition model supplier days are over. I may supply these kits for awhile because they will not demand as much of my time like building tunnel boats did. My plans are to make $0 to supply them. Then I will likely sell the files and BOM to someone who will build them.

I feel like I need to offer up something that may help because whether people want to admit it or not outboards are in dire need of a big change. Something has to change or be added to turn this around. What needs to be realized is that if we can get an FE outboard class to blow up like the 3.5 tunnels did back in the hey days, along with that excitement comes a lot of the other classes of outboards.

I would hope that you nitro guys would not feel like that if FE takes off that your nitro classes will be gone because if you still have engines you can still race them. So far this idea and model has not been very well received. I am not sure why because its for both classes. I guess we are all just old and set in our ways.

Let's try to be open minded and accept the fact that The Outboard Hydro is the best choice for "FE" outboards. Run what you want but FE outboards are coming so we might as well have models that are best suited for them.

If anyone has an idea that may help promote OUTBOARDS, let's hear it. That's what this discussion is for.



ing the limits of this design though, so hopefully some things in the works help people with the net level of cheap hull to move into.

 

[Rod Fonda]

Im new and younger-ish and I agree nitro is best. frustrating at times but way more fun. I try to get some of these youtubers that have 109 FE boats to open up to gas or nitro and its like herding cats. I fear this hobby is about done altogether cause almost nobody under 50 seems interested in clubs and racing. let alone nitro.

Sadly,these days,less of the young folk are working in the metal machining and mechanic trades,which I notice a lot of guys here come from.I myself a toolsetter/toolmaker .Modern fathers don't seem to have the fascination for engines,cars,boats,planes,like the old dads, ,like my father,who passed on to me, his love of engines,motorcycles,cars and planes.
It's also surprising today,with the internet and 100s of videos on Ytube on model boats.Back in the day,model boat racing and racers were like a Masonic secret society and not advertised or just unknown to the average guy.You basically had to come across a guy in daily life,or a guy who knew a guy into boats.The aroma of nitro fuel in the morning and the sound of the engine is addictive lol

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Out of all the regular race classes for FE, 4 cell tunnels are probably the one class that truly cannot use the power available in the latest P-Ltd motors. Hull lengths and known designs simply don't make a good combo when you can put 45 engine power on a 20 size hull. If you want to keep entry costs low and fun levels high what about suggesting a very limited power combo like a Raider 150 and Leopard 4074. This is very close to the A OPC/B Stock power level and is available for $214 on OSE as a combo. https://www.offshoreelectrics.com/proddetail.php?prod=ose-leo4074-combo Conversion kits are available to use K&B, Lawless, OS lowers with an electric motor on top. A decent battery would be all that's needed and prop recommendation would be very similar to what works well with 21 nitro power.

I agree. We should have an Outboard FE class that is fairly equal to 3.5cc stock power (as you suggested) regardless of hull type and another one that is comparable to a modified class regardless of hull type. If you want an open class then have that too. Clubs can make this happen with very little effort.

 

[John Andresen]

Sadly,these days,less of the young folk are working in the metal machining and mechanic trades,which I notice a lot of guys here come from.I myself a toolsetter/toolmaker .Modern fathers don't seem to have the fascination for engines,cars,boats,planes,like the old dads, ,like my father,who passed on to me, his love of engines,motorcycles,cars and planes.
It's also surprising today,with the internet and 100s of videos on Ytube on model boats.Back in the day,model boat racing and racers were like a Masonic secret society and not advertised or just unknown to the average guy.You basically had to come across a guy in daily life,or a guy who knew a guy into boats.The aroma of nitro fuel in the morning and the sound of the engine is addictive lol

Agree (almost) completely.

My late Father was a Tool and Die Maker for the Auto Industry in Detroit. I use his machine design tool to sketch, prototype, design and build my tunnels. All from wood. I’ve build a tunnel from a PTI kit to see how others have done it. Also, I just had a Zippkits G30 delivered to build to see how that design varies from my kitchen top tunnel designs. Also have seen Kris’ Dragon design, which look awesome btw.

At the end of the day, its not about me. It’s about all of us. We need to find ways to encourage others to pick up tools and dream.

 

[Mark Poole ModVP]

A well set up nitro OB rigger can be a bad fast boat. One of the first races I went to was the 1990 Orlando Winter Nats. A guy had a sundowner OB rigger and competed in B hydro class with the inboards and ended up in third place. The little boat was fast and reliable. What impressed me was that it did not have a tuned pipe, instead it had an exhaust throttle.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

A well set up nitro OB rigger can be a bad fast boat. One of the first races I went to was the 1990 Orlando Winter Nats. A guy had a sundowner OB rigger and competed in B hydro class with the inboards and ended up in third place. The little boat was fast and reliable. What impressed me was that it did not have a tuned pipe, instead it had an exhaust throttle.

That was us.

 

[Carl Van Houten]

I got chewed out this morning by Mic. He has been mad at me ever since I showed him a picture of one of my project boats. He said that he is on fire and out in his shop working like a mad man with dust flying everywhere. This is what is needed in outboards. There was a time when it seemed like everybody was building models and making changes testing and tinkering. Mic loves the Canard style boats. I do too and have designed a few over the years. When I finish this O/B hydro project I will dabble around with this one some more. It's strictly a SAW design. FUN STUFF! ARE ALL YALL DEAD OUT THERE?

 

[Grimracer]

Carl, you disappeared for almost a year doing gas sport hydro stuff from what I remember...

You coming back to outboards?

Grim

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Carl, you disappeared for almost a year doing gas sport hydro stuff from what I remember...

You coming back to outboards?

Grim

Yes, I designed a couple of gas sport hydros for my friends and they are doing well with them. I designed a couple of gas O/B tunnels boats too. My New 470 O/B Tunnel (The 2023 model) won it's class in SOWEGA a couple of months ago and my 450 O/B tunnel is good for a Q-FE and or a 1". Those are outboards... LOL

But I did sell all my Nova Rossi engines and most all my nitro related molds. I still have some older stuff and one new design 7.5cc O/B tunnel that I'm playing around with. I have molds for it but I won't ever build them. Like I said, I'm done with production fiberglass boats.

The O/B hydro kits should be interesting. A couple of them will show up in Brandon soon and maybe I can get one or two in the Katy Club and Ron wants to build the nitro version for a record trial and who knows maybe they will catch on. They are outboards.

 

[David Krienke]

My next build I think is a zip 21 rigger. I really want to try one out. This is a great thread. Love that canard hull.

 

[Alan Elzer]

I got chewed out this morning by Mic. He has been mad at me ever since I showed him a picture of one of my project boats. He said that he is on fire and out in his shop working like a mad man with dust flying everywhere. This is what is needed in outboards. There was a time when it seemed like everybody was building models and making changes testing and tinkering. Mic loves the Canard style boats. I do too and have designed a few over the years. When I finish this O/B hydro project I will dabble around with this one some more. It's strictly a SAW design. FUN STUFF! ARE ALL YALL DEAD OUT THERE?View attachment 328353

Beautiful Carl you are the man !! Nice sticker on calling, I like it..

 

[Carl Van Houten]

I let a friend of mine have that boat. He wanted to do more testing with it. It is only good for straight line speed trials. I will be sending it to him soon. I have to record some changes I made to it before it leaves so I can update the files. That is a laser cut kit boat so I can build another one but I want to see what he can do with it before I have any more made.

 

[LohringMiller]

Still the NAMBA SAW 3.5 outboard hydro record holder since 2005 at 81.5 mph. Someone must have a faster boat by now.

Lohring Miller

 

[Alan Elzer]

Still the NAMBA SAW 3.5 outboard hydro record holder since 2005 at 81.5 mph. Someone must have a faster boat by now.

Lohring Miller

View attachment 328400

That looks like an inb mounted as an outb setup?

 

[Carl Van Houten]

The beauty of the canard is the lack of frontal drag. In the 80-90 mph range is where it should shine but a blow off at that speed still breaks stuff.

 

[Mike Hughes]

That looks like an inb mounted as an outb setup?

Yes it is an inboard motor on a custom outboard steering unit. Unlike IMPBA, the motor turns and steers the boat. Michael and I had a discussion before he built that boat on what makes it an outboard. His steering is done completely different than all standard outboard motors these days. There is a cable that runs in the deck section in a loop. The end of the outboard unit is clamped to this cable as it crossed near the back of the deck section. Rod Geraghty did a very similar thing back in the 90s ish. A lot of insperation came from that boat.
Mike

 

[Carl Van Houten]

All exotic out of the box models have their good and bad points. The IMPBA allows the outboard hydro class the option to lock the engine down and turn the boat with a rudder or to use the engine to turn the boat. Both are legal in the IMPBA.

How this optional steering setup was brought up came from when the O/B hydro came onto the scene not many really realized that some were turning the engine for steering and others were locking the engine and using a rudder. Nobody was able to agree on on what was fair and even if it was an advantage one way or another.

People were talking about it for a while before it went before the board and by the time the question came to the board both types of steering systems were being used
and nobody wanted to change and plenty of whining was going on about it, imagine that... Did modelers really cry whine and back then? LOL

The reason the O/B hydro was on the hot plate was due to its ability to run against the inboards (with no pipe) and give the piped inboards a run for their money. The inboard guys were going crazy and being beat by a $89.00 K&B Outboard with NO PIPE was like being beat up by your sister!

After hearing all the reasons for both setups it was determined that neither had an advantage on the other and to make everybody happy both options were granted as legal.

I turn the engine to steer my canard but not to please anyone. I just did it because it was the quickest way to get it to the pond to test it that first day. Locking the engine down and turning the boat with a rudder is definitely the best set up but if it were to get into the high 80's I would want it to be legal for both IMPBA and NAMBA.

My canard is 36 inches long and weighs just under 2-1/2 pounds. Notice that there are no canard winglets on the nose. If you want a fast canard, you must fly the nose. Aerodynamics help with this. This model flies the nose about 1/8 to 1/4" above the water at speed. That's my favorite part.

 

[Rod Fonda]

All exotic out of the box models have their good and bad points. The IMPBA allows the outboard hydro class the option to lock the engine down and turn the boat with a rudder or to use the engine to turn the boat. Both are legal in the IMPBA.

How this optional steering setup was brought up came from when the O/B hydro came onto the scene not many really realized that some were turning the engine for steering and others were locking the engine and using a rudder. Nobody was able to agree on on what was fair and even if it was an advantage one way or another.

People were talking about it for a while before it went before the board and by the time the question came to the board both types of steering systems were being used
and nobody wanted to change and plenty of whining was going on about it, imagine that... Did modelers really cry whine and back then? LOL

The reason the O/B hydro was on the hot plate was due to its ability to run against the inboards (with no pipe) and give the piped inboards a run for their money. The inboard guys were going crazy and being beat by a $89.00 K&B Outboard with NO PIPE was like being beat up by your sister!

After hearing all the reasons for both setups it was determined that neither had an advantage on the other and to make everybody happy both options were granted as legal.

I turn the engine to steer my canard but not to please anyone. I just did it because it was the quickest way to get it to the pond to test it that first day. Locking the engine down and turning the boat with a rudder is definitely the best set up but if it were to get into the high 80's I would want it to be legal for both IMPBA and NAMBA.

My canard is 36 inches long and weighs just under 2-1/2 pounds. Notice that there are no canard winglets on the nose. If you want a fast canard, you must fly the nose. Aerodynamics help with this. This model flies the nose about 1/8 to 1/4" above the water at speed. That's my favorite part.

Interesting,I was assuming the rear wings would add some lift and take some or the rearward/engine weight with the nose just skimming across the water.Ive noticed other canard designs have the rear wings attached to the sponsons, further back towards the transom

 

[Carl Van Houten]

The nose ski will only touch the water if the boat becomes unstable. The placement of the wing, its angle and lift it gives are critical to the speed you are looking for. Lift at the very rear (Transom area) causes lots of issues that a canard design can't overcome. I would say if you are thinking of building a carnard never put the wing at the rear of the boat from what I have learned.