IMPBA "F" class

[John Beardslee]

I think the large scale pylon racing guys have also been playing with this combo also. I think at one time Yamaha did some proto super bike engines that were abc engines and had glow plugs. Neat stuff!!!!! What were the circumstances that drove the rule changes to eliminate ignition engines from the F or X classes anyway? If we had been that exclusionary in the early days we'd all still be running ignition because glow plugs wouldn't have been allowed.

John

 

[Don Ferrette]

Don wrote: "Maybe keeping a fire extinguisher in the retrieve boat is a good thing, matter of fact I'm going to add that to the D12 meeting agenda in 2 weeks to make it a requirement in our district, thanks for the idea."No problem Don! I'm happy to help! Below is a little info I found on Lipo Fires. Some of this info is directly from an MSDS for a Lithim Polymer battery.

Electirc boat classes are growing and you may actullay see a big one in your district one day.

"The only type of Fire Extinguisher that will work on LiPo Fires is the new Class D (Yellow) Extinguisher. The problem is they are vary expensive. They average around $400.00 each."
"In case of fire where lithium ion batteries are present, flood the area with water. If any batteries are burning, water may not extinguish them, but will cool the adjacent batteries and control the spread of fire. CO2, dry chemical, and foam extinguishers are preferred for small fires, but also may not extinguish burning lithium ion batteries. Burning batteries will burn themselves out. Virtually all fires involving lithium ion batteries can be controlled with water. When water is used, however, hydrogen gas may be evolved which can form an explosive mixture with air. LITH-X (powdered graphite) or copper powder fire extinguishers, sand, dry ground dolomite or soda ash may also be used. These materials act as smothering agents."

"Note that the water route probably won't put out the fire, but it will keep adjacent batteries cool, perhaps keeping them from joining the fray.I'd say water is out.Then note that common CO2, dry chemical, and foam extinguishers -- ABC types, also probably won't put out the battery fire, but can control the other stuff around the burning battery.Left to themselves, the batteries don't burn LONG, but they DO burn HOT. Very HOT, and very explosively. Look around the web for movies, they're quite informative. A short, hot burst that in and of itself is scary, but if the battery is contained in a non-flammable environment, short lived. It's the other stuff that catches on fire in response to the battery fire that is the bigger problem."

Cute. Instead of answering my question you dig up an MSDS sheet on lithium batteries. Got news for ya Andy, we've been running FE in D12 for some time now, I've already pushed an FE cat hull over 100 and it didn't need to be even remotely close to 24 pounds either. And yes we've seen the videos where people purposely over volt and over amp lipo packs to make them catch fire, it is violent but they don't "explode". And as a matter of fact the packs will smoke extensively before they ignite, it's part of the break down process within the cells. Unlike some of you on here who just want to say everything will be fine, since I don't consider myself an expert on spark driven nitro motors (never got that far drag racing back in the day) I've been making phone calls and sending emails out to those who I would consider experts. You know people who've tuned nitro and alcohol race motors for living, built single and multi cylinder spark fired nitro motors, folks who really know what they are doing. While we are still in the research phase of this myself and some others on the BOD are not too comfortable with what we are initially hearing as far as feedback and want to look a lot harder at this before making any decisions. In the meantime if you all are going to continue testing these motors then all I can say is please be extremely careful and do not do any testing/running on any IMPBA insured ponds as if in the unfortunate instance that something does go wrong these motors are not recognized by our rules in the way you are trying to use them so not only would the IMPBA insurance not cover it, you could easily jeopardize the entire organization in terms of our coverage. And contrary to what some think getting coverage for what we do isn't like getting auto insurance, it is difficult and we are lucky to get a single policy offer each year that we can even afford. I'm done with this topic here as it's obvious you and a couple others are digging in your heals and simply do not want to hear anything or anyone who even remotely disagrees.

Have a nice day and be careful out there.

 

[Al Hobbs]

Liquid gasoline does not ignite. It is the vapor. A mixture of gasoline vapor and oxygen is what it takes for gasoline ignition. The mixture must be within a range of gasoline vapor and air. So, yes, you can put out a burning match by droppiing it into a full gasoline can. There is not enough oxygen in the vapor mixture for the gasoline to ignite. But, you can spill some of that same gasoline onto your table, and even the tiniest spark might set it off as it evaporates. An almost empty gasoline can is definitely more dangerous than a full gasoline can.

That is why modern petroleum refineries store gasoline in tanks with a floating roof.

Just because you have not had a problem yet, does not mean.it is safe. It is only relatively safe if you take precautions. Even static electricity from a nylon jacket produes enough of a spark to ignite some gasoline vapor and air mixtures.

Al Hobbs

 

[Robert Pickard]

David go look at our rules in District 3 you are not to be smoking in the pits or when purging

 

[ALLAN YUEN]

Wow Everybody watch to David

so who Pitman avoid from his boat at Dist 3

 

[bzubee]

Liquid gasoline does not ignite. It is the vapor. A mixture of gasoline vapor and oxygen is what it takes for gasoline ignition. The mixture must be within a range of gasoline vapor and air. So, yes, you can put out a burning match by droppiing it into a full gasoline can. There is not enough oxygen in the vapor mixture for the gasoline to ignite. But, you can spill some of that same gasoline onto your table, and even the tiniest spark might set it off as it evaporates. An almost empty gasoline can is definitely more dangerous than a full gasoline can.

That is why modern petroleum refineries store gasoline in tanks with a floating roof.

Just because you have not had a problem yet, does not mean.it is safe. It is only relatively safe if you take precautions. Even static electricity from a nylon jacket produes enough of a spark to ignite some gasoline vapor and air mixtures.

Al Hobbs

Exactly Al. As a retired safety officer at Redstone, I'm so tired of always hearing, "I have done that for years and nothing has ever happened!" All I can say is the odds will eventually catch up to those that challenge common sense!

 

[dwilfong]

Ya what ever you all need to take a pill or some thing.

Especially you Don you might have a break down the way this is going.

 

[dwilfong]

Jerry pitted for me at the last race and I for him.

He was more afraid of watching me drive than the cig in my mouth.

 

[RonShaw]

Dang, for a second there I thought I was in the outboard forum!!!...LOL.....

There is a lot of great conversations going on here guys. With the right parts and timing numbers, this could be an interesting deal using engines like the tiger king on methanol and nitro. Maybe the place to start would be a one year trial specialty class??????......

 

[Ray Sametz]

Dang, for a second there I thought I was in the outboard forum!!!...LOL.....

There is a lot of great conversations going on here guys. With the right parts and timing numbers, this could be an interesting deal using engines like the tiger king on methanol and nitro. Maybe the place to start would be a one year trial specialty class??????......

Only you Ron, it don't stink unless you stir it.

 

[mike walker]

This could have been really cool.If it were researched and developed and open to good advise taken in the way it was intended. But when some one has a concern it is met with a page of crap. I just don't think this is the way to get things done,

 

[Andy Brown]

Don wrote: "Maybe keeping a fire extinguisher in the retrieve boat is a good thing, matter of fact I'm going to add that to the D12 meeting agenda in 2 weeks to make it a requirement in our district, thanks for the idea."No problem Don! I'm happy to help! Below is a little info I found on Lipo Fires. Some of this info is directly from an MSDS for a Lithim Polymer battery.

Electirc boat classes are growing and you may actullay see a big one in your district one day.

"The only type of Fire Extinguisher that will work on LiPo Fires is the new Class D (Yellow) Extinguisher. The problem is they are vary expensive. They average around $400.00 each."
"In case of fire where lithium ion batteries are present, flood the area with water. If any batteries are burning, water may not extinguish them, but will cool the adjacent batteries and control the spread of fire. CO2, dry chemical, and foam extinguishers are preferred for small fires, but also may not extinguish burning lithium ion batteries. Burning batteries will burn themselves out. Virtually all fires involving lithium ion batteries can be controlled with water. When water is used, however, hydrogen gas may be evolved which can form an explosive mixture with air. LITH-X (powdered graphite) or copper powder fire extinguishers, sand, dry ground dolomite or soda ash may also be used. These materials act as smothering agents."

"Note that the water route probably won't put out the fire, but it will keep adjacent batteries cool, perhaps keeping them from joining the fray.I'd say water is out.Then note that common CO2, dry chemical, and foam extinguishers -- ABC types, also probably won't put out the battery fire, but can control the other stuff around the burning battery.Left to themselves, the batteries don't burn LONG, but they DO burn HOT. Very HOT, and very explosively. Look around the web for movies, they're quite informative. A short, hot burst that in and of itself is scary, but if the battery is contained in a non-flammable environment, short lived. It's the other stuff that catches on fire in response to the battery fire that is the bigger problem."

Cute. Instead of answering my question you dig up an MSDS sheet on lithium batteries. Got news for ya Andy, we've been running FE in D12 for some time now, I've already pushed an FE cat hull over 100 and it didn't need to be even remotely close to 24 pounds either. And yes we've seen the videos where people purposely over volt and over amp lipo packs to make them catch fire, it is violent but they don't "explode". And as a matter of fact the packs will smoke extensively before they ignite, it's part of the break down process within the cells. Unlike some of you on here who just want to say everything will be fine, since I don't consider myself an expert on spark driven nitro motors (never got that far drag racing back in the day) I've been making phone calls and sending emails out to those who I would consider experts. You know people who've tuned nitro and alcohol race motors for living, built single and multi cylinder spark fired nitro motors, folks who really know what they are doing. While we are still in the research phase of this myself and some others on the BOD are not too comfortable with what we are initially hearing as far as feedback and want to look a lot harder at this before making any decisions. In the meantime if you all are going to continue testing these motors then all I can say is please be extremely careful and do not do any testing/running on any IMPBA insured ponds as if in the unfortunate instance that something does go wrong these motors are not recognized by our rules in the way you are trying to use them so not only would the IMPBA insurance not cover it, you could easily jeopardize the entire organization in terms of our coverage. And contrary to what some think getting coverage for what we do isn't like getting auto insurance, it is difficult and we are lucky to get a single policy offer each year that we can even afford. I'm done with this topic here as it's obvious you and a couple others are digging in your heals and simply do not want to hear anything or anyone who even remotely disagrees.

Have a nice day and be careful out there.

Don, is this the question you wanted me to answer?

"How familiar are you with nitro drag bikes? It's a rather relevant question since they are very similar in cylinder design and operation. There's a reason they require extra cylinder base bolts, extra head bolts, kevlar straps over each head, no cast engine cases or cast rods to name a few. Also the driver has to disable the ignition system at the end of a run before anyone is allowed to move the bike to prevent potential explosion of nitro filled cylinders. And that is something designed to run on nitro from the start........."

Don, maybe you missed some of the details of this thread. I actually adressed the spirit of your question just two posts above the one in which you asked it. (go back and look if you wish.)

And just so you'll know. I am involved in this discussion about Spark and Nitro, ONLY because others came into this thread with ideas of running nitro and spark.

When I asked my first question to start this thread I wanted to find out if a spark engine could be run in "F"...because I could find nothing in the IMPBA rule book even though I thought I had heard that Gas boats could not run in "F". (I have not been in the loop for the past 7 years, so I am trying to get up to speed on the newest IMPBA rules.)

I asked nothing about fuel type....and I had no intention of running nitro in a spark engine...but NOW I will try a little nitro in the spark engine simply because this discussion has stirred my interest. ( I do not test at an IMPBA lake)

Don, you will find no "Push" from me to make rules concerning Nitro and Spark...I am only here as part of the discussion.

I have OTHER plans that ARE currently legal....this year anyway!

 

[Tom Foley]

What could possibly happen ? LOL

 

[dwilfong]

Way to go Tom.

Nothing like throwing fuel on the fire or should I say nitro.

 

[seaducerpete]

Face it David it could happen

 

[Grimracer]

[SIZE=medium]Im just going to say this and im sure I will get blasted for it..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Lipos are just.. well.. somewhat unassuming, aren’t they! They are a battery right!. You lay them on your desk at home, you have them stored in some plastic or metal transmitter case. What could go wrong, right?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Gasoline or nitro fuel, I guess, we have been “informed” all these years to the dangers involved. You likely do not have a gallon of nitro fuel or gasoline sitting on your desk at home.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I have been involved in Lipo testing and some lipos testing me.. yep.. we have nuked them in just about every way possible and using just about every type of containment you can think of. Having said this we have had MORE THEN ONE instance where a lipo just decided to “go up”. One time it was a small 300mah 2s pack and it lit go with quite a bang. (it was in an ammo can and the can was junk after this) The other was a 5000 3S, That took out ammo can full of good lipos with it. The quick actions of a fellow worker were needed on that 5000mah incident.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The worse was a co-workers van.. well.. that’s enough… you get the idea..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Although I cannot share the videos we have here of testing I can tell you that the best you can do is Aim the flame. (ATF). Straight up is best.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Im not trying to be the Lipo cop.. but now.. just like gas or nitro.. I hope some “informing” comes from this.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Choose your power.. be careful that’s all. I know we have MANY times more exposure to lipos then the normal user BUT.. it can AND DOES happen.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Grim[/SIZE]

 

[Chris Wood]

so i am just curious..

after 11 pages of reading this where do we stand with any of this...

 

[dwilfong]

no where as always.

 

[Andy Greene]

Dave I think its just gonna take someone doing it - proving reliability - and safety - before the conversation will ever be productive.

Andy

 

[ZZ RACING]

so i am just curious..

after 11 pages of reading this where do we stand with any of this...

The IMPBA rules state that all nitro classes will run a glow plug only and only gas for fuel with gas engines. No nitro or additives.

Chris Rupley

IMPBA President