How "Scale" is Scale

[Don Ferrette]

.....and, in every case so far, illegal boats are no accident.

Now there's one for Ray's "quote of the week" line! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Mike Cathey]

Olly Douglas has taken the time to write up a very good proposal for just this very issue. I'd like to present it to the Board this next meeting.
Thanks,

Steve Ball

Rivet counting??? :huh: Geeeeeez!!

Yea, I know

can you imagine an entire four oz. bottle of glue, laid out one drop at a time??? been there/ done that

Back to the rules thing though, there's one thing I would change with IMPBA rules. "A Scale boat should have to finish the race with all the parts it started the race with". I watched a boat last year pickup at least 5 mph when it shed the cowling! That shouldn't be allowed to happen. my two

gh

Good idea about penalty for loose parts. Loose parts are a hazard to all boats. I would say penalty unless you really get run over and damaged. If you lose a part because of a hit bouy or blow off and keep going, the part wasnt attached well enough and it is your fault.

Hi Phil,

In Unlimiteds Northwest the rule in the preliminary heats if you lose a part from your boat you get 6th place points UNLESS it was from what was judged to be a racing incident where no penalties are assessed (as in 2 boats going for the same piece of water), or if you lose parts from another boat running over you. If something falls off, you hit a buoy, roll, spin out, go in a hole or blow over and lose parts, you get the ticket.

In a winner take all final heat if you have parts fall off you get 6th place points AND 6th place finishing position regardless of the order the boat comes across the finish line. We in fact had this exact scenario play out at one of our races last year. A guy lost his cowling during the final and even though he was the first guy acoss the finish line, he placed sixth and the second boat to complete 5 laps was declared the winner.

In an all points race, getting 6th place points is usually the kiss of death anyway.

It's always a good thing to remind people about this rule at the driver's meeting and right before the connie and final heats. If I make it to the final I always slap a piece of radio box tape over the cowl just to make sure it doesn't go anywhere. Crappy way to lose a race.

 

[Ray Sametz]

Couple of questions, on the boat I'm building the RCU MHR has the depth at 2'-3" plus 10% = 3.7125 inches. The Newton Plans have the depth of 4.125 inches. So technically speaking the hull is illegal. Also the APL is 17' on Namba MHR and 19' on the RCU MHR. APL works for RCU but would be too long in Namba????? What to do????? B) B)

Hi Ray! You may have noticed that hull depth isn't always listed & in fact may be only a good guess in some instances. The use of hd dimensions in the R/CU & UNW hull rosters was intended to give builders as much info as possible. It is simple to measure on a set of plans, difficult to measure on a built model & almost impossible to measure on a proto-type. If you look at the side view of your plans, the last 6 to 12" of the bottom is flat & presumably level. Hull depth is measured from there to the highest point of the curvature of the deck. See if that works for your boat. As far as running in different sanctions, I guess it would have to be the modeler's resposibility to make sure he has a hull that will satisfy all requirements. I hope I don't seem callous, but my club experience has been that legal boats are easy to design and build and, in every case so far, illegal boats are no accident. Above all else, I hope you enjoy the process!

Larry K

Larry, that measurement is 3.250 which is well within the limits. Thanks Ray

 

[P THOMAS]

Good idea about penalty for loose parts. Loose parts are a hazard to all boats. I would say penalty unless you really get run over and damaged. If you lose a part because of a hit bouy or blow off and keep going, the part wasnt attached well enough and it is your fault.

I don't think so Phil, this is one point I guess you & I disagree. In the instance I referred to it was the large chunk of buoy that knocked my cowl off.

Ha you would tell the judge,, that tree ran out in front of you :lol:

 

[Don Ferrette]

Good idea about penalty for loose parts. Loose parts are a hazard to all boats. I would say penalty unless you really get run over and damaged. If you lose a part because of a hit bouy or blow off and keep going, the part wasnt attached well enough and it is your fault.

I don't think so Phil, this is one point I guess you & I disagree. In the instance I referred to it was the large chunk of buoy that knocked my cowl off.

Ha you would tell the judge,, that tree ran out in front of you :lol:

Whatever Phil. No sense wasting anymore words here with you......... <_<

 

[P THOMAS]

Good idea about penalty for loose parts. Loose parts are a hazard to all boats. I would say penalty unless you really get run over and damaged. If you lose a part because of a hit bouy or blow off and keep going, the part wasnt attached well enough and it is your fault.

I don't think so Phil, this is one point I guess you & I disagree. In the instance I referred to it was the large chunk of buoy that knocked my cowl off.

Ha you would tell the judge,, that tree ran out in front of you :lol:

Whatever Phil. No sense wasting anymore words here with you......... <_<

ok just messing around with you Im sure the rule would be fair to everyone

 

[SayMikey]

I would like to see.. If parts fall off not resulting in a crash with another boat its a DQ from the heat. It parts are falling off from a buoy hit it’s a DQ.
I know it sounds harsh but…….. I don’t want to have to drive my boat around a bunch of parts that just “happen to” fall off..

Grim

I disagree newer boats have a canard that wont survive a bouy hit head on. Give them the lap as usual and punish them if parts fall off on there own. Also if the c/d calls out parts in the water the running boats should make every attempt to miss them. DOES anyone remember when this was a GENTLEMANS CLASS? Racing is fierce to say the least but a ragged out boat over it is no fun. How much room is enough to get inside a called dead boat? No one goes around the outside even if its the faster route.

 

[Don Ferrette]

DOES anyone remember when this was a GENTLEMANS CLASS? Racing is fierce to say the least but a ragged out boat over it is no fun.

AMEN to THAT!!!!!

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

I always wondered if this would work.

Maybe use this process to decide whether a boat is legal to race.

If you have an interest in building a boat take the hull roster to your district scale chairman. Have him confirm the dimensions of the boat your want to build.

If you build or buy it have him confirm that you are within the dimensions before you even start rigging it up. At each of these points your scale chairman signs off on his confirmation. If he does not sign off you cannot proceed until you get the items fixed that need to be fixed. This is all before painting.

After it is all rigged up (engine installed, rudder, strut etc.) The boat is reviewed again and photographed. The paint scheme is also confirmed as to be the correct paint scheme for that boat to be legal. Then the boat is painted.

The colors and basic design of the scheme is reviewed for accuracy. At this point the guy has 3 signatures from the chairman that his boat is correct. The final sign-off is a vote among the districts participating scale drivers (meaning they entered and ran at least one race that season) and the boat is voted in. If there are any inaccuracies they are mentioned before the vote and reviewed. The sum of the membership decided if the boat should be allowed to run. Majority rules. If it is voted into the fleet another photograph is taken to verify the configuration of the hull wing placement etc and a final signature is issued along with a witness that the boat is legal and can run as it appears in the confirmation photo which should also coincide with the real photo of the boat if one exist.

I think this may help eliminate the problems. If no one protest at that point then there should never be a protest... at least from that district. If the boat does not get voted in then there is a big problem with the scale chairman. However, that community of scale boaters should work together to help the boater bring his boat up to spec rather than stand aside idle and criticize.

At the end of it all the driver has a certified card with 4 signature and one from his peers that his boat is ay okay. This way the rules serve more as a guideline of where you should be but it requires you to work directly with your local official to ensure you have a legal entry. This is all done with the scale enthusiast best interest at heart to prevent time consuming reconstruction and sometimes embarrasement. Then after that direction it needs to be accepted by the majority of your peers, but if you follow the chairmans guidance that last signature should just serve as a check and balance effort.

This leaves the fact open that your whole district may choose to run illegal boats but if that is the case there is no solution for that but at least you will all or most of you will be on the same page with the boats you will race most of the time.

Just a thought.

 

[Don Ferrette]

You're kidding right? :blink:

 

[SayMikey]

I always wondered if this would work.
Maybe use this process to decide whether a boat is legal to race.

If you have an interest in building a boat take the hull roster to your district scale chairman. Have him confirm the dimensions of the boat your want to build.

If you build or buy it have him confirm that you are within the dimensions before you even start rigging it up. At each of these points your scale chairman signs off on his confirmation. If he does not sign off you cannot proceed until you get the items fixed that need to be fixed. This is all before painting.

After it is all rigged up (engine installed, rudder, strut etc.) The boat is reviewed again and photographed. The paint scheme is also confirmed as to be the correct paint scheme for that boat to be legal. Then the boat is painted.

The colors and basic design of the scheme is reviewed for accuracy. At this point the guy has 3 signatures from the chairman that his boat is correct. The final sign-off is a vote among the districts participating scale drivers (meaning they entered and ran at least one race that season) and the boat is voted in. If there are any inaccuracies they are mentioned before the vote and reviewed. The sum of the membership decided if the boat should be allowed to run. Majority rules. If it is voted into the fleet another photograph is taken to verify the configuration of the hull wing placement etc and a final signature is issued along with a witness that the boat is legal and can run as it appears in the confirmation photo which should also coincide with the real photo of the boat if one exist.

I think this may help eliminate the problems. If no one protest at that point then there should never be a protest... at least from that district. If the boat does not get voted in then there is a big problem with the scale chairman. However, that community of scale boaters should work together to help the boater bring his boat up to spec rather than stand aside idle and criticize.

At the end of it all the driver has a certified card with 4 signature and one from his peers that his boat is ay okay. This way the rules serve more as a guideline of where you should be but it requires you to work directly with your local official to ensure you have a legal entry. This is all done with the scale enthusiast best interest at heart to prevent time consuming reconstruction and sometimes embarrasement. Then after that direction it needs to be accepted by the majority of your peers, but if you follow the chairmans guidance that last signature should just serve as a check and balance effort.

This leaves the fact open that your whole district may choose to run illegal boats but if that is the case there is no solution for that but at least you will all or most of you will be on the same page with the boats you will race most of the time.

Just a thought.

I think its a little extreme but any scale boater should always start with a conversation with the District Scale Chairman. Verification of MHR should always be a must before a scale card is issued. But if i go to a out of district race and have my boat registered in my home district i expect to race Mike

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

You're kidding right? :blink:

No I was serious. I guess it isn't a good idea. Like I said it was just a thought.

 

[P THOMAS]

You're kidding right? :blink:

No I was serious. I guess it isn't a good idea. Like I said it was just a thought.

hows it going Roger? What scale you building?

That would be a bit much but if everyone was in on that in a district it could work.

Cabin fever sets in in Califonia too I guess, but it cant be that cold not to run a boat

PHIL

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

You're kidding right? :blink:

No I was serious. I guess it isn't a good idea. Like I said it was just a thought.

hows it going Roger? What scale you building?

That would be a bit much but if everyone was in on that in a district it could work.

Cabin fever sets in in Califonia too I guess, but it cant be that cold not to run a boat

PHIL

Hey Phil,

Looks like I will be painting up the Sunny Jim pickle fork.

BTW - Get ready to ship another boat this way. It is about time for our annual Grand Prix Classic and we will be in need of another raffle prize.

 

[Don Ferrette]

You're kidding right? :blink:

No I was serious. I guess it isn't a good idea. Like I said it was just a thought.

Hey I know the intent was all good but I think this would scare off most potential new scale guys. That's a lot of hoops to put someone through ..... :huh:

 

[Bill Gibson]

Just my thoughts, for what its worth.....i just finished my second scale boat not too long ago...my first attempt being pretty much an absolute failure..I put together a PT 82u55 hull and painted it up as the 82 Executone...even as simple and straight forward as this boat was to assemble and paint compared to so many other beautiful and complex scale boats that ive seen race, I still could not believe how much time and effort i put into this fairly simple hull, knowing full and well that this thing can possibly be rekitted in 2 laps...what im gettin at is I think it takes special(crazy?)kind of people to be willing to be involved in this class and though it is important to keep the intent of this class a priority, dont make it so hard for a new person to get into this class, that he or she just says to heck with this nonsense, ill just do something simpler and easier....because so far in my limited experiance with scale boats, its not about being simple or easy! I DO love scale boats though, just the same! Bill

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

You're kidding right? :blink:

No I was serious. I guess it isn't a good idea. Like I said it was just a thought.

Hey I know the intent was all good but I think this would scare off most potential new scale guys. That's a lot of hoops to put someone through ..... :huh:

I didn't think of it as making the person jump through hoops rather than a way for people to have 100% no doubt that their boat is correct and absolutely no one to say other wise after the fact. It would be done for the boaters protection of the right to race his boat without the worry of Nay Sayers.

Or just vote the boat in by the scale racers in the district without the check points.

 

[brian-lepinski]

Roger you are not far off. The intent of scale class is to Duplicate the real boats as close as possible. If this means not letting someone rac because ther boat is not scale so be it. I race scale for the love of the real boats. And I am proud to be a part of what Roger J. Newton began here in the northwest. Here is our rules to describe A SCALE HYDROPLANE

Section III: Boat Specifications, Eligibility, Ownership,

Registration, Inspection, and Qualification

A. Hull, Engine and Equipment Requirements

1. All boats shall be models of past or present American Power Boat

Association Unlimited Hydroplanes that are listed in the R/C Unlimiteds

Master Hull Roster.

2. a. Boats shall be built to scale of 1 1/2 inches (model) equals 1 foot

(actual unlimited).

b. Boats shall measure within the following tolerance of true scale size,

excluding appendages:

1. length overall ...................................... +/- 1 inch

2. beam ................................................... +/- 10 %

3. maximum depth .................................. +/- 10 %

4. afterplane length (three point design).. +/- 10 %

5. tunnel width ........................................ +/- 10 %

6. picklefork depth .................................. +/- 10 %

7. Un-dimensioned boats must have dimensions approved by the

R/C Unlimiteds Contest Board.

3. Boats shall be painted, configured and detailed like the actual unlimited

with cockpit detail. The acquisition of proof validating a paint scheme,

cowling configuration, engine configuration or other scale details shall be

the responsibility of the boat’s owner. Photographs of the boat in the water at

an unlimited hydroplane event in racing configuration shall constitute proof.

4. Boats shall enter competition complete with cowling(s) and driver(s). Boats

with canopy must have clear canopy with cockpit and driver. It is

recommended that scale drivers have arms, avoiding the use of model

airplane “busts.”

5. The boat engine(s) shall be concealed by an engine cowl or fake engine

(modeling an Allison, Rolls, etc.) or both.

6. Rear non-trips and sponson sides must be scaled after the actual unlimited.

7. Reversing or “mirror imaging” sponson sides and general sponson

design is allowable on model if actual unlimited has non-symmetrical

sponsons (current Ron Jones sponsons).

a. Boats modeled after unlimiteds using Jones non-symmetrical

sponsons (48” right and 38” left widths) must also have nonsymmetrical

sponsons (approx. 1 1/4” difference). Sponsons may be

widened or narrowed up to 10% (as part of the total width), however,

both must be of equal percentage in the same direction. If the right

sponson, for example, is widened 5%, the left sponson must also be

widened 5%.

b. Obvious steps or recovery planes on sponsons are only allowable

if they are “built in” or disguised into the sponson design. Due to the

difficulty in determining a specific rule on this, an inspection by all

the R/CU Board members will determine if the steps are of

reasonable size and are acceptable. Members considering adding

such steps should first submit a drawing of their sponsons to the

Board for approval.

8. A boat bottom shall have the same general appearance and number of

propellers of that of the unlimited which the hull represents.

Exceptions include:

a. Sponson riding surfaces, which may be modified.

b. Propeller shafts, which may be articulated.

c. Rudders and skid fins, which may be configured and located as

desired.

d. Motor belly pan: for motor and flywheel only. If applicable,

dimensions will not exceed 3 1/2” width, 7” in length and 3/4” in

depth. Under no circumstances will said belly pan be allowed to

exceed the depth of any riding surface or recovery surface.

If the real boat had a full length belly pan, the model must conform.

9. Outdrive units are specifically prohibited. The forward most part of the

stock propeller hub shall not lie behind the transom plane, unless scaled

from dimensions of the real boat.

10. The engine size shall be a maximum of .67 cu. in. total on-board

displacement.

11. All boats starting their engines in the designated pit area shall be equipped

with a “prop guard” intended to prevent accidental contact with the prop

from all directions.

12. No boat may emit a noise level in excess of 90 decibels while at full throttle

50 feet from the measuring device.

13. Exposed metal fuel cans shall not be used or stored in the pit area.

14. Boat safety inspections will be held to ensure the following:

a. Rudder linkage: Must remain stiff- no play or slop in rudder or

radio hookups.

b. Rudders: Any boat sporting a physically unsafe rudder will be

ordered to change it. Examples of an unsafe rudder include, but are

not limited to: Bent, cracks in solder joints, insecure bracket, etc.

c. Skid fins: Skid fin and bracket should be securely mounted.

d. Antennas: All whip antennas must be securely mounted.

e. Radio on/off switches: On/off switches that extend out of the

transom must push in to turn radio on.

f. General radio problems: Erratic and continual radio trouble will

be cause for disqualification until such problem has been corrected

to the satisfaction of board members present.

g. There shall be no smoking or open flame in the pit area.

3

Section III continued.

B. Eligibility

1. A final decision as to the eligibility of any racing craft to participate in R/C

Unlimiteds competition shall be the responsibility of the R/C Unlimiteds

Contest Board.

As you can see we do give a little. But the intent is to run SCALE HYDROS. anything else is a sport 60 in my books. Just my 2 cents worth

 

[Grimracer]

BINGO!

Grim

 

[Greg Hahn]

BINGO!
Grim

I second that BINGO!

gh