IMPBA noise rule & dB meters

[AWaddle322]

As for Huntsville we did check the DB levels at the Records trials but again we just dd not have the manpower to check it at the race. As for the Fall race I'm not going to go because I'm tried putting that much work into an event and not have the help prior to during and afterward. just not enough members so instead of just sitting on my butt and letting some one else do the work while I race drink beer and "BS" while a few members are doing the work of cleaning up everything and putting the stuff away. I have chosen not to participate, although I 'm loaning my boat as the retreieve boat with the stipulation that it and the trailer be returned in the same working order that it was loaned ie. lights in working order tie down straps not missing ect.

Bill, Was I not at this record trial? Was I not in the 88 to 89 db every pass at this event? Why in the world would I change anything as far as noise was concerned. That is 3 to 4 db under the limit. Should be plenty of room for any changes in the atmosphere or site produced. With this same setup at was at 94 db's. This is what is not acceptable to this rule. I for one believe that the db meter was at fault as the meter that was used at Huntsville had the same varations at Evansville. Is this acceptable? i don' t beleive so. a 5 to 7 db varation between 4 meter is not acceptable.

So far as you not attending the fall race: I hate to hear that. I think that if you would not insist on tearing down the race site while trophy presantion and ralfe is going on that you would have more help. with this being said I hope that you rethink your position on this. If not so be it.

Allen

Brian's post is pretty close. There were a lot more boats that were over the limit but were not warned. All of the F hydro drawed a warning except two I believe. Were they able to comply yes. Why because 90% of them layed dead in the water on there next rounds trying to comply with the noise issuse. Now do you really think that there is a true US 1 in F hydro. I don't think so, it was a injustice to the F hydro drivers and a injustice to the winner. And to be honest I can not even tell you who won the US 1 in F hydro which is sad.

Now I know that there has been a lot of things said about the Evansville club and that there has been a lot of thing said from the Evansville club. Is all of this their fault, I don't think so. They were just hand this tub of Sh--t with this screw up rule. Now was there a problem at the lake site? Yes, but what caused it I do not know. The real fault falls with the board. They had the power to correct this before it got out of hand on Sunday morning before the event started at the board meeting that Bill called on the subject. It was a know fact there was a problem with the lake site on the noise issuse. There was only two people on the board that wanted to not DQ racers and make everyone mad at this event. And of course it was the small boat runners on the board that prevaled. To go into a event this big knowing that there is a problem and with the amount of money that was spent that week only to turn ones head to say well the problem does not affect me was wrong.

Mark Bullard

Ok we know what has happened,where are we towards finding a solution? Please keep us informed as to what you are doing and how we as a body can resolve the issue at hand. Its almost August lets gittr done before the first of the year Who are all the commitee members we as members need to be informed as the commitee finds answers or better yet a cure........Mike

Mike,

Right now I am waiting on the go no go on the the repair on the calibrator that John had at the Internats. In last talk that I had it can be repaired but the parts are not avaible thru a new source. I am going to get John to get the calibrator back and I am going to send it to a place that does board level repair. Randall Thomas has it right now. And we had ask him to see if he could fix it. Randall can fix it if he had the parts but like I said they are not avaible. Since Randall is working hard on the timing consoles and has his plate full that I thought that I would just get it back and see if I can get it repaired. As soon as I can get it repaired or buy a new one I will get everyone that wants to check their meter to sent it to me and I will calibrate it for them and give them a report on what I find.

Then we will start testing with some ideas that have already been talk about to see if it is even possible to do this with this device. The main thing is to try to control as many of the variables as possible. And then only just try to add to the present rule without totaly rewriting it.

The committee members are John Equi because he is such a good document keeper. Joe Warren, Doc Turner, Stu Bar, Kevin Sheren, Allen Waddle, Don Ferette, and many others. I have had four request to help on this committee today and they are all welcome. Anyone that wants to help or has any information that they feel like I can use please sent it to me. I have piles of it right now but could always use more.

The main thing is I want to fix this before the next Internats so that no other club will have to go thru the problems that your club had to endure and are still having to. And so the members will have a fare shake and not a roast that has happen with this rule.

One of the things that I do not have is a copy if the ANSI standard S 1.4. If we have to buy it it is $200.00. I am sure that someone has a copy somewhere they could donate.

Mark Bullard

Mark, you will find the ansi standard and the osha standard to be the same just using differnt wording. I have posted a link with the osha standard. if you need the osha standrd let me know. I will start looking for the ansi standard as well..

Allen

 

[330T]

This is simple to solve. Someone take their nifty mobile RC boat trailer, and convert it into a sound stage. Line the inside with sound deadening foam and mount a boat stand right in the center then mount the db meter in the same location for each test.

/Sarcasm

 

[SayMikey]

This is simple to solve. Someone take their nifty mobile RC boat trailer, and convert it into a sound stage. Line the inside with sound deadening foam and mount a boat stand right in the center then mount the db meter in the same location for each test.

/Sarcasm

I want to thank Tom Moorehouse for not locking this thread,a lot of belley aching and such is not good but we need to resolve our problem and i think its working ....Mike Schindler

 

[bzubee]

"You have made your feeling public instead of addressing the ones that these comments are dirrected towards and in my opinion this is just wrong."

Allan, after the way you acted during the awards banquet you have nerve to refer to something being done wrong in public? I didn't think you would know what that meant. <_<

 

[Mark Bullard]

Mark, you will find the ansi standard and the osha standard to be the same just using differnt wording. I have posted a link with the osha standard. if you need the osha standrd let me know. I will start looking for the ansi standard as well..

Allen

Allen,

The ansi standard S 1.4 that I am looking for has to do with the calibration in the test equipment or dB meters and there variables. Now I know that the Radio shack meters are not calibrated to this spec. but I thought I would see if they can and will hold the calibration. I may be spinning my wheels a little but I am going to try to stay in the bountries of what everyone has as of now. Of course this may change but for now I am trying to work with what we have.

Mark

 

[Chris Wood]

I would like to make a suggestion if i could..

I realize this may get shot down like a clay pigeon but oh well.

Since alot of the discrepency is involving going from one race to the next being legal at one and not at the other..

Could we have something like a tech sheet for the clubs..

have them metered at the race.. if they pass then it is noted on say the impba site stating that you are legal and where the tech was done..

i see gray area's in which if you choose to use a different pipe that was teched.. or different this or that..

but I think if we get all of the impba clubs in on this and have it to where you are tech with x equipement and it passed.. then it is noted..

Or we don't have db rule.. go back to the muffler rule, and have it such that if you are noticably louder you get a warning, if you don't make a attempt to quiet it down.. you are gone in the next round..

I really don't know what else to suggest right now. .i need to think on this some.. but here is my start to a resolve, either right wrong or indifferent.......

it is either that or we do like a spec product.

x amount of pipe's are IMPBA approved... make them work. otherwise as long as you give people the oppertunity to get around it they will.. at least you have a say in what you can and can't use.. after that it is up to them to make it work..

just trying to get something rolling.

chris

p.s don, what is the manufacture you are working with if you don't mind telling us?

 

[RodneyPierce]

I would like to make a suggestion if i could..

I realize this may get shot down like a clay pigeon but oh well.

Since alot of the discrepency is involving going from one race to the next being legal at one and not at the other..

Could we have something like a tech sheet for the clubs..

have them metered at the race.. if they pass then it is noted on say the impba site stating that you are legal and where the tech was done..

i see gray area's in which if you choose to use a different pipe that was teched.. or different this or that..

but I think if we get all of the impba clubs in on this and have it to where you are tech with x equipement and it passed.. then it is noted..

Or we don't have db rule.. go back to the muffler rule, and have it such that if you are noticably louder you get a warning, if you don't make a attempt to quiet it down.. you are gone in the next round..

I really don't know what else to suggest right now. .i need to think on this some.. but here is my start to a resolve, either right wrong or indifferent.......

it is either that or we do like a spec product.

x amount of pipe's are IMPBA approved... make them work. otherwise as long as you give people the oppertunity to get around it they will.. at least you have a say in what you can and can't use.. after that it is up to them to make it work..

just trying to get something rolling.

chris

p.s don, what is the manufacture you are working with if you don't mind telling us?

To me, this right here is a great idea!

 

[Mark Bullard]

I would like to make a suggestion if i could..

I realize this may get shot down like a clay pigeon but oh well.

Since alot of the discrepency is involving going from one race to the next being legal at one and not at the other..

Could we have something like a tech sheet for the clubs..

have them metered at the race.. if they pass then it is noted on say the impba site stating that you are legal and where the tech was done..

i see gray area's in which if you choose to use a different pipe that was teched.. or different this or that..

but I think if we get all of the impba clubs in on this and have it to where you are tech with x equipement and it passed.. then it is noted..

Or we don't have db rule.. go back to the muffler rule, and have it such that if you are noticably louder you get a warning, if you don't make a attempt to quiet it down.. you are gone in the next round..

I really don't know what else to suggest right now. .i need to think on this some.. but here is my start to a resolve, either right wrong or indifferent.......

it is either that or we do like a spec product.

x amount of pipe's are IMPBA approved... make them work. otherwise as long as you give people the oppertunity to get around it they will.. at least you have a say in what you can and can't use.. after that it is up to them to make it work..

just trying to get something rolling.

chris

p.s don, what is the manufacture you are working with if you don't mind telling us?

Chris,

You have some good ideas. And right now there is not a clear picture on what it is going to take to fix the problem. This is why I wrote the proposal to set aside the present rule for a short period of time to get a handle on this. But of course it got shot down.

Now since we have such a bad rule I suggest that the clubs that are holding races just take notes of what they found at there races on different boats and not enforce the rule. Why because at the present time there is no scienitific data to make that rule stand. And there are plenty of environmental lawyers out there that will help you get your money back from the race you were DQ from. Yes this is a rash statement. but sometimes people don't listen until you get into their pockets.

This is the main reason why I have been so against this rule because there is no way to enforce it in a scienitific way.

Read the rule for yourself and you will see what I mean. It has no scienetific merrit to it at all. You could drive a ship thru it and not look back. And this is what has happen. The ship blasted thru and the pieces were left floating.

As soon as I can get the calibrator back and repaired we will be able to start fixing the problem.

Mark Bullard

 

[Mark Bullard]

I would like to make a suggestion if i could..

I realize this may get shot down like a clay pigeon but oh well.

Since alot of the discrepency is involving going from one race to the next being legal at one and not at the other..

Could we have something like a tech sheet for the clubs..

have them metered at the race.. if they pass then it is noted on say the impba site stating that you are legal and where the tech was done..

i see gray area's in which if you choose to use a different pipe that was teched.. or different this or that..

but I think if we get all of the impba clubs in on this and have it to where you are tech with x equipement and it passed.. then it is noted..

Or we don't have db rule.. go back to the muffler rule, and have it such that if you are noticably louder you get a warning, if you don't make a attempt to quiet it down.. you are gone in the next round..

I really don't know what else to suggest right now. .i need to think on this some.. but here is my start to a resolve, either right wrong or indifferent.......

it is either that or we do like a spec product.

x amount of pipe's are IMPBA approved... make them work. otherwise as long as you give people the oppertunity to get around it they will.. at least you have a say in what you can and can't use.. after that it is up to them to make it work..

just trying to get something rolling.

chris

p.s don, what is the manufacture you are working with if you don't mind telling us?

To me, this right here is a great idea!

Rodney,

There is no way that IMPBA can approve pipes for our use. I could take a pipe, two of the same motors and place them in the same boat. And then come up with two different readings on dB. How by changing the timing numbers of the motors. Now if we all want to run stock motors and no nitro then we will have no problem getting the dB level down even lower than it is. But we in IMPBA have never had stock classes and never will. This is not racing and to place these kind of limits on racers would just be wrong. Do you realize that a K 90 will generate about 87 dB by just turning the motor over with the starter from 20' away. And I mean that is not with firing the plug to get the pop from the conbustion.

A motor is a air pump. It intakes air in compresses it and then exhaust it out. I know that most everyone on this board has a aircompressor. If you have a dB meter, go stand 20' away and measure the aircompressor. I believe that you will all be shocked. You can't hear the air going into the tank but you can sure hear the air being suck in. I would really like to hear what you all found out so post the results of the dB level of you aircompressor.

Mark Bullard

 

[RodneyPierce]

Mark, sorry, I should have been more specific about what I liked. I wasnt in favor of the pipe thing, but rather if the boat passes at one place, taht is godo enough, and shouldnt have to DB test, considering nothign has changed. I also think that just getting rid of the ruel is just as good of an idear, if not better!

 

[Chris Wood]

Mark, sorry, I should have been more specific about what I liked. I wasnt in favor of the pipe thing, but rather if the boat passes at one place, taht is godo enough, and shouldnt have to DB test, considering nothign has changed. I also think that just getting rid of the ruel is just as good of an idear, if not better!

Mark,

My whole idea behind the pipe thing was to make it this.. Leave it up to the IMPBA BOARD.. If they approve it then you are fine.. if it is over the limit. to bad, they approved it.. What more could be said about it? Then it is up to them to figure out why it is to loud or what needs to be done about it.

You know I am with you on this issue, we discussed it alot at the nats. Me and allan talked about it alot to, and i feel if you ( PASS ) at one place, you should be fine for all others.. We cannot control surroundings, and that is something to consider..

Yes i know we need to shoot for lower than the rule is.. But I also feel until we make a solid, consistant way to do this we will all be shooting ourselves in the foot.

The BIGGER BOATS are on the decline in our hobby, this is just another easy way to weed them out.. I would hate to see that. I have been running them for along time and would like to continue.

The thing i find interesting about all of this, i have talked to people that suggest try this muffler it passes or this pipe is quiet enough, well i have tried just about every muffler, pipe combo you can get and still nothing works.

I will have to try the pipe that rod g. discussed earlier, and then I am out of options.

Chris

I would like to hear from some of the other guys on this board that race.. Ron Zaker, Andy Brown.. Frank Orlic, anyone have any ideas as to where to go with this??

chris

 

[Mark Bullard]

Mark, sorry, I should have been more specific about what I liked. I wasnt in favor of the pipe thing, but rather if the boat passes at one place, taht is godo enough, and shouldnt have to DB test, considering nothign has changed. I also think that just getting rid of the ruel is just as good of an idear, if not better!

No problem Rodney. You make a very good point. If a boat passes at one place and does not at another then what has changed. Is it the boat or is it the site. I am including a copy of the proposal that I made at the Internats board meeting. I feel the membership should see what the board left on the table with no second. If you will read this very close you will see that it in no way takes the present rule out but only supends it for a few months. This way it removes the teeth out of the rule so that there is some time to fix the problem without causing a lot of problems for other racers at other races. I had over 50% of the racers signature at the nats. Of course I do not need signatures to make a proposal at a board meeting.

Proposal

Due to the fact that there is no established technical standard for measuring dB sound levels in a scientific or engineering method at the present time.

That the present noise be suspended and the earlier rule of “must run muffling devices be installed until there is enough technical and scientific data collected to install a dB rule.

This rule will be suspended for a period of ten months or until May 1, 2007.

Therefore be it resolved that a committee will be formed to collect data so that a technical way of enforcing a dB rule may be applied.

This committee will report to the board on the first of May, 2007.

Mark Bullard

 

[Piston1]

Mark. you got my vote. I would further enhance your proposal by stating that the present rule or lower limits if desired, is adequate guidance to support the ultimate intent of the rule if necessary on a local basis.

 

[Mark Bullard]

Mark, sorry, I should have been more specific about what I liked. I wasnt in favor of the pipe thing, but rather if the boat passes at one place, taht is godo enough, and shouldnt have to DB test, considering nothign has changed. I also think that just getting rid of the ruel is just as good of an idear, if not better!

Mark,

My whole idea behind the pipe thing was to make it this.. Leave it up to the IMPBA BOARD.. If they approve it then you are fine.. if it is over the limit. to bad, they approved it.. What more could be said about it? Then it is up to them to figure out why it is to loud or what needs to be done about it.

You know I am with you on this issue, we discussed it alot at the nats. Me and allan talked about it alot to, and i feel if you ( PASS ) at one place, you should be fine for all others.. We cannot control surroundings, and that is something to consider..

Yes i know we need to shoot for lower than the rule is.. But I also feel until we make a solid, consistant way to do this we will all be shooting ourselves in the foot.

The BIGGER BOATS are on the decline in our hobby, this is just another easy way to weed them out.. I would hate to see that. I have been running them for along time and would like to continue.

The thing i find interesting about all of this, i have talked to people that suggest try this muffler it passes or this pipe is quiet enough, well i have tried just about every muffler, pipe combo you can get and still nothing works.

I will have to try the pipe that rod g. discussed earlier, and then I am out of options.

Chris

I would like to hear from some of the other guys on this board that race.. Ron Zaker, Andy Brown.. Frank Orlic, anyone have any ideas as to where to go with this??

chris

Chris,

I know that you are on the same wavelink. And I thank you for any input. And to answer you question of why your motors will not run more quiet. It is the way you have you timing set. A lot of your sound is coming from your intake I am guessing. I want you and all to read what Dave Marles posted earlier in post #30. And it was;

Quote:

I operated the noise meters too and DQ 'd plenty but eventually people stopped arguing and devoted their energies to what was important.

Incidentally, the noise rules are relaxed for Naviga World Champs (although I'm sure it would be denied) or many riggers wouldnt be running.

Dave

End Quote:

It just goes to show you that the Naviga World Champs are have the same problems.

Mark Bullard

 

[Roxyflash]

Time to get the crying towels out.LOL I dont like the DB limit.Number one im on a very low budget so testing a bunch of pipes i dont have money for doesnt work for me.So i been making mufflers or something to add to my pipes i have and what a joke!The start of this mess was to have a add on last year.It should of been if it meets the limit you dont need anything.If its too load you dont race.Simple.There are pipes that work might not be the fastest or cheap either but if your too load you need to get it quiet.I own one quiet pipe thats been drilled out lot of good it did but runs good.So if i get dq i guess i just pack up and enjoy the brews.Every year the cost of this hobby keeps goin up.Motors plugs fuel ,cost of races and gasoline and finally the pipes they want a much for a small pipe as a large muffler on your car.So if you got money spend it figure out what works and go racing.Probably why im only goin to race once this year.Wonder why we keep losing people.

 

[Chris Wood]

Time to get the crying towels out.LOL I dont like the DB limit.Number one im on a very low budget so testing a bunch of pipes i dont have money for doesnt work for me.So i been making mufflers or something to add to my pipes i have and what a joke!The start of this mess was to have a add on last year.It should of been if it meets the limit you dont need anything.If its too load you dont race.Simple.There are pipes that work might not be the fastest or cheap either but if your too load you need to get it quiet.I own one quiet pipe thats been drilled out lot of good it did but runs good.So if i get dq i guess i just pack up and enjoy the brews.Every year the cost of this hobby keeps goin up.Motors plugs fuel ,cost of races and gasoline and finally the pipes they want a much for a small pipe as a large muffler on your car.So if you got money spend it figure out what works and go racing.Probably why im only goin to race once this year.Wonder why we keep losing people.

AMEN BRUCE!!!

That is exactly what i am talking about....

chris

 

[Grimracer]

Toss the DB meter in the lake and have the INDUSTRY ( Read in people with money, with the want to support your happy little hobby ) make the pipes that "AN" IMPBA adopted group approve.. NOTIHNG NEW here.. its done all the time..

Intill this happens.. this DB BS is, and never will go any place

Mike Z

 

[RodneyPierce]

Toss the DB meter in the lake and have the INDUSTRY ( Read in people with money, with the want to support your happy little hobby ) make the pipes that "AN" IMPBA adopted group approve.. NOTIHNG NEW here.. its done all the time..

Intill this happens.. this DB BS is, and never will go any place

Mike Z

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!! ROCK ON DUDE as the famous saying goes!

 

[dave roach]

I have a suggestion,Put a dubro241 pressure fitting in the stinger a run water in the stinger and this will get it below 92 db. been there done that. it works

My .002 cents

 

[teddyd]

I KNOW THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE WORKING VERY HARD TO GET A HANDLE ON THE DB ISSUE

I REALLY HATE TO SAY THIS, CLUBS THAT DQ'S BOATS BASED ON A PIECE OF TEST EQ (DB METER) COULD BECOME A LEGAL ISSUE. ONE OF THE REASON BEING AS SIMPLE AS WAS THE PERSON THAT CALIBRATED THE TEST EQ QUALIFIED TO DO SO. I'VE LISTEN TO PEOPLE SAY JUST SET UP THE METER AND TAKE A READING, EASY TO DO BUT HARD TO GET AN ACTUATE READING. I KNOW WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE NOISE LEVEL BUT, I CAN'T THINK OF NONE OTHER THEN HAVING RACERS RUN A MUFFLER THAT WE KNOW SHOULD MEET THE DB LEVELS AND SAY IT LEGAL LONG AS THE BOAT HAS THAT MUFFLER ON IT. THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO ABOUT THE RACE SITES VARIABLES.

IF TWO BOATS SETUP THE SAME RUNNING THE SAME KIND OF MUFFLER OR QUIET PIPE AND ONE FAILS THE DB TEST WHAT MORE CAN THE OWNER OF THAT BOAT DO. I'M NOT LOOKING FOR A BOX MATCH JUST TRYING TO BRING TO LIGHT SOME OF THE PROMBLES THAT MAY OR MAY NOT POP UP.

I KNOW THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BOAT RACING BUT...............

I ONCE WENT TO COURT FOR A SPEEDING TICKET. I BEAT THE TICKET WHEN THE JUDGE ASK THE OFFICER WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME HE HAD CALIBRATED HIS RADAR GUN. HE TOLD THE JUDGE 3 DAYS AGO. THE JUDGE TOLD HIM IT SHOULD'VE BEEN CALIBRATED WHEN HE GOT INTO HIS CAR THAT MORNING.

I HOPE WE FINE A FIX SOON FOR THE NOISE........................TEDDY D.