How "Scale" is Scale

[Don Ferrette]

Mike once again you touch on what I brought up earlier about the District Scale Chairman being the first line of enforcement. But what if that DSC allows something in that district that is not necessarily legal by the national rule book? One problem we have in NAMBA is that individual districts have been allowed to pretty much do their own thing and not all conform to what is already in black and white. I'm not talking about paint or detail either I'm talking about structural and mechanical issues that are clearly covered. Oh wait then there was a boat that was allowed to run at a nationals with lead weights taped right on top of the sponson. Since he was allowed to run that way in his district he was allowed, under protest by me mind you, to run classifying it as a concourse issue. If there is a master set of rules for ALL to follow with very little wiggle room on the bare minimum requirements for the class then the enforcement should be much more simple at all levels.

Mike I understand NAMBA's take on letting Districts do there own thing.I see good things and bad things about that. But in most cases good things. National Events are a whole new ball game and id think if you want to attend a NATS you better be right with the RULE BOOK. We in District 14 Impba try to be sure everyone is playing out of the rule book. And ive not seen concerns,its when you cross the district boundry thats when a problem occurs. I packed my boat and sent it to Seattle 2 years ago looking to be scroutinized but found i was at home with the guys out there. Maybe a comittee could be formed to help police the issue of illegal or boats not IN THE SPIRIT of the class. Those 3 words mean more than any rule

Gotta play devil's advocate here- define "spirit"............. :huh:

 

[SayMikey]

Mike once again you touch on what I brought up earlier about the District Scale Chairman being the first line of enforcement. But what if that DSC allows something in that district that is not necessarily legal by the national rule book? One problem we have in NAMBA is that individual districts have been allowed to pretty much do their own thing and not all conform to what is already in black and white. I'm not talking about paint or detail either I'm talking about structural and mechanical issues that are clearly covered. Oh wait then there was a boat that was allowed to run at a nationals with lead weights taped right on top of the sponson. Since he was allowed to run that way in his district he was allowed, under protest by me mind you, to run classifying it as a concourse issue. If there is a master set of rules for ALL to follow with very little wiggle room on the bare minimum requirements for the class then the enforcement should be much more simple at all levels.

Mike I understand NAMBA's take on letting Districts do there own thing.I see good things and bad things about that. But in most cases good things. National Events are a whole new ball game and id think if you want to attend a NATS you better be right with the RULE BOOK. We in District 14 Impba try to be sure everyone is playing out of the rule book. And ive not seen concerns,its when you cross the district boundry thats when a problem occurs. I packed my boat and sent it to Seattle 2 years ago looking to be scroutinized but found i was at home with the guys out there. Maybe a comittee could be formed to help police the issue of illegal or boats not IN THE SPIRIT of the class. Those 3 words mean more than any rule

Gotta play devil's advocate here- define "spirit"............. :huh:

I knew id get flogged on this one>>>>Websters the general meaning or intent of a statement, document, etc. (opposed to letter ): the spirit of the law.<<<< I think in this statement Spirit INTENT what the originators of the class intended it to be. Id throw boats with lead weights showing out of the SPIRIT. Also improper boats eg building a off set center section when the orginal real boat was centered. Taking a t-5 hull and making a boat that was centered is NOT in the SPIRIT or INTENT of the rules. Using Lucero wings on a boat that has Bud style wings is another. I could go on all night. In the end if you want to build a Scale Unlimited we all welcome you,just do your homework first<before you build......

 

[Don Ferrette]

Mike once again you touch on what I brought up earlier about the District Scale Chairman being the first line of enforcement. But what if that DSC allows something in that district that is not necessarily legal by the national rule book? One problem we have in NAMBA is that individual districts have been allowed to pretty much do their own thing and not all conform to what is already in black and white. I'm not talking about paint or detail either I'm talking about structural and mechanical issues that are clearly covered. Oh wait then there was a boat that was allowed to run at a nationals with lead weights taped right on top of the sponson. Since he was allowed to run that way in his district he was allowed, under protest by me mind you, to run classifying it as a concourse issue. If there is a master set of rules for ALL to follow with very little wiggle room on the bare minimum requirements for the class then the enforcement should be much more simple at all levels.

Mike I understand NAMBA's take on letting Districts do there own thing.I see good things and bad things about that. But in most cases good things. National Events are a whole new ball game and id think if you want to attend a NATS you better be right with the RULE BOOK. We in District 14 Impba try to be sure everyone is playing out of the rule book. And ive not seen concerns,its when you cross the district boundry thats when a problem occurs. I packed my boat and sent it to Seattle 2 years ago looking to be scroutinized but found i was at home with the guys out there. Maybe a comittee could be formed to help police the issue of illegal or boats not IN THE SPIRIT of the class. Those 3 words mean more than any rule

Gotta play devil's advocate here- define "spirit"............. :huh:

I knew id get flogged on this one>>>>Websters the general meaning or intent of a statement, document, etc. (opposed to letter ): the spirit of the law.<<<< I think in this statement Spirit INTENT what the originators of the class intended it to be. Id throw boats with lead weights showing out of the SPIRIT. Also improper boats eg building a off set center section when the orginal real boat was centered. Taking a t-5 hull and making a boat that was centered is NOT in the SPIRIT or INTENT of the rules. Using Lucero wings on a boat that has Bud style wings is another. I could go on all night. In the end if you want to build a Scale Unlimited we all welcome you,just do your homework first<before you build......

Absolutely my good friend but you know someone out there will have"issues" because it is a "judgment" call.

 

[Mike McKnight]

Mike I've been to race in Washington too but that is a little different situation at the NWSC . Don't misunderstand what I am suggesting. I am all for the local DSC having autonomy BUT it should be using the national rule book as the basis. I have no problem with expanding them but not superceding them. Otherwise why do we go to all the trouble to draft up a set of rules at the national level if individual DSCs are allowed pick and choose what they want to enforce or not enforce. Most of those rules were written with a "Spirit" or "Intent" of the class. That practice has perpetuated this question and it is not exclusive to NAMBA either.

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

This thread hurts my head,

Throw the "pretty" boats in the water, and lets race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bill Gibson]

This thread hurts my head,Throw the "pretty" boats in the water, and lets race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BAM!!!!

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Example, IMPBA dosent even mention the "Master Hull Roster" in its rules, so how or why should anybody abide by them ?

That is no longer correct as that is a part I re-wrote (among other changes) in the new scale rules that were published multiple times in previous Roostertails and were 1 year trial for 2007-1. All models must be of a real unlimited hydroplane as listed in the APBA Master Hull Roster list.

The model owner must show the real boat attempted to qualify, qualified or raced in an actual

sanctioned racing event, in the configuration being modeled, via photographic and/or written

documentation. Failure to adequately meet the validation requirements can result in the model

not being allowed to compete in an IMPBA event until proper documentation is obtained.

You did bring up an interesting situation though, in all other "Scale" competition there is the "builder of the model rule". Not taking anything away from yourself, from what I've seen you're quite a craftsman and I envy your paint work, it's beautiful! But you painted a boat for someone else to win concourse with. In most "concourse" or "static" type model competition the owner must be able to prove he did the work.

This has always been a part of 1/8 scale that kinda rubs me the wrong way. I'd like to see something like this or at least a significant point deduction during Concours judging for not being the builder/painter but I certainly won't hold my breath on that one.....

Don,

Where did you get the paragraph from in IMPBA (above 1. Alll Models ...... ) ??

I looked on line and couldnt find it ?

 

[Don Ferrette]

Don,Where did you get the paragraph from in IMPBA (above 1. Alll Models ...... ) ??

I looked on line and couldnt find it ?

Yeah I noticed that too, seems the web site updates are a tad behind?

It's been in numerous Roostertails but here it is in full right from Sept. '07 issue during the one year trial-

See Pages H-4 thru H-6 in the current March 2006 Rule Book, make the following five (5)

selected changes:

Existing

Registration Procedures

2. g. $5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The registrant

will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration. Approved form

must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for high point district

trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.

#1 - Change to read:

2. g. $5.00 annual District registration fee to be submitted upon completion of model & prior to it

competing in any sanctioned event. Purpose of fees-monies is to cover registration printing

costs & postage fees. A boat registered in one District may race in any District.

Existing

Engine and Boat Specifications, See # 1, Add to #3.d., See #7:

1. All boats to be modeled after Unlimited hydroplanes from past or present.

#2 - Change to read:

1. All models must be of a real unlimited hydroplane as listed in the APBA Master Hull Roster list.

The model owner must show the real boat attempted to qualify, qualified or raced in an actual

sanctioned racing event, in the configuration being modeled, via photographic and/or written

documentation. Failure to adequately meet the validation requirements can result in the model

not being allowed to compete in an IMPBA event until proper documentation is obtained.

#3 - Add the following as 3. d.

3. d. Minimum 50% of glow engine crankcase (flywheel is not considered part of crankcase) must

be concealed with fake engine or cowling as per prototype boat.

Existing

7. The drive dog must not extend beyond the transom unless the prototype boat did so.

#4 - Change to read:

7. The drive dog must not extend beyond the transom unless the prototype's strut and/or drive

dog did so. Photo documentation may be requested for proof by race CD or district scale director.

Racing Rules

#5 - Change Rule #11 on page H-6 to read as follows

11. Normal heat racing rules can be used as optional racing format however each heat will be

limited to no more than 6 boats raced together at any one time. International Regatta racing

will revert to regular heat racing rules for Scale US-1 with the same 6 boat per heat limit.

 

[Tom Kelly]

I think we are a little closer to a common understanding on this topic.

1) Nobody wants to chase away a new boater with a bunch of rules.

2) We all want to "throw them in and let's race".

3) There is plenty of information available, including this site, to gather enough information to build a boat as correct as possible. I don't mean rivot counts or how the gauges we arranged on the dash, just the correct size, shape, and paint scheme. Joe was spot on with his input.

4) There are plenty of guy that will help you. Everyone I have ever met at a race was more than willing to answer questions that I had.

5) Taking some of the "gray areas" out the rule book would help. But as we have seen, the wording of these rules is very important.

Thanks Joe for chiming in on this. You were always a great source of information in our district. I sure you will spoil those Florida guy's too.

Another point is that the rules should be the same in every district. If someone travels to another district with a boat that is legal in his district, then get's turn away because it's not legal, it causes more conflict.

 

[larcor69]

Tom, thanks for starting such a great topic!!, I think it has opened a few eye's!!, all in all, it's FUN!!! and thats why we do this..Corey

 

[Douglas P Shepherd]

Tom, thanks for starting such a great topic!!, I think it has opened a few eye's!!, all in all, it's FUN!!! and thats why we do this..Corey

O.K The statement that "SayMikey said" Taking a boat that was centered is NOT in the SPIRIT or INTENT of the rules. O.k with that being said If you take a T4 and run it without a rear upper Horizontal. Where is the difference within the rules? I have been told, that if I bring a T4 to a race it better have a horizanal wing on it. I clearly have a pic showing the hull running without the wing on it. Where is the pic showing a newer style hull with a articulated front wing on it (other than the older U6 and the rebuilt U-13 & the old U8 hull as well) racing with a offset in it. Where is the Word Intent and or Not in the spirit Start and stop? I think 8 pages ago Tom Kelly was asking the very same thing.

 

[SayMikey]

Tom, thanks for starting such a great topic!!, I think it has opened a few eye's!!, all in all, it's FUN!!! and thats why we do this..Corey

O.K The statement that "SayMikey said" Taking a boat that was centered is NOT in the SPIRIT or INTENT of the rules. O.k with that being said If you take a T4 and run it without a rear upper Horizontal. Where is the difference within the rules? I have been told, that if I bring a T4 to a race it better have a horizanal wing on it. I clearly have a pic showing the hull running without the wing on it. Where is the pic showing a newer style hull with a articulated front wing on it (other than the older U6 and the rebuilt U-13) racing with a offset in it. Where is the Word Intent and or Not in the spirit Start and stop? I think 8 pages ago Tom Kelly was asking the very same thing.

I prefer the t-4 without the wing,Roy Munoz in RCU has a pic of his boat without it.

 

[Douglas P Shepherd]

Tom, thanks for starting such a great topic!!, I think it has opened a few eye's!!, all in all, it's FUN!!! and thats why we do this..Corey

O.K The statement that "SayMikey said" Taking a boat that was centered is NOT in the SPIRIT or INTENT of the rules. O.k with that being said If you take a T4 and run it without a rear upper Horizontal. Where is the difference within the rules? I have been told, that if I bring a T4 to a race it better have a horizanal wing on it. I clearly have a pic showing the hull running without the wing on it. Where is the pic showing a newer style hull with a articulated front wing on it (other than the older U6 and the rebuilt U-13) racing with a offset in it. Where is the Word Intent and or Not in the spirit Start and stop? I think 8 pages ago Tom Kelly was asking the very same thing.

I prefer the t-4 without the wing,Roy Munoz in RCU has a pic of his boat without it.

I prefer the hull that way as well.I have found that my DPS-T4 is 3 to 4 mph faster without it!

 

[LarryConrad]

Don,Where did you get the paragraph from in IMPBA (above 1. Alll Models ...... ) ??

I looked on line and couldnt find it ?

Yeah I noticed that too, seems the web site updates are a tad behind?

It's been in numerous Roostertails but here it is in full right from Sept. '07 issue during the one year trial-

See Pages H-4 thru H-6 in the current March 2006 Rule Book, make the following five (5)

selected changes:

Existing

Registration Procedures

2. g. $5.00 initial registration fee and a $3.00 annual renewal fee due by March 1. The registrant

will receive a District Chairman approved form verifying current registration. Approved form

must be brought to all contests. Purpose of fee-monies will be used for high point district

trophy, postage, printing costs, and other expenses incurred.

#1 - Change to read:

2. g. $5.00 annual District registration fee to be submitted upon completion of model & prior to it

competing in any sanctioned event. Purpose of fees-monies is to cover registration printing

costs & postage fees. A boat registered in one District may race in any District.

Existing

Engine and Boat Specifications, See # 1, Add to #3.d., See #7:

1. All boats to be modeled after Unlimited hydroplanes from past or present.

#2 - Change to read:

1. All models must be of a real unlimited hydroplane as listed in the APBA Master Hull Roster list.

The model owner must show the real boat attempted to qualify, qualified or raced in an actual

sanctioned racing event, in the configuration being modeled, via photographic and/or written

documentation. Failure to adequately meet the validation requirements can result in the model

not being allowed to compete in an IMPBA event until proper documentation is obtained.

#3 - Add the following as 3. d.

3. d. Minimum 50% of glow engine crankcase (flywheel is not considered part of crankcase) must

be concealed with fake engine or cowling as per prototype boat.

Existing

7. The drive dog must not extend beyond the transom unless the prototype boat did so.

#4 - Change to read:

7. The drive dog must not extend beyond the transom unless the prototype's strut and/or drive

dog did so. Photo documentation may be requested for proof by race CD or district scale director.

Racing Rules

#5 - Change Rule #11 on page H-6 to read as follows

11. Normal heat racing rules can be used as optional racing format however each heat will be

limited to no more than 6 boats raced together at any one time. International Regatta racing

will revert to regular heat racing rules for Scale US-1 with the same 6 boat per heat limit.

The March 2008 version of the IMPBA rule book has the scale rules updated in it.

Larry

 

[Andy Greene]

This thread hurts my head,Throw the "pretty" boats in the water, and lets race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BAM!!!!

Yep

Mind if I leave my rear wing off Rick ? I can't afford to replace it-LOL

Besides, I think it looks cool without it

Andy

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

This thread hurts my head,Throw the "pretty" boats in the water, and lets race!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BAM!!!!

Yep

Mind if I leave my rear wing off Rick ? I can't afford to replace it-LOL

Besides, I think it looks cool without it

Andy

As Doug said, Have a picture of it running that way? Then go ahead, if ya don't. NOPE

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Tom, thanks for starting such a great topic!!, I think it has opened a few eye's!!, all in all, it's FUN!!! and thats why we do this..Corey

O.K The statement that "SayMikey said" Taking a boat that was centered is NOT in the SPIRIT or INTENT of the rules. O.k with that being said If you take a T4 and run it without a rear upper Horizontal. Where is the difference within the rules? I have been told, that if I bring a T4 to a race it better have a horizanal wing on it. I clearly have a pic showing the hull running without the wing on it. Where is the pic showing a newer style hull with a articulated front wing on it (other than the older U6 and the rebuilt U-13) racing with a offset in it. Where is the Word Intent and or Not in the spirit Start and stop? I think 8 pages ago Tom Kelly was asking the very same thing.

I prefer the t-4 without the wing,Roy Munoz in RCU has a pic of his boat without it.

I prefer the hull that way as well.I have found that my DPS-T4 is 3 to 4 mph faster without it!

Well see, this gets back to my earlier post, DONT build broken boats, Doug, you gotta know why it ran that way correct ?

(without the horizontal wing).

 

[Bigbird]

Tom, thanks for starting such a great topic!!, I think it has opened a few eye's!!, all in all, it's FUN!!! and thats why we do this..Corey

O.K The statement that "SayMikey said" Taking a boat that was centered is NOT in the SPIRIT or INTENT of the rules. O.k with that being said If you take a T4 and run it without a rear upper Horizontal. Where is the difference within the rules? I have been told, that if I bring a T4 to a race it better have a horizanal wing on it. I clearly have a pic showing the hull running without the wing on it. Where is the pic showing a newer style hull with a articulated front wing on it (other than the older U6 and the rebuilt U-13) racing with a offset in it. Where is the Word Intent and or Not in the spirit Start and stop? I think 8 pages ago Tom Kelly was asking the very same thing.

I prefer the t-4 without the wing,Roy Munoz in RCU has a pic of his boat without it.

I prefer the hull that way as well.I have found that my DPS-T4 is 3 to 4 mph faster without it!

Well see, this gets back to my earlier post, DONT build broken boats, Doug, you gotta know why it ran that way correct ?

(without the horizontal wing).

The Bud t4 without a wing is not a broken boat. It was run that way to see if it would handle better unlike the Circus that ran without a wing because the wing was damaged. There is a big difference. OH, by the way, this is a hobbie that is supposed to be FUN. Remember that the next time someone comes to your race and some of you guys won't let them run because they are not up to your standards.

BB

 

[Mike McKnight]

The Bud T-4 was a broken boat. They broke several wings that day. That's a subject that has been covered almost as much as THE BOAT.

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Tom, thanks for starting such a great topic!!, I think it has opened a few eye's!!, all in all, it's FUN!!! and thats why we do this..Corey

O.K The statement that "SayMikey said" Taking a boat that was centered is NOT in the SPIRIT or INTENT of the rules. O.k with that being said If you take a T4 and run it without a rear upper Horizontal. Where is the difference within the rules? I have been told, that if I bring a T4 to a race it better have a horizanal wing on it. I clearly have a pic showing the hull running without the wing on it. Where is the pic showing a newer style hull with a articulated front wing on it (other than the older U6 and the rebuilt U-13) racing with a offset in it. Where is the Word Intent and or Not in the spirit Start and stop? I think 8 pages ago Tom Kelly was asking the very same thing.

I prefer the t-4 without the wing,Roy Munoz in RCU has a pic of his boat without it.

I prefer the hull that way as well.I have found that my DPS-T4 is 3 to 4 mph faster without it!

Well see, this gets back to my earlier post, DONT build broken boats, Doug, you gotta know why it ran that way correct ?

(without the horizontal wing).

The Bud t4 without a wing is not a broken boat. It was run that way to see if it would handle better unlike the Circus that ran without a wing because the wing was damaged. There is a big difference. OH, by the way, this is a hobbie that is supposed to be FUN. Remember that the next time someone comes to your race and some of you guys won't let them run because they are not up to your standards.

BB

Gee, I think I see a tear, or a pout in the paragraph..........