How "Scale" is Scale

[Don Ferrette]

So you guys playing BINGO will be the first ones to volunteer to be the scale police in your area to insure absolute strict and unwavering enforcement of the scale rules right?

I'm all for making these boats correct as possible but at the same time let's not run off a new guy wanting to join the ranks of a class that already takes a serious level of commitment, time not to mention cash outlay to even consider running. I like the idea of it starting off with contact with the area scale director as getting someone pointed in the right direction is half the battle. Plus a well spoken lay out of the rules often comes across better than just reading it in black and white since you can explain it as you go.

And Greg- I stumbled upon a web site that showed a guy who had wound up with a B-17 you had built, very nice. The B-17 was always one of my all time favorites. B)

 

[Greg Hahn]

So you guys playing BINGO will be the first ones to volunteer to be the scale police in your area to insure absolute strict and unwavering enforcement of the scale rules right?
I'm all for making these boats correct as possible but at the same time let's not run off a new guy wanting to join the ranks of a class that already takes a serious level of commitment, time not to mention cash outlay to even consider running. I like the idea of it starting off with contact with the area scale director as getting someone pointed in the right direction is half the battle. Plus a well spoken lay out of the rules often comes across better than just reading it in black and white since you can explain it as you go.

And Greg- I stumbled upon a web site that showed a guy who had wound up with a B-17 you had built, very nice. The B-17 was always one of my all time favorites. B)

Don, actually compared to other "Scale" rule books (helicopter, Airplanes), boating allows quite a bit of lattitude. +/- 10% is a decent margin, there's no "approved" color chip book that must be used, and no three view outline requirement.

In these parts most of the scale boats currently racing either come from one of the glass guys (Phil T,Joe M etc.) or scratched from Newton plans. The new guy or gal really doesnt' have anything to be afraid of. From what I've seen so far the boats and plans readily available are all within the margin.

I do agree that we don't want to run anyone off and a thick rule book is one quick way of accomplishing that. But we don't want the rules watered down to the point the class looses it's reason for being.

Personally I think the Scale rules for both sanctioning bodies have struck a very good happy medium. In some areas a better definition may be in order but overall it's pretty easy to work with.

As was stated earlier in this thread there's something in Scale for everyone. For the racer guy, build it close, paint it close and go race. For the detail guy, add the whistles and bells and go for concourse.

Thanks, B-17's are my fav also, watched too much 12 o'clock high as a kid!!

gh

 

[Don Ferrette]

Thanks, B-17's are my fav also, watched too much 12 o'clock high as a kid!!gh

LMAO!!! I remember haulin' tail from school to get home in time to watch 12 O'clock High, that's just too damn funny. Got a soft spot for the movie Memphis Belle too.

We are on the right track with the scale rules, they have come a long way from what they were. Are they perfect? Nope, but we are not done yet and they will be as good as we can get them without choking the life out of the class. B)

 

[Mike McKnight]

Man is has been interesting reading all of this. I have been pretty much out of boating for a while now but I still lurk here from time to time to see what is up and I was kind of wondering when this topic was going to come around again. This and the old THE BOAT debate always seem to cycle around every so often and it had been a while since this one had surfaced.

I used to ask people why they got into scale. Especially ones that really didn't know much about the real boats. More often than not I was told that they wanted to model a real boat and that it was fun to try and make it look like a real boat. Some even took it a step further and said they liked the history of the real boats and the challenge of collecting the information necessary to make their favorite boat. I always loved that one because that was right in my wheelhouse. I was even told a few times that they liked being part of a class that had the aspect of modeling real boats it was different than all the rest and that they like having that distinction of being part of a "Gentleman's Class". Now granted there are a few that race it as just another class and have no idea of what I'm talking about and that's ok as long as they can be held to the same standards. But they aren't

In my tenure as District 9 Scale Chairman then as the NAMBA Scale Chairman I can't remember how many times I had this discussion on an individual level. The thing I couldn't help but think that it would be so nice if there could be one set of rules and procedures for Scale. It was funny because that was also echoed by some IMPBA folks I spoke with occasionally and even Roger Newton and I had that discussion the last time I was in Washington a year and a half ago. We even both agreed that it something that we probably wouldn't see in our lifetime. Little did I know how short his would be following that conversation. Now that being said let's not turn this into discussion of unification of organizations. One thing that all of our organizations are very good at is agreeing to disgagree and that has led to to some rather rediculous decisions in my opinion.

But if Scale is going to survive in whatever form be it nitro or gas. There HAS to be some revisions of the rules. There are entirely too many areas that are gray or there is just a hole period. That allows some to try and skirt the rules because there isn't a clear definition. You can't really say you want the intent and integrity to be at a certain level when the rules will not support it in some key areas. Now any of you that know me know that I am a scale purist, but I am also a realist. I know that there are some things that are going to nearly impossible to enforce. But when you have selective enforcement and some organizations that allow the Districts to supercede national rules it is a recipe for disaster. Especially when all those boats that run in direct contravention of the national rulebook at the district level because they passed their own rules show up for a Nationals. When I was the NAMBA Scale Chairman I was actually overruled on an issue being told it was a "Concourse Issue" when it was clearly a performance enhancement that in no way resembled anything on the real boat. That particular boat has been allowed to run that way in the owner's home district so I was told to allow it. How can there be integrity in the class when this is allowed to happen? It leads to a lot of heated arguments. I've witnessed and even been a part of some. Thus perpetuating the "How Scale is Scale" argument further.

I didn't mean to make this read like a rant or airing of dirty laundry but now that I am somewhat outside the hobby now I am going call it what it is. It will probably never be perfect but it can be better than it is. Just ask youself...how much would you like to put this "How Scale is Scale" argument to rest or at least take the steam out of it? Well then let's get serious and fix the rules so that you can have a minimum level of integrity and still be attractive to new boaters. I still have a passion for this class if it can be done better and it can be done if you want it enough. Now that I've walked into the middle of the room and lit the rag on the gas can and left have fun with it.

 

[Tom Kelly]

Now this discussion is in the right direction. What if you took a little of what Roger said and added a little of what Don has said. To icurage a new scale boater, let them build his/her boat under the guidance of a mentor within their district. I'm sure that any of the expierenced scale guys would be glad to help someone new. Let the new person build their boat to the best of their abilities and race a season under "Rookie Status". Any errors or underthoughts could be explained to this person over the course of the rookie season and this new person would learn "on the job", so to speak. With all this new knowledge, I sure that the next boat that this person builds would be much improve.

Your thoughts?

 

[Greg Hahn]

Now this discussion is in the right direction. What if you took a little of what Roger said and added a little of what Don has said. To icurage a new scale boater, let them build his/her boat under the guidance of a mentor within their district. I'm sure that any of the expierenced scale guys would be glad to help someone new. Let the new person build their boat to the best of their abilities and race a season under "Rookie Status". Any errors or underthoughts could be explained to this person over the course of the rookie season and this new person would learn "on the job", so to speak. With all this new knowledge, I sure that the next boat that this person builds would be much improve.
Your thoughts?

Good points and ideas Tom

One serious problem we have to get over, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is exactly what this thread asks. "what is scale"??

To determine what is scale we have a master hull roster with dimensions and at best a few bad old photos of the real boat, usually sitting in the water (as the rules state it must) so there's no proof of what the bottom looks like. The only good documentation I've seen available, is for boats less than 15 years old. So when the rules start getting into things like belly pans, sponson shapes, and offsets, there needs to be some good photos available to prove what you built was accurate.

We can only be as accurate as the available documentation allows us to be. So until we can get Three views, good photos and other info EASILY accessable for the new and old guy to build from. I don't see how the rules could get any more demanding. And in my opinion some of the rules are too demanding for the documentation that is available.

gh

 

[darby96]

Hey Mike

Glad to see you are still in here. You are right the rule book does say that you race what you show in concourse so therefore if you take off engine covers wings etc, or add anything to the deck of the boat (or above the water line) that boat should not be allowed to run in any heat competition. Build your boat to scale + or- 10% and build it so parts don't fall off (if they do you get 6th place points) unless this was caused by a collission with another boat "heaven forbid". All Districts should follow the mother organization's rules. It may enhance them but not conflict or deminish them. The Local scale chairman should measure the boat for length, width, and girth. Also he or she should check the boat for color scheme and configuration. This would allow at the nationals for the scale judges to check stand-off by looking at the boat 6' off and follow the scheme inspection with the picture the scale contestant show with the boat. The statement "if it allowed in a district it would be allowed at the nats" would open up a hornets nest and have to many conflicts. For Pete's sake this is scale be proud of what you bring to race. I do understand there are those that can't can't do as well as others and also the boat you use throughout the year at local races get scars from the daily grind but clean them up for the nats. "Love the Rookie Class idea" for the first year.

DaveB

 

[sport hydro]

I have been reading this thread and now I'm wondering if the boat I'm building will be allowed to run. I started with the Dumas Circus-Circus kit, building per the instructions. It is painted as the 1988 Miller High Life U-31. I have read here that the Dumas hulls don't always meet the roster dimensions. I'm have not done any measuring yet but if it don't meet a particular dim. does that mean I have to scrape the hull and start over? I'm talking what if a measurement is say +/-12% instead of the 10%.

The boat is finished up to the point of clearing it and assembling all the hardware. I tried to get the paint as close to the Newton plans and did get the right colors from another boater that finished his boat in the same scheme. I'd hate to have spent over a year on the boat only to be told I can't race it.

 

[darby96]

If it dosen't meet scale you can always race it as a sport 60 boat.

But to scarp it shouldn't be a option. I think most of the time for measurements sake you can modify it to make meet the criteira.

Make the measurements and then lets figure out what to do

DaveB

 

[Greg Hahn]

I have been reading this thread and now I'm wondering if the boat I'm building will be allowed to run. I started with the Dumas Circus-Circus kit, building per the instructions. It is painted as the 1988 Miller High Life U-31. I have read here that the Dumas hulls don't always meet the roster dimensions. I'm have not done any measuring yet but if it don't meet a particular dim. does that mean I have to scrape the hull and start over? I'm talking what if a measurement is say +/-12% instead of the 10%.The boat is finished up to the point of clearing it and assembling all the hardware. I tried to get the paint as close to the Newton plans and did get the right colors from another boater that finished his boat in the same scheme. I'd hate to have spent over a year on the boat only to be told I can't race it.

Ed,

From my measurments of a completed Dumas kit you're ok. I campaigned your very boat last year in district 4 IMPBA without a problem. The only issue was proving the rear shoes under the transom. I do have a pix showing the shoes in place.

Nice handling boat good luck with it.

gh

 

[Ray Sametz]

IMHO, if you need a mentor to build a scale it's right here "IW". Growing up in the Northeast not much of a history in watching real Unlimiteds. I have aways loved the class and the boat I picked to build never won a race. It caught my eye, and I said that's the one. Mike said it, for me it's the hunt for info to do it right and the build. Ask alot of questions and it will meet the criteria. B) B)

 

[darby96]

I thought rear shoes under the boat (basically below the water line was okay?

DaveB <_<

 

[P THOMAS]

I have been reading this thread and now I'm wondering if the boat I'm building will be allowed to run. I started with the Dumas Circus-Circus kit, building per the instructions. It is painted as the 1988 Miller High Life U-31. I have read here that the Dumas hulls don't always meet the roster dimensions. I'm have not done any measuring yet but if it don't meet a particular dim. does that mean I have to scrape the hull and start over? I'm talking what if a measurement is say +/-12% instead of the 10%.The boat is finished up to the point of clearing it and assembling all the hardware. I tried to get the paint as close to the Newton plans and did get the right colors from another boater that finished his boat in the same scheme. I'd hate to have spent over a year on the boat only to be told I can't race it.

You can look up the hull number on the master hull roster and check for sure but I bet the lenght and width are ok.

Look up NAMBA and go to scale, the roster is listed there in a pdf format by the year and U# the boat was first built as.

Here it is for you

2007 NAMBA 1/8 Scale Unlimited Hydroplane Master Hull Roster

HULL YEAR U-# BOAT NAME # 87 U00 hull

8700 87 U-00 MILLER AMERICAN 29 - 6 LENGTH 13 - 6 WIDTH 7 - 4 TUNNEL 2 - 4 DEPTH 16 - 3 A.P.L.

88 U-31 MISS CIRCUS CIRCUS

88 U-31 MILLER HIGH LIFE

89,90 U-31 MISS CIRCUS CIRCUS PICKLEFORK DEPTH 132 INCHES

From the IMPBA rules Not the same as Namba

2. All boats to be built to a scale of 1 1/2" to 1'0" (1/8 scale)

plus or minus 10% of the beam and 5% of the length.

29.5 feet x 1.5 = 44.25 +- 5% 42" to 46.46" will be ok length

Check with the scale director dist 4, Dave Preusse I think.

 

[sport hydro]

Thanks Greg and Phil. Greg, I saw your Budwiser boat at Mendota last year. Nice. I do have the pic your talking about. It shows the boat being craned out of the water.

Phil, I believe Ken Stang took over as D4 Scale director so I'll check with him.

 

[Mike McKnight]

One serious problem we have to get over, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is exactly what this thread asks. "what is scale"??

Greg we have a pretty definitive answer as to what that is with regards to dimensions. There have been variations allowed in dimensions and the belly pans to enhance the handling of these boats because if they were EXACT to scale some wouldn't handle well at all since the power plants we use are not scale in power and speed by any means. From my reading of this thread there are a number of people that are nitpicking others to death regarding detail as to what would be legal and what would not. I had to caution District Scale Chairman to make sure they are only enforcing what it in black and white in the rules unless it was such an obvious difference than the real boat that the representation was not correct. My issues lie with phrases like "as well as possible" or "to the best of ability". Too many have tried to hide behind these to not conceal on engine or a pipe when either they or another have done it successfully before. In my opinion there are entirely too many boats that do not have the engine or pipe concealed properly and I'm told that now there is an effort to try and change that rule to allow partially exposed engines and pipes in one organization's rules. IMHO that's not acceptable. Change the boat not the rulebook. Don't change the class to appease someone that doesn't want to do it right like others have already done.

Dave, the bottom of the boat must be the same general appearance as that of the real boat. The only exceptions are an articulated shaft and you may modify the ride surfaces of the sponsons(NAMBA) but the sponsons must have the same general appearance otherwise. A boat may only have rear shoes if the real boat had them.

Sport hydro your boat should be legal with dimensions the only thing you need to be careful of with that boat is the appearance of the rear section of the cowl. Consult with your Scale Chairman and if he can't help you I will as much as I can as I have one of those hulls somewhere. In fact I think I sent you pics of that boat didn't I?

The biggest complaint that I have is that there are boats that are being allowed to run with motors and pipes that are not concealed as well as possible. We also have boats that are being allowed to run with lead weights taped to the deck and it being called a "Concourse Issue". I had one issue where someone was protesting a Llumar boat because he said that the year of the boat the Llumar driver was representing was wrong because it didn't have the checkerboards on the cockpit spar the year it had rear shoes. His argument was that he had a poster of the boat but he couldn't verify what year the poster pic was taken and I had video of that year showing the boat was correct. There are people being so nitpicky it is killing this class. If there is an obvious structural issue then fine but to nitpick because a shade of color is not exact is stupid but it is happening otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this.

 

[sport hydro]

Mike,

Are you refering to the opening behind the scoop? I have noticed that there are different rear cowl sections.

Which one would be correct.

?I think I attached pics.

 

[Andy Greene]

I hate to get blasted for asking a stupid question, But ...

In reference to the Dumas kit and belly pan mod's-

If the boat was built to original Dumas plans , then had the belly pan modded to reduce the air trap-

does this play into to the discussion ? Will it be legal Namba ?? (if nit picked)

Sorry for the newb Scale question....

Andy

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

I hate to get blasted for asking a stupid question, But ...
In reference to the Dumas kit and belly pan mod's-

If the boat was built to original Dumas plans , then had the belly pan modded to reduce the air trap-

does this play into to the discussion ? Will it be legal Namba ?? (if nit picked)

Sorry for the newb Scale question....

Andy

Don't much matter, this shuttle will never make it to the launch pad

And you were saying?????????? earlier

 

[Andy Greene]

I hate to get blasted for asking a stupid question, But ...
In reference to the Dumas kit and belly pan mod's-

If the boat was built to original Dumas plans , then had the belly pan modded to reduce the air trap-

does this play into to the discussion ? Will it be legal Namba ?? (if nit picked)

Sorry for the newb Scale question....

Andy

Don't much matter, this shuttle will never make it to the launch pad

And you were saying?????????? earlier

Sport 60 - again - Geeze you scale guys are slow <_<

BTW its getting close ...... A little extra time on my hands lately

But really , anyone but "The Mouth of South Fl" care to answer

Andy

 

[Mike McKnight]

No problem Drew here is the place to be able to ask a question without getting blasted. There used to be a belly pan dimension in the NAMBA Scale Rules but it has been removed. The Dumas belly pan should be ok since it resembles the original boat sort of. It needs to be longer but max depth should be less than .75in. The max dimensions used to be the same as the RCU rule. Check with you District Chairman or the National Chair as I am not in charge of that anymore.

Yeah Ed as long as that cowl vent is like the pic and not like the stock Dumas kit you're alright. Seems a lot of those were done with the flat open non-vaned vent like the Circus and that is a common structural mistake.