IMPBA proposal

[Doug Smock]

Is there any other f/e guy's posting on here or is this just a waste of time , i stopped reading a few pages back , if it's only one or 2 there just making it look bad for all the others.
This is getting pretty stale

Yes sir it is a waste of time. Somebody should pull the Safety Loop on this thread. :huh:

Doug

 

[carlnoki]

YO BILL;

nitro is very much used in the boating world outside the U.S.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!!

and everyone (maybe even Dave Marles over in England) remember the saying your parents might have told you when you were little?

"AN OUNCE OF PREVENTION IS WORTH A POUND OF CURE" Think about it.

carl cisneros

 

[Peter Zicha]

Not trying to pick at you but I would not think your boats would hit over a 100 amps on the motors. You can't put a winding in a motor the size you run to carry that kind of amps. Remember I am in the electric motor repair business and we rewind motors all the time. And I will be happy to help you all learn about motors and how to control them.

So Mark what TYPE of motors do you rewind , Educate me please . I have been messing with electric systems for 35 years and work on electric vehicles for a living , so being in the electric motor trade like you am going to confirm for you a brushless system can easily peak to almost 300 amps momentarily , the two FE combos you see here are both capable of 250+ spikes , both systems can easily push the 10hp envelope . The safety loop thing I can give a crap about since I only run for sport but your less than educated arrogant comment got under my skin , you talk like none of the FE crowd has a clue as to what they are doing

 

[DaveMarles]

Europe prohibits the use of nitromethane in model fuels due to the hazardous nature of nitromethane.

Europe prohibits nitro huh? Nobody told me.

All FAI fuels are 0% nitromethane. At least in airplanes. I'll grant that I do not know if that extends to boats.

Bill, Not wanting to appear facetious, but I thought we were discussing boats.

FYI..... FAI fuel, (no nitro and 80/20 methanol/castor) is in place to give a level playing field. The percentage of people running FAI fuel in boats in Europe is probably 0.001 or less. As you mention aircraft, I would estimate the percentage using FAI fuel to be much less than that.

Dave

 

[bzubee]

If the post is not shut down it should at least be moved to the FE section.

 

[Flyguy55]

I don't feel strongly either way on this issue yet , but I'm not looking forward to figuring out how to install then in all my boats.

I started racing boats again neatly 4 years ago after a long layoff. At that time there was a similar debate on Lipos being allowed . I raced nitro for about 20 years and was an officer in NAMBA or APBA for most of those years so I had a little experience with boat racing and rule making . FE looked interesting and I started racing again .As I remember the lipo safety debate was a big issue that went on and on something like the safety loop. Mostly Nitro guys thought they were dangerous and had all kind of rule ideas. Buckets of sand required in the pits, fire proof safes to charge in , fire proof surfaces to charge them on , charging tables sepraterated from the pits . The list went on and on. All good intended , including the ones who wanted them banned .Cars and houses burnt to the ground was forecast. Remember ? Most of the information on lipo safety turned out to be wrong .

Lipos were voted in , with no special safety rules , and are commonly used very successfully . The batteries have gotten better, also chargers , balancers ect. The data base has expanded greatly .I haven't seen or heard of any incidents except when some one does something stupid. You cant fix stupid.

Some good nitro and gas racers even run lipos in their TX and RX packs.

I think history might be repeating itself .

I'm not sure safety is first. Common sense should be .

Dick Roberts

 

[jevmax]

Reading through this string of posts it seems that the primary concern is that a retrieve boat driver might pick up an electric boat and the prop could start spinning. Isn't it much more of a concern when a co-driver/pit man picks up a fuel boat in the hot pits and the prop is spinning. He then has to walk through a group of people and go down to the waters edge and launch the boat, all with the engine running and the prop spinning. Fuel powered boats could overcome that unsafe aspect of racing if they simply used a clutch.

Being a retrieve boat driver at a gas boat race can be additionally hazardous due to the fact that you are picking up a boat with some exposed metal component parts hot enough to seriously burn you instantly. You don't have that worry with the electrics.

Does the AMA require a removeable power loop device on racing electric airplanes?

Just some food for thought.

 

[BACKEMF]

I have an easy solution to the problem . upon retreival of the electric boat place it upside down in the retrieve boat with a water soaked rag on the prop, which several could be just laying in the boat . If the motor starts on it's own it will just overload the motor , burst into flames and be thrown back in the water to extinguish itself . Problem solved with out any rule making .Done Deal .

Pretty evil post, I would never have an attitude like that toward someones nitro or fuel boat, jeese...

A little knowledge to some is obviously very dan gerous but, allot more knowledge will eventually set you free from you FE headaches.

We're willing to learn your game, please try to reciprocate.

 

[PHM Racing]

Reading through this string of posts it seems that the primary concern is that a retrieve boat driver might pick up an electric boat and the prop could start spinning. Isn't it much more of a concern when a co-driver/pit man picks up a fuel boat in the hot pits and the prop is spinning. He then has to walk through a group of people and go down to the waters edge and launch the boat, all with the engine running and the prop spinning. Fuel powered boats could overcome that unsafe aspect of racing if they simply used a clutch.

First the pit man now's the boat is running , there is no guessing , like on an electric boat that mite start at anytime , and second i have never heard or seen anyone run into someone else in the pit area and hurt someone

Being a retrieve boat driver at a gas boat race can be additionally hazardous due to the fact that you are picking up a boat with some exposed metal component parts hot enough to seriously burn you instantly. You don't have that worry with the electrics.

[b] With those parts exposed you no where to pick up the boat and where not to , and it won't start up on it's on , like an electric boat can , and that exposed metal on an electric boat can do alot of damage to a person not expecting it yes i'm talking about the prop[/b]

Does the AMA require a removeable power loop device on racing electric airplanes? What does airplane's have anything to do with a boating forum :blink:

Just some food for thought. I think you've been feed

 

[jevmax]

Reading through this string of posts it seems that the primary concern is that a retrieve boat driver might pick up an electric boat and the prop could start spinning. Isn't it much more of a concern when a co-driver/pit man picks up a fuel boat in the hot pits and the prop is spinning. He then has to walk through a group of people and go down to the waters edge and launch the boat, all with the engine running and the prop spinning. Fuel powered boats could overcome that unsafe aspect of racing if they simply used a clutch.
First the pit man now's the boat is running , there is no guessing , like on an electric boat that mite start at anytime , and second i have never heard or seen anyone run into someone else in the pit area and hurt someone You are incorrect. There have been many injuries from props in the pits and during launching over the years.

Being a retrieve boat driver at a gas boat race can be additionally hazardous due to the fact that you are picking up a boat with some exposed metal component parts hot enough to seriously burn you instantly. You don't have that worry with the electrics.

[b] With those parts exposed you no where to pick up the boat and where not to , and it won't start up on it's on , like an electric boat can , and that exposed metal on an electric boat can do alot of damage to a person not expecting it yes i'm talking about the prop[/b] Your are correct here. With fuel boats, the retrieve boat driver knows that certain parts are hot, and so he avoids coming in contact with them. With an electric boat, you can simply avoid putting your self in proximity to the prop. It's just that simple.

Does the AMA require a removeable power loop device on racing electric airplanes? What does airplane's have anything to do with a boating forum :blink: The similarities are that high powered fast electric airplanes pose the same, or even greater, threat from an unexpected start up and spinning prop. It's a good analogy.

Just some food for thought. I think you've been feed

My intention with that post was to offer some constructive input on the subject.

 

[drwayne]

In Australia it is mandatory for an FE boat to have fitted an external means of disconnecting the battery.

I use a single 8G loop between the battery and esc which pokes out of the deck on a 2" extension to 8mm plugs.

Doesnt matter what the water logged Rx says.. the safety loop severs all power to the prop.

Identified by either an orange or blue triangle.

All our rescue guys have been informed of the purpose and use of loop.

And we race gas, nitro and FE at most every event...we're good at multi-tasking safety regimes.

 

[AlanN]

Jevmax,

I beleive that the largest problem here is actually is offering some logical rational alternatives and getting B-slapped back in the face.

Jevmax stated a decent propsition to solving a concern and that's what he got. This is not the proper way to discuss any matter. This thread is embarrassing for a fellow boater.

 

[PHM Racing]

Jevmax,I beleive that the largest problem here is actually is offering some logical rational alternatives and getting B-slapped back in the face.

Jevmax stated a decent propsition to solving a concern and that's what he got. This is not the proper way to discuss any matter. This thread is embarrassing for a fellow boater.

Did you read his post , to me it seems all trew his post he's putting fuel boat down , i didnt see him trying to resolve the electric thing , just talked about the fuel boats and how unsafe they are , the only poeple that are unsafe around fuel boats has to be a JARHEAD

I'm outa here , this really is a waste of time , i am sorry if i offended anyone and i appoligize to them

Seeya

 

[Andy Greene]

Jevmax,I beleive that the largest problem here is actually is offering some logical rational alternatives and getting B-slapped back in the face.

Jevmax stated a decent propsition to solving a concern and that's what he got. This is not the proper way to discuss any matter. This thread is embarrassing for a fellow boater.

Your right about that, If I still ran F/E I would be embarrassed as well.

Tell me where in Jay's statements does he bring

"logical rational alternatives" and "a decent proposition to solving a concern" into this thread Alan ??? Or would that be the safety concerns about carrying a running boat- that YOU KNOW DAMN GOOD AND WELL IS RUNNING into the loop??

I'm done replying to this thread as it seems some things NEVER change in relation to F/E vs GAS-NITRO - (the source of the whole problem IMHO ... the VS thing!!!!

WE ALL RUN RC BOATS- NO MATTER WHAT POWERS THEM-

GET ALONG FOR ONCE !!!! GEEZE !!!!!!!!!!!!

I have, as many know, tried my best to keep the lines between F/E and the others options most choose to power their boats with- wide open in the area that I race, but the constant tit for tat- and back and forth BS between what is about essentially the same damn thing makes me sick. I'm done, I will field my boat with the power I choose(fail safe in place) and whatever the rest of you want to fight about- HAVE AT IT ......

Andy

 

[TERMINATOR]

Jevmax,I beleive that the largest problem here is actually is offering some logical rational alternatives and getting B-slapped back in the face.

Jevmax stated a decent propsition to solving a concern and that's what he got. This is not the proper way to discuss any matter. This thread is embarrassing for a fellow boater.

Your right about that, If I still ran F/E I would be embarrassed as well.

Tell me where in Jay's statements does he bring

"logical rational alternatives" and "a decent proposition to solving a concern" into this thread Alan ??? Or would that be the safety concerns about carrying a running boat- that YOU KNOW DAMN GOOD AND WELL IS RUNNING into the loop??

I'm done replying to this thread as it seems some things NEVER change in relation to F/E vs GAS-NITRO - (the source of the whole problem IMHO ... the VS thing!!!!

WE ALL RUN RC BOATS- NO MATTER WHAT POWERS THEM-

GET ALONG FOR ONCE !!!! GEEZE !!!!!!!!!!!!

I have, as many know, tried my best to keep the lines between F/E and the others options most choose to power their boats with- wide open in the area that I race, but the constant tit for tat- and back and forth BS between what is about essentially the same damn thing makes me sick. I'm done, I will field my boat with the power I choose(fail safe in place) and whatever the rest of you want to fight about- HAVE AT IT ......

Andy

andy i agree with you and mike there on that, and i have never seen a "hot pit" that is controlled properly have "people just standing around" ..have any of you? and my stand on fe racing is , it needs to be kept to itself.. i dont care to hear about it, dont want to do it, and really dont give a damn about it. i like the sound and the smell of the nitro and gas boats , and i firmly belive that batteries are for 2 things, radios and them thinkgs that make women happy ..in fact i fly palnes as well and have seen a serious accident at our field that hurt a guy really bad "caused by a faulty speed controller" :angry: when a plane is running with a nitro or gas motor you know it and are aware of it.. when them stupid electric planes are sitting there armed ..you have no idea what they will do..and to take this one step further .. if i get another model airplane magazine filled with them stupid electric planes il be tossing my subscription in the trash can.. not saying i dont have a battery powered boat, my kids and i have them proboat mini v boats for fun in hotel pools when we go places.. and they are fun.

tk

 

[Tom Foley]

Reading through this string of posts it seems that the primary concern is that a retrieve boat driver might pick up an electric boat and the prop could start spinning. Isn't it much more of a concern when a co-driver/pit man picks up a fuel boat in the hot pits and the prop is spinning. He then has to walk through a group of people and go down to the waters edge and launch the boat, all with the engine running and the prop spinning. Fuel powered boats could overcome that unsafe aspect of racing if they simply used a clutch.
Being a retrieve boat driver at a gas boat race can be additionally hazardous due to the fact that you are picking up a boat with some exposed metal component parts hot enough to seriously burn you instantly. You don't have that worry with the electrics.

Does the AMA require a removeable power loop device on racing electric airplanes?

Just some food for thought.

OMG stop the insanity !! Just figure out how to launch the damn boat safely and DO IT ! In 28 years of racing the only accident that I was close to was some moron that tried to launch a rigger by grabbing the prop . There is a term used in aviation called " situational awareness " GET SOME !!!!!!!

 

[Mark Bullard]

Not trying to pick at you but I would not think your boats would hit over a 100 amps on the motors. You can't put a winding in a motor the size you run to carry that kind of amps. Remember I am in the electric motor repair business and we rewind motors all the time. And I will be happy to help you all learn about motors and how to control them.

So Mark what TYPE of motors do you rewind , Educate me please . I have been messing with electric systems for 35 years and work on electric vehicles for a living , so being in the electric motor trade like you am going to confirm for you a brushless system can easily peak to almost 300 amps momentarily , the two FE combos you see here are both capable of 250+ spikes , both systems can easily push the 10hp envelope . The safety loop thing I can give a crap about since I only run for sport but your less than educated arrogant comment got under my skin , you talk like none of the FE crowd has a clue as to what they are doing

I am not trying to come off like that. I grew up in a electric motor repair shop. The motors we work on are the size you run in your boats up to about 10,000hp in house and have work on up 20,000hp on site. We work on AC, DC, truck motors for lifts like you work with brushless dc motors, motors for CNC and robots which are mostly of the brushless design with a few more parts like feedback and position.

The motors you have in your lifts are mostly DC and very high current. This is the only way of getting the hp in the small package. I have been seeing a few new setups of the brushless designs in lift motors in the past few years.

A brushless design is very much different from a DC motor. They are 3 phase motors with magnetic rotors. This is how they make there torque in a small package. The peak current we talk about is from the peak voltage at the top of the sine wave and only happens but for a spilt second. On a 4 pole motor it will only happen two times on each phase per mechincal rotation. If we name our phases A, B, C the A phase will peak and then 120 degrees electricaly, 90 degrees mechincal the B phase will peak. The same will happen for the C phase. So in a 4 pole motor the motor will make two 360 degrees electrical rotations to one 360 degrees mechincal rotation. This is true in any 3 phase electric motor but the degrees change to different degrees in different pole motors.

With this said it shows that there is a different in peak current and running current

 

[DPeterson]

READ CAREFULLY AS I HAVE THE SOLUTION

The problem here in my opinion is not the safety loop issue. It is the manner in which a safety issue is being proposed by nitro/gas racers with little to no electric boat experience, knowledge or correct information.

It is clear that Electric racers has some issues to discuss and then act upon. It also clear that Nitro/Gas racers have their own issues to addess.

Who ever started this mixed electric and nitro/gas events should have their head examined. It is a mix that is headed no where. Electric racers dislike nitro/gas and nitro/gas racers dislikes electric. Furthermore, this mix will only continue, until one day the nitro/gas community gets tired of being lapped continually by electrics and decide to split the power groups up anyway.

THE SOLUTION; KEEP THE ELECTRIC SEPERATED FROM THE NITRO/GAS EVENTS. THEN THE ELECTRIC RACERS CAN CONCERN THEMSELVES WITH THEIR OWN RULES AND THE NITRO/GAS RACERS CAN CONCERN THEMSELVES WITH THEIR OWN RULES. DONE DEAL!!!

Doug

 

[Mark Bullard]

Larry what your seeing is peak amps. If you give me the rpm and the number of poles you running I can give you the number of times your batteries are seeing that peak. The numbers will blow your mind for sure and I would like to see what it is myself.

Here's a set up of mine.

Neu 1521/1.5D - 1,900 Kv - 14.8 volt nominal - 4 pole rotor - 12 slot stator - Rm (ohms) = 0.005

Also calculate a 1,020 Kv motor @ 37 volts nominal

If I did my math right the 1900Kv motor would be turning 28,120 rpm at 14.8 volts. A 4 pole motor will have 2 peaks per phase per 360 degrees of rotation. Now this happens for the other phases also. So 28,120rpm times 2 equals 56,240 peaks per phase time 3 phases is 168,720 current peaks per minute. The other motor is 226440 current peaks per minute.

Now remember the current peaks are not the same as running current. The wire sizes you all use are small compared to the peak current. Number 10 ga is only good for 30 amps at 90 degree C and 8 is only good for 40 amps at 90 degree C full load current. Now I know the wire you all use is a higher temp and this will increase the current carrying capactity some but not the numbers you are saying the motors are running at.

There is one thing for sure the peaks are the problem you are having by heating everything up. It is the frequency of the peaks. It is a little like heating in a microwave oven.

 

[Doug Smock]

GUYS,

This is the beginning of the third season in Dist.13 that FEs have been running in a Gas, Nitro, and now FE Grand Prix Series.

The FE guys came from a scale FE club (Southeast Model Boaters) that lost their pond do to water fowl.

The Altanta Model Boaters ( THANKS AGAIN!!!) did not hesitate in opening up their pond to us and we are a asset to each other.

There were 20 or so of us at the pond today, test and tune day before our first race in the series .

WE SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE ANY ISSUES, there is no hate, infighting, problems of any kind, PERIOD!!! We respect, and help each other, try it fellas, it works and we are ALL having a blast.

See ya at the pond,

Doug

PS Has everyone read post #69?

I'm all for it Don, thank you sir,and let me know how I can help!