IMPBA noise rule & dB meters

[Don Ferrette]

IF everyone stops and takes a look at who all is doing the complaining it is the racers that do not host races and actually have sites to run at or try to keep. They are the visitors to the other people's race sites that they have worked hard to obtain and keep.

A big frikkin' AHEM to that!

 

[bzubee]

One thing I want to make clear is that the Evansville Club di ddo a good job hosting the INTERNATS and should actually be commended for putting up with all the complaints they were only trying to enforce the rules as written and voted on by the majority of members (that turned in ballots) If you didn't vote you DO NOT HAVE a say in this discusion. VERY few ballots are ever turned in on any proposal. About 10% is all that ever vote some directors have even started counting e-mail votes, and still the membership does not bother turning in ballots. You don't vote; Don't Complain! It's that simple.

A boater once told me there are takers and there are givers. Right now it seems there are allot more takers than givers in model boating. Just look at how hard it is to get clubs to host an event as large as the Internats. Why because it takes many 'givers' to pull off an event the size of the Internats.

 

[Chris Wood]

IF everyone stops and takes a look at who all is doing the complaining it is the racers that do not host races and actually have sites to run at or try to keep. They are the visitors to the other people's race sites that they have worked hard to obtain and keep.

I resent that bill.. I have been doing this for a long time, we host races, we even put on the 2000 nats..

The problem is we have to many DAMB Keyboard racers that don't attend enough races that vote ya or na to see what this problem is all about.. YOU YOURSELF SAID THAT DIRECTLY TO ME AT THE NAT'S.

that is a whole other topic that could be addressed..

chris

 

[330T]

If noise is such a big concern why not just vote to lower the db to 85 (or whatever) but give racers, and manufactures a year to get to that standard?

 

[Don Ferrette]

The problem is we have to many DAMB .............

That would be DAMN actually Chris.

No offense buddy, trying to inject some humor. I have great respect for anyone who lives through holding race events as I've been part of running races for many years including the 1999 Internats. The Evansville club is getting wronglyfully bashed for trying to uphold the rules to the best of their abilities & as Bill pointed out by some who don't hold races & have no clue what it's like trying to protect the sites they have. Anyone who thought there wouldn't be hurdles to overcome in getting this kind of rule in place is/was only kidding themselves but this, as any other hurdle, can & will be overcome. The noise rule is not going away, get used to it. And get used to the idea that the noise level limits will continue to drop, it is something we as boaters will have to come to terms with just like our European friends have had to do. If some of you that are so hell bent on fighting this put HALF the energy you are expending into working on seriously quieting your boats (NOT just squeaking in under the limit) as you do bitching you'd already be finding good solid answers. There are pipes needed to quiet these big motors down already out there & have been, with more on the way (I am testing new stuff from a pipe manufacturer as we speak). These boats need to be quieter & it is going to happen ...........................

 

[Joe Warren]

Bill I had No problem comforming to the Evansville DB Hoax. & Yes I have raced several places Not just Huntsville in the last 3 years & Had No problems. But Due to the Problems @ Evansville on these few days. My old set up would not pass. I believe you found several problems consirning the testing on friday nites board meeting. All of this pertained to the testing @ the Nats. This is what we are complaining about. I NEVER DREW A WARNING @ THE 2006 NATS, GOT IT? But there were a lot of paying Impba members that were not treated fairly @ that event. I also see some key board racers that would have been leaving early too. If the club was consirned about the lake & the races Ears????? These same rules should have been enforced @ the June Race.

 

[El Zorro]

ALL I CAN SAY IS, IF SOME OF YOU GUYS WERE JUDGES, THERE WOULD BE A LOT MORE PEOPLE IN JAIL BECAUSE OF YOUR BELIEF!!!! :lol: h34r:

The goal of this rule change was to lower the overall sound of racing. WE ALL know that some people have embraced this goal more than others. Those who are being dragged, kicking and screaming, toward quieter boats are really not helping the overall health of the hobby, at least not wrt preserving sites. We need to reduce sound and arguments about measurements are in a way a distraction. Heck, I tried to keep my boats quiet 20 years ago.

One thing I want to make clear is that the Evansville Club di ddo a good job hosting the INTERNATS and should actually be commended for putting up with all the complaints they were only trying to enforce the rules as written and voted on by the majority of members (that turned in ballots) If you didn't vote you DO NOT HAVE a say in this discusion. VERY few ballots are ever turned in on any proposal. About 10% is all that ever vote some directors have even started counting e-mail votes, and still the membership does not bother turning in ballots. You don't vote; Don't Complain! It's that simple.

A boater once told me there are takers and there are givers. Right now it seems there are allot more takers than givers in model boating. Just look at how hard it is to get clubs to host an event as large as the Internats. Why because it takes many 'givers' to pull off an event the size of the Internats.

Wow, sounds like some of the same things the IMPBA President said about 10 years ago. Not many people wanted to listen to any of this back then, either.

Very few members vote, but EVERYONE wants to complain about something. It is supposed to be a FUN hobby. You can only TAKE so much from your hobby before you have to GIVE something back. Think about that for a minute............how many races have you gone to and just raced? How many races have you put on for your fellow competitors? For most of us it won't even balance out. Do you have any idea how much work goes into putting on the Internats? Don't even try to criticize the people who volunteer their time and efforts ( and money ) to put on a good show for the racers who come to the Internats. Unless you have been in their shoes and done that before, DON'T SAY A WORD!!! If more people would step up to the plate and give something back to this hobby there would be a lot less of you complaining about what's wrong with it. Sure there are problems and there will always be some problems, but don't sit back and complain until SOMEONE ELSE fixes it!

And you wonder why I don't play with little boats anymore...........

Dick Tyndall

 

[Joe Warren]

h34r: Bill, does Huntsville pond have a problem with the 95 DB rule???? Harry G say he is commited to the huntsville fall race, after that he is DONE........ Harry (flexshaft) was boating when I started he has CDed, raced & developed boating as much as anybody.

 

[SayMikey]

h34r: Bill, does Huntsville pond have a problem with the 95 DB rule???? Harry G say he is commited to the huntsville fall race, after that he is DONE........ Harry (flexshaft) was boating when I started he has CDed, raced & developed boating as much as anybody.

Maybe its time to put ballots for key issues in the membership form. Wanna be a member vote when you sign up each year. Without full membership vote we have nothing

 

[AWaddle322]

Any time that you have a hard number such as 92 db's there must be a way that people can measure this and be assured of getting repeadatable results. Ask yourself this question, In our rule book there is a a hard number rule on engine size. Know ask yourself can 10 people measure that engine with 10 different measuring devices and get the same result (exact number probabbly not but with in .002 range yes). Know ask yourself with what was seen at the internats can you do this with the db rule and the answere is no, not even close. This is the part of the rule I want fixed I do not care what the db # is but I do care that the results are repeatable.

You can take any other hard measurement in our rule book and get resonably repeatable results except for the db rule. Is this accaptable? This is racing where we push the starts, we push our driving ability, we push our boats and we push our motors to the absoult limit and as long as someone sees it as advantage there will be someone that push 92dbs as well

There will be people that push the 92 db as they may see it as an advantage, there will be some people that push the dimension on the strut of a scale as they see it as advantage, there will some people that push the size limit on motors as they see it as an advatage. there is no differnce in pushing any of these rules except one is not able to be repeadetly measured accurately with the guidlines in our rule book.

We have heard from many different orginzaiotions that such and such rule has worked for them for x amount of time. There are leaders and there are followers in life. There has been some that seem ok with there being this much devation in the dbs rule as written and will just follow. I personally want to be a part of an orginzation that takes what was learned about the db and uses this information to make there orginization a leader and not a follower.

I want everyone to know that I do not feel singled out by the Evansville club on anything they did. they put on a good show and enforced all rules extrememly well. I have made alot of refrences to internats and this is not to bash the Evansville club but rather to provide information to the findings that were found at the internats. The 2 internats that I have been to at Evansville are 2 of the best put on, well organized, fairly run internats that I have been to. I saw no witch hunts.

Are you a leader or a follower?

Sincerely,

Allen Waddle

 

[SayMikey]

Any time that you have a hard number such as 92 db's there must be a way that people can measure this and be assured of getting repeadatable results. Ask yourself this question, In our rule book there is a a hard number rule on engine size. Know ask yourself can 10 people measure that engine with 10 different measuring devices and get the same result (exact number probabbly not but with in .002 range yes). Know ask yourself with what was seen at the internats can you do this with the db rule and the answere is no, not even close. This is the part of the rule I want fixed I do not care what the db # is but I do care that the results are repeatable.

You can take any other hard measurement in our rule book and get resonably repeatable results except for the db rule. Is this accaptable? This is racing where we push the starts, we push our driving ability, we push our boats and we push our motors to the absoult limit and as long as someone sees it as advantage there will be someone that push 92dbs as well

There will be people that push the 92 db as they may see it as an advantage, there will be some people that push the dimension on the strut of a scale as they see it as advantage, there will some people that push the size limit on motors as they see it as an advatage. there is no differnce in pushing any of these rules except one is not able to be repeadetly measured accurately with the guidlines in our rule book.

We have heard from many different orginzaiotions that such and such rule has worked for them for x amount of time. There are leaders and there are followers in life. There has been some that seem ok with there being this much devation in the dbs rule as written and will just follow. I personally want to be a part of an orginzation that takes what was learned about the db and uses this information to make there orginization a leader and not a follower.

I want everyone to know that I do not feel singled out by the Evansville club on anything they did. they put on a good show and enforced all rules extrememly well. I have made alot of refrences to internats and this is not to bash the Evansville club but rather to provide information to the findings that were found at the internats. The 2 internats that I have been to at Evansville are 2 of the best put on, well organized, fairly run internats that I have been to. I saw no witch hunts.

Are you a leader or a follower?

Sincerely,

Allen Waddle

Well said Allen and no there were no witch hunts and when Mr Bullard ran by himself i dont think he ever came outside on the course on bouy six as instructed. Lets face it we have a problem with noise and we need to fix our measuring system and it could include a change in the 92db at least till we get a handle on it. Both meters were blamed in Evansville,radio shack meters as instructed by the rule lets keep working in a direction to fix this..............Mike

 

[AWaddle322]

Any time that you have a hard number such as 92 db's there must be a way that people can measure this and be assured of getting repeadatable results. Ask yourself this question, In our rule book there is a a hard number rule on engine size. Know ask yourself can 10 people measure that engine with 10 different measuring devices and get the same result (exact number probabbly not but with in .002 range yes). Know ask yourself with what was seen at the internats can you do this with the db rule and the answere is no, not even close. This is the part of the rule I want fixed I do not care what the db # is but I do care that the results are repeatable.

You can take any other hard measurement in our rule book and get resonably repeatable results except for the db rule. Is this accaptable? This is racing where we push the starts, we push our driving ability, we push our boats and we push our motors to the absoult limit and as long as someone sees it as advantage there will be someone that push 92dbs as well

There will be people that push the 92 db as they may see it as an advantage, there will be some people that push the dimension on the strut of a scale as they see it as advantage, there will some people that push the size limit on motors as they see it as an advatage. there is no differnce in pushing any of these rules except one is not able to be repeadetly measured accurately with the guidlines in our rule book.

We have heard from many different orginzaiotions that such and such rule has worked for them for x amount of time. There are leaders and there are followers in life. There has been some that seem ok with there being this much devation in the dbs rule as written and will just follow. I personally want to be a part of an orginzation that takes what was learned about the db and uses this information to make there orginization a leader and not a follower.

I want everyone to know that I do not feel singled out by the Evansville club on anything they did. they put on a good show and enforced all rules extrememly well. I have made alot of refrences to internats and this is not to bash the Evansville club but rather to provide information to the findings that were found at the internats. The 2 internats that I have been to at Evansville are 2 of the best put on, well organized, fairly run internats that I have been to. I saw no witch hunts.

Are you a leader or a follower?

Sincerely,

Allen Waddle

Well said Allen and no there were no witch hunts and when Mr Bullard ran by himself i dont think he ever came outside on the course on bouy six as instructed. Lets face it we have a problem with noise and we need to fix our measuring system and it could include a change in the 92db at least till we get a handle on it. Both meters were blamed in Evansville,radio shack meters as instructed by the rule lets keep working in a direction to fix this..............Mike

Mikey, I still get the feeling that the majority of the board does not belive there is a problem to fix.

If I am wrong please tell me I am wrong board members.

Allen

 

[Brian Schymik]

Thank you Allen. I appreciate that comment and agree with everything you just said!

Once again I wish to add the facts to refresh everyone: only 17 warnings were given in Evansville

Only 2 boats out of 440 were DQ'ed.

Only one racer left because of the noise issue ( that I know of)

15 out of 17 racers were able to fix their boat to comply.

I think we all learned a LOT. Regarding big motors...

Most add on mufflers didn't work here.

Nitro pipes with stingers or inserts didn't work here.

Some Muffled pipes didn't work here.

Most guys, with a day at the lake, could make a boat run just great with a muffled pipe that was also quiet enough, it just is tough to do without practicing first.

Let's take this knowledge, add to it and make progress.

Brian

 

[piper_chuck]

There will be people that push the 92 db as they may see it as an advantage, there will be some people that push the dimension on the strut of a scale as they see it as advantage, there will some people that push the size limit on motors as they see it as an advatage. there is no differnce in pushing any of these rules except one is not able to be repeadetly measured accurately with the guidlines in our rule book.

There will always be people who try to push (exceed) limits that are enacted in rules. RC boating (and flying) has had noise problems for years. Some people have dug their heels in for years and REFUSED to do anything to quiet their equipment. I still see people racing big engines with UNMUFFLED tuned pipes! Others cling to as much noise as they can hoping for that "advantage" you talk about. Just how much more foot dragging should we allow before we move forward?

The message that has been given several times is that people who push the limits wrt noise are at risk of exceeding those limits, with a resulting DQ. The rules we have may not be perfect, but they're a BIG step forward. This situation has been brewing for years. According to the numbers Brian posted, less than .5% of the boats were DQ'd. If the measuring methodology needs to be tightened up a bit, great, but it appears the rule is actually working well. Let's NOT take a step backward while we're figuring out how to do this a bit better.

 

[AWaddle322]

There will be people that push the 92 db as they may see it as an advantage, there will be some people that push the dimension on the strut of a scale as they see it as advantage, there will some people that push the size limit on motors as they see it as an advatage. there is no differnce in pushing any of these rules except one is not able to be repeadetly measured accurately with the guidlines in our rule book.

There will always be people who try to push (exceed) limits that are enacted in rules. RC boating (and flying) has had noise problems for years. Some people have dug their heels in for years and REFUSED to do anything to quiet their equipment. I still see people racing big engines with UNMUFFLED tuned pipes! Others cling to as much noise as they can hoping for that "advantage" you talk about. Just how much more foot dragging should we allow before we move forward?

The message that has been given several times is that people who push the limits wrt noise are at risk of exceeding those limits, with a resulting DQ. The rules we have may not be perfect, but they're a BIG step forward. This situation has been brewing for years. According to the numbers Brian posted, less than .5% of the boats were DQ'd. If the measuring methodology needs to be tightened up a bit, great, but it appears the rule is actually working well. Let's NOT take a step backward while we're figuring out how to do this a bit better.

Chuck,

We have moved forward. Know is the time to perfect the rule. While less than >.5 percent were dq'd it affected more like 50 percent of boats involved. Many people were making changes during this event because they had been given bad information from past testing or Evansville meters were not correct. I can not say which is the case because up until that it is determined that some meter is accurate and calabrated none of use can say for sure. 92 db's may be really loud or really quite but 92 db's is what was voted on and know it is time to determine what 92 dbs really is.

The more I read on db meter it appears all of this can be put to bed with a $250.00 meter that with 2 buttons can calibrate itself in less than .5 seconds. Is this to much to ask for repeatable results?

Sincerely,

Allen waddle

 

[Mark Bullard]

Brian's post is pretty close. There were a lot more boats that were over the limit but were not warned. All of the F hydro drawed a warning except two I believe. Were they able to comply yes. Why because 90% of them layed dead in the water on there next rounds trying to comply with the noise issuse. Now do you really think that there is a true US 1 in F hydro. I don't think so, it was a injustice to the F hydro drivers and a injustice to the winner. And to be honest I can not even tell you who won the US 1 in F hydro which is sad.

Now I know that there has been a lot of things said about the Evansville club and that there has been a lot of thing said from the Evansville club. Is all of this their fault, I don't think so. They were just hand this tub of Sh--t with this screw up rule. Now was there a problem at the lake site? Yes, but what caused it I do not know. The real fault falls with the board. They had the power to correct this before it got out of hand on Sunday morning before the event started at the board meeting that Bill called on the subject. It was a know fact there was a problem with the lake site on the noise issuse. There was only two people on the board that wanted to not DQ racers and make everyone mad at this event. And of course it was the small boat runners on the board that prevaled. To go into a event this big knowing that there is a problem and with the amount of money that was spent that week only to turn ones head to say well the problem does not affect me was wrong.

Mark Bullard

 

[SayMikey]

Brian's post is pretty close. There were a lot more boats that were over the limit but were not warned. All of the F hydro drawed a warning except two I believe. Were they able to comply yes. Why because 90% of them layed dead in the water on there next rounds trying to comply with the noise issuse. Now do you really think that there is a true US 1 in F hydro. I don't think so, it was a injustice to the F hydro drivers and a injustice to the winner. And to be honest I can not even tell you who won the US 1 in F hydro which is sad.

Now I know that there has been a lot of things said about the Evansville club and that there has been a lot of thing said from the Evansville club. Is all of this their fault, I don't think so. They were just hand this tub of Sh--t with this screw up rule. Now was there a problem at the lake site? Yes, but what caused it I do not know. The real fault falls with the board. They had the power to correct this before it got out of hand on Sunday morning before the event started at the board meeting that Bill called on the subject. It was a know fact there was a problem with the lake site on the noise issuse. There was only two people on the board that wanted to not DQ racers and make everyone mad at this event. And of course it was the small boat runners on the board that prevaled. To go into a event this big knowing that there is a problem and with the amount of money that was spent that week only to turn ones head to say well the problem does not affect me was wrong.

Mark Bullard

Ok we know what has happened,where are we towards finding a solution? Please keep us informed as to what you are doing and how we as a body can resolve the issue at hand. Its almost August lets gittr done before the first of the year Who are all the commitee members we as members need to be informed as the commitee finds answers or better yet a cure........Mike

 

[bzubee]

Joe, It is not the Evansville DB hoax it is the testing methods and goals of the raceers that was the hoax when a limit is set at 92 db and that is the racers goal instead of getting down to a lower limit. If boaters did that we would still just be using alcohol instead of Nitro since tha tis what the engine manufactures recommend and you sure wouldn't be turning the needles to get the most speed out of your equipment.

As for Huntsville we did check the DB levels at the Records trials but again we just dd not have the manpower to check it at the race. As for the Fall race I'm not going to go because I'm tried putting that much work into an event and not have the help prior to during and afterward. just not enough members so instead of just sitting on my butt and letting some one else do the work while I race drink beer and "BS" while a few members are doing the work of cleaning up everything and putting the stuff away. I have chosen not to participate, although I 'm loaning my boat as the retreieve boat with the stipulation that it and the trailer be returned in the same working order that it was loaned ie. lights in working order tie down straps not missing ect.

Bill I had No problem comforming to the Evansville DB Hoax. & Yes I have raced several places Not just Huntsville in the last 3 years & Had No problems. But Due to the Problems @ Evansville on these few days. My old set up would not pass. I believe you found several problems consirning the testing on friday nites board meeting. All of this pertained to the testing @ the Nats. This is what we are complaining about. I NEVER DREW A WARNING @ THE 2006 NATS, GOT IT? But there were a lot of paying Impba members that were not treated fairly @ that event. I also see some key board racers that would have been leaving early too. If the club was consirned about the lake & the races Ears????? These same rules should have been enforced @ the June Race.

Dick called it exactly correct.

 

[AWaddle322]

I just did a little research. At the 2006 nats there were 23 f hydro contestants that means that 23 boats hit the water or had the opurtunity to hit the water for a total of 115 times. of those 115 times 66 got 25,o or dq. With these # that means that 57.4 percent did not finish. That seems incrediably high for this event. I really wish we could look at the heat racing from the last interntas in evansville to compare that number to. I believe that you more than likely would see the numbers in the 25 ot 30 percent range.

What has changed? Motors have gotten more reliable. Maybe it was just all these changes that we had to make at the last moment to be able to compete at all. thats far from .5 percent everyone keeps referring to as being affected.

Sincerely,

Allen Waddle

 

[Mark Bullard]

Brian's post is pretty close. There were a lot more boats that were over the limit but were not warned. All of the F hydro drawed a warning except two I believe. Were they able to comply yes. Why because 90% of them layed dead in the water on there next rounds trying to comply with the noise issuse. Now do you really think that there is a true US 1 in F hydro. I don't think so, it was a injustice to the F hydro drivers and a injustice to the winner. And to be honest I can not even tell you who won the US 1 in F hydro which is sad.

Now I know that there has been a lot of things said about the Evansville club and that there has been a lot of thing said from the Evansville club. Is all of this their fault, I don't think so. They were just hand this tub of Sh--t with this screw up rule. Now was there a problem at the lake site? Yes, but what caused it I do not know. The real fault falls with the board. They had the power to correct this before it got out of hand on Sunday morning before the event started at the board meeting that Bill called on the subject. It was a know fact there was a problem with the lake site on the noise issuse. There was only two people on the board that wanted to not DQ racers and make everyone mad at this event. And of course it was the small boat runners on the board that prevaled. To go into a event this big knowing that there is a problem and with the amount of money that was spent that week only to turn ones head to say well the problem does not affect me was wrong.

Mark Bullard

Ok we know what has happened,where are we towards finding a solution? Please keep us informed as to what you are doing and how we as a body can resolve the issue at hand. Its almost August lets gittr done before the first of the year Who are all the commitee members we as members need to be informed as the commitee finds answers or better yet a cure........Mike

Mike,

Right now I am waiting on the go no go on the the repair on the calibrator that John had at the Internats. In last talk that I had it can be repaired but the parts are not avaible thru a new source. I am going to get John to get the calibrator back and I am going to send it to a place that does board level repair. Randall Thomas has it right now. And we had ask him to see if he could fix it. Randall can fix it if he had the parts but like I said they are not avaible. Since Randall is working hard on the timing consoles and has his plate full that I thought that I would just get it back and see if I can get it repaired. As soon as I can get it repaired or buy a new one I will get everyone that wants to check their meter to sent it to me and I will calibrate it for them and give them a report on what I find.

Then we will start testing with some ideas that have already been talk about to see if it is even possible to do this with this device. The main thing is to try to control as many of the variables as possible. And then only just try to add to the present rule without totaly rewriting it.

The committee members are John Equi because he is such a good document keeper. Joe Warren, Doc Turner, Stu Bar, Kevin Sheren, Allen Waddle, Don Ferette, and many others. I have had four request to help on this committee today and they are all welcome. Anyone that wants to help or has any information that they feel like I can use please sent it to me. I have piles of it right now but could always use more.

The main thing is I want to fix this before the next Internats so that no other club will have to go thru the problems that your club had to endure and are still having to. And so the members will have a fare shake and not a roast that has happen with this rule.

One of the things that I do not have is a copy if the ANSI standard S 1.4. If we have to buy it it is $200.00. I am sure that someone has a copy somewhere they could donate.

Mark Bullard