Fuel Mixture

[dave roach]

Good post Tim.

Now lets see if some can get info on the oil they use.

Dave Roach

 

[Tim_Duggan]

Thanks Dave,

I don't mean to sound like the poster boy for Klotz by the way, it's just that was all that I could find thanks to google. I do currently use Klotz oil and have done for many years, but that does not mean I'm not receptive to other info at all.

When I worked in a LHS I did see a lot of car engines with piston crown edge damage from lean runs with blue colored fuel in the tank, and that did scare me off Morgans Oil I must admit, but in hindsight I didn't take into consideration how it was being used and by who...... Thankfully over the years I have learned to be more conservative with my mixture valve settings and not used the needle as a "go faster" option.

 

[Jim Allen]

Quote - The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a liquid's flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. End quote.

These figures are for the oil on it's own and were sourced from the Klotz Tech sheets on their website. It does not take into account that it is mixed with nitro + methanol and in some cases Propylene Oxide.

Flash point of Benol (Klotz castor oil) 555 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 15.7

Flash point of KL200 (Klotz Techniplate synthetic oil) 460 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 23.3

Flash point of KL198 (Klotz heli blend) 420 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 10.9

Flash point of KL100 (Klotz Super Techniplate synth/castor blend) 460degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 22.4

I must admit I was very surprised by the viscosity of castor @ 100 degrees C. Better than I thought it would be, knowing how thick it is when pouring it at ambient.

Any chance that anyone is able to obtain these figures for the other oils used by boat racers?

I received the following information from Bert Striegler, manager of Technical services for Conoco Inc., who is a lubrication engineer with 30 years experience. "There seems to be no satisfactory way to measure the film strength of lubricants like synthetics & castor oil. Routine test like the Falex test, Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test are designed to measure chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These EP agents have no function in an engine oil.

To understand what happens in a model engine, any fluid that acts as a lubricant must first be polar enough to wet the moving surfaces. It must have a high resistance to surface boiling & vaporization at the temperatures encountered. The fluid should have oiliness, which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets all these simple requirements in an engine, with only one severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will not work! Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride ricinoleic acid, which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position & a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses 1 molecule of water & becomes a drying oil. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidy as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms heavier oils rich in esters. These esters don't even begin to decompose until the temperature reaches about 650 deg F. Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at elevated temperatures- in other words, as the temperature goes up, the oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the by-product of this process is what we refer to as varnish. You can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor with a polyalkylene glycol synthetic. The mix will have better properties than either product alone.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar, or has great affinity for metal surfaces. It has a flash point of only 445 deg F but its fire point is 840 deg F! This is very unusual, if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 deg F & have a fire point of only 550 deg F or slightly higher. Most common synthetics that are now used burn in the combustion chamber if run to lean. Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more & more complex polymers as the temperature goes up.

Most synthetics boil on the cylinder at temperatures slightly above their flash point. Synthetics also have another interesting feature- they like to return to the materials from which they were made. These are things such as ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, & other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. This phenomena is called unzippering for obvious reasons.

So, there is a choice. If you run to lean & the engine gets to hot, the synthetic will burn or simply vaporize. On the other hand, the castor oil will decompose into a soft varnish & a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricating qualities".

Jim Allen

 

[Rick Doane]

Quote - The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a liquid's flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. End quote.

These figures are for the oil on it's own and were sourced from the Klotz Tech sheets on their website. It does not take into account that it is mixed with nitro + methanol and in some cases Propylene Oxide.

Flash point of Benol (Klotz castor oil) 555 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 15.7

Flash point of KL200 (Klotz Techniplate synthetic oil) 460 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 23.3

Flash point of KL198 (Klotz heli blend) 420 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 10.9

Flash point of KL100 (Klotz Super Techniplate synth/castor blend) 460degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 22.4

I must admit I was very surprised by the viscosity of castor @ 100 degrees C. Better than I thought it would be, knowing how thick it is when pouring it at ambient.

Any chance that anyone is able to obtain these figures for the other oils used by boat racers?

I received the following information from Bert Striegler, manager of Technical services for Conoco Inc., who is a lubrication engineer with 30 years experience. "There seems to be no satisfactory way to measure the film strength of lubricants like synthetics & castor oil. Routine test like the Falex test, Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test are designed to measure chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These EP agents have no function in an engine oil.

To understand what happens in a model engine, any fluid that acts as a lubricant must first be polar enough to wet the moving surfaces. It must have a high resistance to surface boiling & vaporization at the temperatures encountered. The fluid should have oiliness, which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets all these simple requirements in an engine, with only one severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will not work! Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride ricinoleic acid, which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position & a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses 1 molecule of water & becomes a drying oil. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidy as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms heavier oils rich in esters. These esters don't even begin to decompose until the temperature reaches about 650 deg F. Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at elevated temperatures- in other words, as the temperature goes up, the oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the by-product of this process is what we refer to as varnish. You can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor with a polyalkylene glycol synthetic. The mix will have better properties than either product alone.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar, or has great affinity for metal surfaces. It has a flash point of only 445 deg F but its fire point is 840 deg F! This is very unusual, if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 deg F & have a fire point of only 550 deg F or slightly higher. Most common synthetics that are now used burn in the combustion chamber if run to lean. Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more & more complex polymers as the temperature goes up.

Most synthetics boil on the cylinder at temperatures slightly above their flash point. Synthetics also have another interesting feature- they like to return to the materials from which they were made. These are things such as ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, & other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. This phenomena is called unzippering for obvious reasons.

So, there is a choice. If you run to lean & the engine gets to hot, the synthetic will burn or simply vaporize. On the other hand, the castor oil will decompose into a soft varnish & a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricating qualities".

Jim Allen

Tim/Jim:

Excellent presentations. Thanks guys. After running all synthetic for 30 years, I have just recently gone to 5% castor in the mix to try. The thing is now, everything stinks worse when I get home.

Rick

 

[Charles Perdue]

Quote - The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a liquid's flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. End quote.

These figures are for the oil on it's own and were sourced from the Klotz Tech sheets on their website. It does not take into account that it is mixed with nitro + methanol and in some cases Propylene Oxide.

Flash point of Benol (Klotz castor oil) 555 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 15.7

Flash point of KL200 (Klotz Techniplate synthetic oil) 460 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 23.3

Flash point of KL198 (Klotz heli blend) 420 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 10.9

Flash point of KL100 (Klotz Super Techniplate synth/castor blend) 460degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 22.4

I must admit I was very surprised by the viscosity of castor @ 100 degrees C. Better than I thought it would be, knowing how thick it is when pouring it at ambient.

Any chance that anyone is able to obtain these figures for the other oils used by boat racers?

I received the following information from Bert Striegler, manager of Technical services for Conoco Inc., who is a lubrication engineer with 30 years experience. "There seems to be no satisfactory way to measure the film strength of lubricants like synthetics & castor oil. Routine test like the Falex test, Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test are designed to measure chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These EP agents have no function in an engine oil.

To understand what happens in a model engine, any fluid that acts as a lubricant must first be polar enough to wet the moving surfaces. It must have a high resistance to surface boiling & vaporization at the temperatures encountered. The fluid should have oiliness, which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets all these simple requirements in an engine, with only one severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will not work! Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride ricinoleic acid, which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position & a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses 1 molecule of water & becomes a drying oil. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidy as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms heavier oils rich in esters. These esters don't even begin to decompose until the temperature reaches about 650 deg F. Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at elevated temperatures- in other words, as the temperature goes up, the oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the by-product of this process is what we refer to as varnish. You can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor with a polyalkylene glycol synthetic. The mix will have better properties than either product alone.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar, or has great affinity for metal surfaces. It has a flash point of only 445 deg F but its fire point is 840 deg F! This is very unusual, if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 deg F & have a fire point of only 550 deg F or slightly higher. Most common synthetics that are now used burn in the combustion chamber if run to lean. Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more & more complex polymers as the temperature goes up.

Most synthetics boil on the cylinder at temperatures slightly above their flash point. Synthetics also have another interesting feature- they like to return to the materials from which they were made. These are things such as ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, & other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. This phenomena is called unzippering for obvious reasons.

So, there is a choice. If you run to lean & the engine gets to hot, the synthetic will burn or simply vaporize. On the other hand, the castor oil will decompose into a soft varnish & a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricating qualities".

Jim Allen

One lubrication engineer made the comment that lubricating a 2 cycle engine was like trying to lubricate a blow torch with moving parts, only much more difficult.

 

[dwilfong]

Quote - The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a liquid's flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. End quote.

These figures are for the oil on it's own and were sourced from the Klotz Tech sheets on their website. It does not take into account that it is mixed with nitro + methanol and in some cases Propylene Oxide.

Flash point of Benol (Klotz castor oil) 555 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 15.7

Flash point of KL200 (Klotz Techniplate synthetic oil) 460 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 23.3

Flash point of KL198 (Klotz heli blend) 420 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 10.9

Flash point of KL100 (Klotz Super Techniplate synth/castor blend) 460degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 22.4

I must admit I was very surprised by the viscosity of castor @ 100 degrees C. Better than I thought it would be, knowing how thick it is when pouring it at ambient.

Any chance that anyone is able to obtain these figures for the other oils used by boat racers?

I received the following information from Bert Striegler, manager of Technical services for Conoco Inc., who is a lubrication engineer with 30 years experience. "There seems to be no satisfactory way to measure the film strength of lubricants like synthetics & castor oil. Routine test like the Falex test, Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test are designed to measure chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These EP agents have no function in an engine oil.

To understand what happens in a model engine, any fluid that acts as a lubricant must first be polar enough to wet the moving surfaces. It must have a high resistance to surface boiling & vaporization at the temperatures encountered. The fluid should have oiliness, which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets all these simple requirements in an engine, with only one severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will not work! Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride ricinoleic acid, which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position & a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses 1 molecule of water & becomes a drying oil. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidy as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms heavier oils rich in esters. These esters don't even begin to decompose until the temperature reaches about 650 deg F. Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at elevated temperatures- in other words, as the temperature goes up, the oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the by-product of this process is what we refer to as varnish. You can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor with a polyalkylene glycol synthetic. The mix will have better properties than either product alone.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar, or has great affinity for metal surfaces. It has a flash point of only 445 deg F but its fire point is 840 deg F! This is very unusual, if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 deg F & have a fire point of only 550 deg F or slightly higher. Most common synthetics that are now used burn in the combustion chamber if run to lean. Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more & more complex polymers as the temperature goes up.

Most synthetics boil on the cylinder at temperatures slightly above their flash point. Synthetics also have another interesting feature- they like to return to the materials from which they were made. These are things such as ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, & other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. This phenomena is called unzippering for obvious reasons.

So, there is a choice. If you run to lean & the engine gets to hot, the synthetic will burn or simply vaporize. On the other hand, the castor oil will decompose into a soft varnish & a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricating qualities".

Jim Allen

Jim

I have heard of using UCON LB625 synthetic oil but it dose not seam to be available any more.

What would be a good alternative.

David

 

[Marty Davis]

Quote - The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a liquid's flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. End quote.

These figures are for the oil on it's own and were sourced from the Klotz Tech sheets on their website. It does not take into account that it is mixed with nitro + methanol and in some cases Propylene Oxide.

Flash point of Benol (Klotz castor oil) 555 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 15.7

Flash point of KL200 (Klotz Techniplate synthetic oil) 460 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 23.3

Flash point of KL198 (Klotz heli blend) 420 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 10.9

Flash point of KL100 (Klotz Super Techniplate synth/castor blend) 460degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 22.4

I must admit I was very surprised by the viscosity of castor @ 100 degrees C. Better than I thought it would be, knowing how thick it is when pouring it at ambient.

Any chance that anyone is able to obtain these figures for the other oils used by boat racers?

I received the following information from Bert Striegler, manager of Technical services for Conoco Inc., who is a lubrication engineer with 30 years experience. "There seems to be no satisfactory way to measure the film strength of lubricants like synthetics & castor oil. Routine test like the Falex test, Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test are designed to measure chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These EP agents have no function in an engine oil.

To understand what happens in a model engine, any fluid that acts as a lubricant must first be polar enough to wet the moving surfaces. It must have a high resistance to surface boiling & vaporization at the temperatures encountered. The fluid should have oiliness, which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets all these simple requirements in an engine, with only one severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will not work! Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride ricinoleic acid, which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position & a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses 1 molecule of water & becomes a drying oil. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidy as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms heavier oils rich in esters. These esters don't even begin to decompose until the temperature reaches about 650 deg F. Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at elevated temperatures- in other words, as the temperature goes up, the oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the by-product of this process is what we refer to as varnish. You can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor with a polyalkylene glycol synthetic. The mix will have better properties than either product alone.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar, or has great affinity for metal surfaces. It has a flash point of only 445 deg F but its fire point is 840 deg F! This is very unusual, if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 deg F & have a fire point of only 550 deg F or slightly higher. Most common synthetics that are now used burn in the combustion chamber if run to lean. Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more & more complex polymers as the temperature goes up.

Most synthetics boil on the cylinder at temperatures slightly above their flash point. Synthetics also have another interesting feature- they like to return to the materials from which they were made. These are things such as ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, & other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. This phenomena is called unzippering for obvious reasons.

So, there is a choice. If you run to lean & the engine gets to hot, the synthetic will burn or simply vaporize. On the other hand, the castor oil will decompose into a soft varnish & a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricating qualities".

Jim Allen

Jim

I have heard of using UCON LB625 synthetic oil but it dose not seam to be available any more.

What would be a good alternative.

David:

I can get you some LB625 if you wish.

David

 

[Marty Davis]

Quote - The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a liquid's flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. End quote.

These figures are for the oil on it's own and were sourced from the Klotz Tech sheets on their website. It does not take into account that it is mixed with nitro + methanol and in some cases Propylene Oxide.

Flash point of Benol (Klotz castor oil) 555 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 15.7

Flash point of KL200 (Klotz Techniplate synthetic oil) 460 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 23.3

Flash point of KL198 (Klotz heli blend) 420 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 10.9

Flash point of KL100 (Klotz Super Techniplate synth/castor blend) 460degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 22.4

I must admit I was very surprised by the viscosity of castor @ 100 degrees C. Better than I thought it would be, knowing how thick it is when pouring it at ambient.

Any chance that anyone is able to obtain these figures for the other oils used by boat racers?

I received the following information from Bert Striegler, manager of Technical services for Conoco Inc., who is a lubrication engineer with 30 years experience. "There seems to be no satisfactory way to measure the film strength of lubricants like synthetics & castor oil. Routine test like the Falex test, Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test are designed to measure chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These EP agents have no function in an engine oil.

To understand what happens in a model engine, any fluid that acts as a lubricant must first be polar enough to wet the moving surfaces. It must have a high resistance to surface boiling & vaporization at the temperatures encountered. The fluid should have oiliness, which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets all these simple requirements in an engine, with only one severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will not work! Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride ricinoleic acid, which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position & a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses 1 molecule of water & becomes a drying oil. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidy as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms heavier oils rich in esters. These esters don't even begin to decompose until the temperature reaches about 650 deg F. Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at elevated temperatures- in other words, as the temperature goes up, the oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the by-product of this process is what we refer to as varnish. You can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor with a polyalkylene glycol synthetic. The mix will have better properties than either product alone.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar, or has great affinity for metal surfaces. It has a flash point of only 445 deg F but its fire point is 840 deg F! This is very unusual, if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 deg F & have a fire point of only 550 deg F or slightly higher. Most common synthetics that are now used burn in the combustion chamber if run to lean. Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more & more complex polymers as the temperature goes up.

Most synthetics boil on the cylinder at temperatures slightly above their flash point. Synthetics also have another interesting feature- they like to return to the materials from which they were made. These are things such as ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, & other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. This phenomena is called unzippering for obvious reasons.

So, there is a choice. If you run to lean & the engine gets to hot, the synthetic will burn or simply vaporize. On the other hand, the castor oil will decompose into a soft varnish & a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricating qualities".

Jim Allen

Jim:

That is an awesome presentation of factual data that we can really benefit from.

I would like to talk about this a little from a non-technical basis. Everyone is different in the way that they treat their engines and run their engines. I use a mixture control and typically run my engines on the rich side of a two stroke. I find that it comes out of the corners harder and is much easier on bearings, liner/piston fit, etc. I can assume from your facts that this is the reason that the synthetic works so well for me. It seems that ALL FUEL should have some castor in it to protect from the occasional lean run condition. Just makes sense to use a little castor if it acts this way in high temp usage.

2 things now.....

What kind of a percentage of Castor do people believe it will take to protect?

When I ran Castor, we used Baker's Castor because it was said to be purer than most that you can buy. Anyone have a good source for Castor in Gallons?

Very interesting topic and GREAT contribution. I am learning a lot....

A bunch of really smart people on IW.

I have always wished that I lived closer to Jim Allen. I would love to see some of his stuff and talk technical.

 

[Martin Hamilton]

We have always used 20% castor (no nitro) in tethered hydros and will continue to for good reasons. Regards Martin.

 

[TUNLBOTR]

Marty,

Greg Cardone at Farmers in Tampa has a good castor source.

Bill graves over at Graves RC hobbies in Orlando sells sig castor in quarts, $10.99 qt. 12 in stock. Gravesrc.com

Randy

 

[Tim_Duggan]

Jim,

I've seen that comment from Bert S before on the "motor boys" site. Stan Pilgrim who is also mentioned on that site taught me a lot over the years - I was fortunate enough to have spent hours discussing such matters with him in person. He's another advocate of the use of castor.

Marty,

I've used Klotz Benol for castor for many years and it seems to be a lot cleaner (less soot / varnish) than some other castor oils on the market. I like a ratio of 3:1 for Synthetic to castor. I ran Kalistratov's and Thunder tiger O/B's for years and they liked castor, and the mix I used just "stuck" so to speak.

Tim

 

[dwilfong]

Quote - The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a liquid's flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. End quote.

These figures are for the oil on it's own and were sourced from the Klotz Tech sheets on their website. It does not take into account that it is mixed with nitro + methanol and in some cases Propylene Oxide.

Flash point of Benol (Klotz castor oil) 555 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 15.7

Flash point of KL200 (Klotz Techniplate synthetic oil) 460 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 23.3

Flash point of KL198 (Klotz heli blend) 420 degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 10.9

Flash point of KL100 (Klotz Super Techniplate synth/castor blend) 460degrees F. Viscosity @ 100degrees C is 22.4

I must admit I was very surprised by the viscosity of castor @ 100 degrees C. Better than I thought it would be, knowing how thick it is when pouring it at ambient.

Any chance that anyone is able to obtain these figures for the other oils used by boat racers?

I received the following information from Bert Striegler, manager of Technical services for Conoco Inc., who is a lubrication engineer with 30 years experience. "There seems to be no satisfactory way to measure the film strength of lubricants like synthetics & castor oil. Routine test like the Falex test, Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test are designed to measure chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These EP agents have no function in an engine oil.

To understand what happens in a model engine, any fluid that acts as a lubricant must first be polar enough to wet the moving surfaces. It must have a high resistance to surface boiling & vaporization at the temperatures encountered. The fluid should have oiliness, which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets all these simple requirements in an engine, with only one severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will not work! Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride ricinoleic acid, which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position & a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses 1 molecule of water & becomes a drying oil. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidy as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms heavier oils rich in esters. These esters don't even begin to decompose until the temperature reaches about 650 deg F. Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at elevated temperatures- in other words, as the temperature goes up, the oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the by-product of this process is what we refer to as varnish. You can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor with a polyalkylene glycol synthetic. The mix will have better properties than either product alone.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar, or has great affinity for metal surfaces. It has a flash point of only 445 deg F but its fire point is 840 deg F! This is very unusual, if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 deg F & have a fire point of only 550 deg F or slightly higher. Most common synthetics that are now used burn in the combustion chamber if run to lean. Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more & more complex polymers as the temperature goes up.

Most synthetics boil on the cylinder at temperatures slightly above their flash point. Synthetics also have another interesting feature- they like to return to the materials from which they were made. These are things such as ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, & other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. This phenomena is called unzippering for obvious reasons.

So, there is a choice. If you run to lean & the engine gets to hot, the synthetic will burn or simply vaporize. On the other hand, the castor oil will decompose into a soft varnish & a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricating qualities".

Jim Allen

Jim

I have heard of using UCON LB625 synthetic oil but it dose not seam to be available any more.

What would be a good alternative.

David:

I can get you some LB625 if you wish.

David

Marty I will talk with you at the race nex weekend.

David

PS I work right down the street from Graves if you need some SIG castor let me know I can bring it to the race.

 

[Archie Stanton]

Jim

I am very interested in the ethylene oxide you refer to. From what I have found out it is a gas above 51F.

That is why I was asking how do you mix it with nitro.

Not trying to be a smart a$ just want to learn all I can for future reference.

Also where do you get it.

David

Ethylene oxide is an extremely flammable gas (above 10 degrees C or 50 deg F) or liquid (below 10 deg C or 50 deg F) that will readily ignite at room temperature. In a liquid state it can accumulate static charge by splashing or agitation. Solutions containing greater than 4 %wt ethylene oxide are extremely flammable. The fumes are slightly heavier than air & can travel considerable distances to a source of ignition. Large temperature variations above & below 10 deg C will cause spontaneous polymerization, which can cause containers to rupture violently. As is the case with all chemicals classified as mono propellents (chemicals that do not require outside oxygen to burn) such as nitro methane, propelyene oxide, ethylene oxide, etc.; extreme care & knowledge must be employed at all times!! The chemical is absolutely safe & stable after it has been mixed in fuels!

The ethylene oxide that is still in my possesion in Henry Nelson's chemical freezer was purchased from Eastman Kodak. It was sent to me in an 8 ozs glass sealed bottle that was contained in a cork insulated metal can. The sealed metal can was contained in several more layers of cork & carboard boxes with the end container being very large in size. It was sent via UPS & each container cost approximately $80.00. Two 8 ozs glass sealed bottles were required to make 1/2 gallon of fuel because each bottle contained only 4 ozs of ethylene oxide liquid. Refrigeration is required immediately after opening the metal can!

After September 11, ethylene oxide could only be purchased with a permit & a sealed refrigerated container on site was required. Do not confuse this chemical with the ethylene oxide used in hospitals to sterilize medical equipment. The stuff in hospitals has other chemicals added to make it sutiable for their use.

Jim Allen

I think my mother-in-law might get an anonymous gift. 5 gallons of Ethylene Oxide and cool new (but faulty) remote control vacuum might just be the ticket

 

[Jim Allen]

The following oils have been tested during dyno pulls of 2.5 to 3 minutes at wide open throttle & engine RPM from 26,000 to 32,000. Since needle settings are adjusted during pulls, sometimes the engines tested are running very lean. Engines that are overcompressed will take the plug quickly when leaned out & engines that are undercompressed will run for some time without plug damage. All preformed well, but keep in mind that no matter the amount of oil in the fuel (6 to 15%), a ratio of 1/3 castor to 2/3 synthetic was used in all instances. The 1/3 to 2/3 ratio was established by Frank Garzone in his D speed plane when he was using 70% nitro, 20% oil, 10% proplylene, as the fuel.

The following are lubricants that have been tested.

Steen "C", X2C, Klotz Super Techniplate KL-100, Lubricin, MA-2270, LB625, Bakers AAA castor, Blendzall Racing Lube 2- Cycle Castor, Klotz BeNOL Racing Castor Oil BC-175

Jim Allen

 

[Marty Davis]

The following oils have been tested during dyno pulls of 2.5 to 3 minutes at wide open throttle & engine RPM from 26,000 to 32,000. Since needle settings are adjusted during pulls, sometimes the engines tested are running very lean. Engines that are overcompressed will take the plug quickly when leaned out & engines that are undercompressed will run for some time without plug damage. All preformed well, but keep in mind that no matter the amount of oil in the fuel (6 to 15%), a ratio of 1/3 castor to 2/3 synthetic was used in all instances. The 1/3 to 2/3 ratio was established by Frank Garzone in his D speed plane when he was using 70% nitro, 20% oil, 10% proplylene, as the fuel.

The following are lubricants that have been tested.

Steen "C", X2C, Klotz Super Techniplate KL-100, Lubricin, MA-2270, LB625, Bakers AAA castor, Blendzall Racing Lube 2- Cycle Castor, Klotz BeNOL Racing Castor Oil BC-175

Jim Allen

Jim:

Do you have a favorite combination? Since you have tested on the dyno, you will have tangible results.

 

[Jim Allen]

Marty,

I have finally agreed on the Klotz Super Techniplate & the Blendzall Racing Castor mixed in a 2/3 to 1/3 ratio. Both are readily availabe; both can be stored for long periods of time; the two together allow lean runs without piston scuffing or bearing problems & there is very little if any varnish left in the engine after running. The good performance is probably mainly due to the large amount of castor oil present.

The 2/3 to 1/3 ratio when used in air temperatures below 65 deg F will require 2 to 3% of nitro benzene to prevent the castor oil from seperating in high nitro fuels (65 to 82% nitro).

The only variation from the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio is the starting fluid used. It containes 5% nitro; 50% menthanol; 20% castor oil & 25% proplylene oxide. This stuff will start even a wet engine easily!

Jim

 

[Marty Davis]

Marty,

I have finally agreed on the Klotz Super Techniplate & the Blendzall Racing Castor mixed in a 2/3 to 1/3 ratio. Both are readily availabe; both can be stored for long periods of time; the two together allow lean runs without piston scuffing or bearing problems & there is very little if any varnish left in the engine after running. The good performance is probably mainly due to the large amount of castor oil present.

The 2/3 to 1/3 ratio when used in air temperatures below 65 deg F will require 2 to 3% of nitro benzene to prevent the castor oil from seperating in high nitro fuels (65 to 82% nitro).

The only variation from the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio is the starting fluid used. It containes 5% nitro; 50% menthanol; 20% castor oil & 25% proplylene oxide. This stuff will start even a wet engine easily!

Jim

Jim:

Thanks for the information.

What percentage total oil content do you use for the various engines sizes?

 

[Jim Allen]

Marty,

I have finally agreed on the Klotz Super Techniplate & the Blendzall Racing Castor mixed in a 2/3 to 1/3 ratio. Both are readily availabe; both can be stored for long periods of time; the two together allow lean runs without piston scuffing or bearing problems & there is very little if any varnish left in the engine after running. The good performance is probably mainly due to the large amount of castor oil present.

The 2/3 to 1/3 ratio when used in air temperatures below 65 deg F will require 2 to 3% of nitro benzene to prevent the castor oil from seperating in high nitro fuels (65 to 82% nitro).

The only variation from the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio is the starting fluid used. It containes 5% nitro; 50% menthanol; 20% castor oil & 25% proplylene oxide. This stuff will start even a wet engine easily!

Jim

Jim:

Thanks for the information.

What percentage total oil content do you use for the various engines sizes?

I tested oil content amounts of 6 to 8% at the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio in .21 to 1.00 cuin motors at RPM ranges of 26,000 to 32,000. Production motors, below .45 cuin, with bushed aluminum rods functioned without failures, even at 30,000 RPM. All of these motors had hard chromed liners & different induction systems. Once the engine size reached .65 cuin, no type of aluminum bushed rod would survive. A short burst at 30,000 rpm resulted in immediate rod failure when using the 6 or 8% oil content.

The heat & forces generated in the bottom end are proportional to the RPM, the crank pin diameter & length, the pressure from ignition, and the coefficient of friction. Most production motors of size use a zimmerman disk; rotary valve; standard drum or inverted drum for induction. These induction systems will cool & lubricate the bottom end with the fresh gases comming in, but they are not enough to prevent rod failure at high RPM when using small oil amounts.

In motors of size (.65, .67, .70, .80, .90, .1.00 cuin) that I built, only a steel roller rod with a very good cage would survive when using 8% oil or less at high RPMs (32,000+). The use of a bell valve does not help the lubrication of the bottom end!

Jim Allen

 

[Marty Davis]

Marty,

I have finally agreed on the Klotz Super Techniplate & the Blendzall Racing Castor mixed in a 2/3 to 1/3 ratio. Both are readily availabe; both can be stored for long periods of time; the two together allow lean runs without piston scuffing or bearing problems & there is very little if any varnish left in the engine after running. The good performance is probably mainly due to the large amount of castor oil present.

The 2/3 to 1/3 ratio when used in air temperatures below 65 deg F will require 2 to 3% of nitro benzene to prevent the castor oil from seperating in high nitro fuels (65 to 82% nitro).

The only variation from the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio is the starting fluid used. It containes 5% nitro; 50% menthanol; 20% castor oil & 25% proplylene oxide. This stuff will start even a wet engine easily!

Jim

Jim:

Thanks for the information.

What percentage total oil content do you use for the various engines sizes?

I tested oil content amounts of 6 to 8% at the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio in .21 to 1.00 cuin motors at RPM ranges of 26,000 to 32,000. Production motors, below .45 cuin, with bushed aluminum rods functioned without failures, even at 30,000 RPM. All of these motors had hard chromed liners & different induction systems. Once the engine size reached .65 cuin, no type of aluminum bushed rod would survive. A short burst at 30,000 rpm resulted in immediate rod failure when using the 6 or 8% oil content.

The heat & forces generated in the bottom end are proportional to the RPM, the crank pin diameter & length, the pressure from ignition, and the coefficient of friction. Most production motors of size use a zimmerman disk; rotary valve; standard drum or inverted drum for induction. These induction systems will cool & lubricate the bottom end with the fresh gases comming in, but they are not enough to prevent rod failure at high RPM when using small oil amounts.

In motors of size (.65, .67, .70, .80, .90, .1.00 cuin) that I built, only a steel roller rod with a very good cage would survive when using 8% oil or less at high RPMs (32,000+). The use of a bell valve does not help the lubrication of the bottom end!

Jim Allen

Jim:

We found exactly the same thing that the larger the engine, the more oil content was required.

I settled on 12% total oil content with .21's and upped it a little for each size increase till I was at 14% with the .67's.

Maybe with some castor, I can reduce the total in my .21's to 10% or so.

I would suspect that the seal will be better having some Castor in the engine as a side benefit.

 

[Terry Keeley]

I tested oil content amounts of 6 to 8% at the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio in .21 to 1.00 cuin motors at RPM ranges of 26,000 to 32,000. Production motors, below .45 cuin, with bushed aluminum rods functioned without failures, even at 30,000 RPM. All of these motors had hard chromed liners & different induction systems. Once the engine size reached .65 cuin, no type of aluminum bushed rod would survive. A short burst at 30,000 rpm resulted in immediate rod failure when using the 6 or 8% oil content.

The heat & forces generated in the bottom end are proportional to the RPM, the crank pin diameter & length, the pressure from ignition, and the coefficient of friction. Most production motors of size use a zimmerman disk; rotary valve; standard drum or inverted drum for induction. These induction systems will cool & lubricate the bottom end with the fresh gases comming in, but they are not enough to prevent rod failure at high RPM when using small oil amounts.

In motors of size (.65, .67, .70, .80, .90, .1.00 cuin) that I built, only a steel roller rod with a very good cage would survive when using 8% oil or less at high RPMs (32,000+). The use of a bell valve does not help the lubrication of the bottom end!

Jim Allen

Hey Jim:

Did you have any main bearing problems? Or was the rod bottom end always the limiting factor?

Were bearings inspected in any way?

Thanks for the great info!