Food for thought!!

[Geraghty]

Rod thanks for your feedback. You say your post wasn’t geared to the racer so lets go back and read the comment again right from your post that prompted my initial response above......

Your post....“How many of you are tired of paying $450.00 for a Novarossi 3.5 powerhead or $550.00 for a O.S. to race nitro outboards..... Outboards that could be out of production in a heartbeat....
I have been doing this for a long long time I have seen the RC nitro boating community dwindle for a long time now....
Nitro RC boating needs a good shot in the arm at "grassroots club level"....”

Sounds like a very negative and straightforward attack on the manufacturers (mainly Novarossi and OS) and directed toward the racers to me. Really??? How can you say your post wasn’t geared toward racers with that comment? Yes comments like “Outboards that could be out of production in a heartbeat....” are scare tactics that are going to get a response from me. You may want to go back and change either your reply or your original post as they contradict each other. Negativity like that does nothing but hurt not only the outboard manufacturers but the sport as a whole and spits in the face of the few that still support it.

Ideas on a new tunnel class great, comments like that not so much. Thats not the “shot in the arm” our hobby needs.

I thought long and hard to even respond to this.....But here goes.....I half expected you to get into the attack mode......You have a personal vested interest in this subject.....I don't.....
I said nothing negative in my post about the racers....I was talking about encouraging newbies....
Why would the racer want to put a .28 car motor on a K&B lower unit????
I am not challenging your business bank balance or PayPal account....quite the opposite....In fact I am complementing you on doing this for the racing community.....
I want to change "nothing" in my post.....
Facts as I see them.....
K&B is effectively gone...try and buy a K&B 3.5 outboard.....Thunder Tiger is gone.....O.S. has considered for years to discontinue production of the outboard but responding by raising prices to a level that doesn't ,I feel ,help the hobby.....I realize O.S. has to make money ..... You said it yourself .....it is all about numbers....The less numbers they produce the higher the prices will go......
I know pressure was applied several years by Aqua Craft had to convince O.S. to continue the production of the XM outboard ....
What happens if O.S. raises outboard prices to lets say $700.00 ?? ......[I am just picking a subjective number here]....What does organized outboard racing do then????
In order for O.S. to sell more outboard motors we have to have more "RC outboard nitro boaters" building boats not just "racers" building boats....
In order to do that we need more RC nitro boaters......the question is how do we get newbies involved???
I am done with this subject with you.....My health and age have caught up with me....I no can physically no longer participate in organized racing so ..... eating what I sow is a veiled threat/remark that doesn't mean a thing to me.....have a nice day....

 

[Alan Elzer]

Well said Mic..... great idea Rod....love my tunnels too....!

 

[Geraghty]

Well said Mic..... great idea Rod....love my tunnels too....!

I too also love the outboards....remains to be seen if it is a great idea.....I hope so.......
I hope the idea will grow some legs...
I sent the motor to David Hall today ....he is going to put it on a boat and run it in Huntsville in 2-3 weeks .....he is going to get some good video and we will post that on You Tube for all to see....
All in all that should be interesting....

 

[Mark Poole ModVP]

I don't have a rule book in front of me. I assume .28 falls within the range of C engine?
Rod, the problem with hobbyists building hulls is as soon as they show up at a club's pond they immediately get escorted to someones table where they get told to ditch their play boat and get a real boat, that costs $500. This is the stigma with having an organization and clubs and the club members selling the products. Basically the club pond becomes 'commercialized' and a 'hobbyist' model boater that does not 'buy in' is marginalized. I have seen this countless times. So, where is a guy with a .28 motor and a homemade boat going to play with others?

 

[Ray Sametz]

OMHO, as a kid if were interested you learning from the bottom up. In my case, apprentice to journeyman in the trade I chose to make a living at. Late 1980's started with a MRP tunnel and a stock K&B outboard, graduated from there. Today's young people, few and far between don't want to put in the effort in doing that. Luckly if the R/C boat bug bites them the parents will help with the cost. Here's the problem, they want to start with the biggest and fastest, need transportation to and from the test lake or race. Most parents and kids would rather spent money on a set of VR glasses and joysticks and be able to sit on the couch and have fun. That one in a hundred that want's to enjoy this hobby just needs us to be there to help them. How'd Metallica put it, "Sad but true"

 

[David Ashcroft]

I don't have a rule book in front of me. I assume .28 falls within the range of C engine?
Rod, the problem with hobbyists building hulls is as soon as they show up at a club's pond they immediately get escorted to someones table where they get told to ditch their play boat and get a real boat, that costs $500. This is the stigma with having an organization and clubs and the club members selling the products. Basically the club pond becomes 'commercialized' and a 'hobbyist' model boater that does not 'buy in' is marginalized. I have seen this countless times. So, where is a guy with a .28 motor and a homemade boat going to play with others?

4.66cc

 

[Kris Flynn]

Well done Rod, you are making valid statements, it is a shame some people continue to take anything constructive in a negative light and make it all about them.

Ron, for all the good your business does with getting Novarossi in peoples hands at reasonable pricing, your BS comments on FB and on here do 10x more damage lol

Someone told me the perfect comment, "Ron is our the drug dealer for our RC addiction" LOL

You can cry all you want, but you are the one with the negative comments here, in a thread which Rod started (I saw it from the positive side which I am sure Rod intended) to get the talk flowing about REAL WORLD fixes to the issues at hand!

 

[Kris Flynn]

I too also love the outboards....remains to be seen if it is a great idea.....I hope so.......
I hope the idea will grow some legs...
I sent the motor to David Hall today ....he is going to put it on a boat and run it in Huntsville in 2-3 weeks .....he is going to get some good video and we will post that on You Tube for all to see....
All in all that should be interesting....

So now we all need to get together and create a JAE Tunnel Hull??!!! THAT will get people interested in F1 tunnels for sure...while the price of a competitive hull/kit is not ridiculous, it is still a lot more than a JAE kit!

 

[Shane Bastick]

Great Idea Kris, a JAE tunnel would be great, and Great ideas and thoughts Rod, many of us model boaters around the world just like to build and run boats for fun, I hope Rod's idea with the cheap outboard gets off the ground,
maybe a downsized Illusion Tunnel that Zippkits sells, could become a new affordable tunnel in 21 size

 

[Bill Gibson]

Tunnels got me started in this madness....also, bought a JAE .12 for way less than 100 bucks when they first came out.....bought a JAE 33" FE for 109 bucks......bought a JAE TWIN SHORT KIT for well under 150 bucks.....they are strange looking boats that fly that I can afford to play with or race and I love em! Price is a concern in this hobby for a larger number than we realize.I think ML boatworks, Blazer Marine, and other wood kit makers help the hobby with reasonable prices, but its uphill battle to get those who want everything done yesterday to even become interested in what is my favorite part of the hobby.....building boats whether they get raced or not! Ron Shaw runs a very professional business with Nova Rossi......we need more of that....im crazy about the motors and the service is first rate!

 

[Bill Gibson]

Tunnels got me started in this madness....also, bought a JAE .12 for way less than 100 bucks when they first came out.....bought a JAE 33" FE for 109 bucks......bought a JAE TWIN SHORT KIT for well under 150 bucks.....they are strange looking boats that fly that I can afford to play with or race and I love em! Price is a concern in this hobby for a larger number than we realize.I think ML boatworks, Blazer Marine, and other wood kit makers help the hobby with reasonable prices, but its uphill battle to get those who want everything done yesterday to even become interested in what is my favorite part of the hobby.....building boats whether they get raced or not! Ron Shaw runs a very professional business with Nova Rossi......we need more of that....im crazy about the motors and the service is first rate!

 

[Geraghty]

I don't have a rule book in front of me. I assume .28 falls within the range of C engine?
Rod, the problem with hobbyists building hulls is as soon as they show up at a club's pond they immediately get escorted to someones table where they get told to ditch their play boat and get a real boat, that costs $500. This is the stigma with having an organization and clubs and the club members selling the products. Basically the club pond becomes 'commercialized' and a 'hobbyist' model boater that does not 'buy in' is marginalized. I have seen this countless times. So, where is a guy with a .28 motor and a homemade boat going to play with others?

It all starts with the first boat being built and put on You Tube....then it goes where it goes from there.....
That is what happened with JAE....The first .12 boat was built in Finland from the plans we released on RC Universe....A video came out of it running and it was like somebody pulled the grenade pin.....
I will stand by what I said originally....This .28 motor adapter isn't aimed at the "racer"....When the JAE was released it wasn't aimed at the racer either......This effort is just a possible vehicle to get new boaters involved...Same as the JAE was originally.....Somebody will have to just try one and it all starts there.....
We are looking for the "new guy" and....and.....possibly it will graduate to "club" level and the clubs will have to figure out a way not to discourage newbies if they want to grow the clubs membership....
I guarantee you if a couple of these boats were to show up at the pond the club will make arrangements to be inclusive and they will be welcomed to the RC boating fold....
Maybe in the future the .28 Outlaw tunnel will become a class...but .....frankly I don't give a good god dam if it does....I just want newbies considering getting into RC to try RC "nitro" boating as a possibility....

 

[Geraghty]

So now we all need to get together and create a JAE Tunnel Hull??!!! THAT will get people interested in F1 tunnels for sure...while the price of a competitive hull/kit is not ridiculous, it is still a lot more than a JAE kit!

Funny you should mention this....
This effort has already been in the mill for the last 3-4 weeks......
Zipp - Joe Petro , Mike Walker and myself are already working on this ........
It will be a very simple boat to build and it would be designed for the .28 Outlaw outboard.....
With three bananas I could teach a monkey to build this boat ....lol
I don't really know where this is going yet but a prototype is soon to be in the works....

 

[Grimracer]

To think this "IDEA" was an attack on anybody or any part of this industry or hobby is VERY strange to me. I cannot wrap my head around that.

I am not going to jump into this to deep but can tell you from my past years we are one conversation away from loosing a VERY good product.. The OS outboard.. BUT THEN.. we have for a number of years now been in that very spot... without the support of "what was" I can see this being more challenging then before.

In the end it will come down to numbers.. If we can grow any part of this hobby and in this case we are suggesting outboards.. the rest of the hobby will gain in strength too be it racing or sport running.

If we can keep the sport numbers up.. larger racing numbers will be a natural result. I should go on to say then.. that this can start to be reciprocal. "what wins on sunday.......... well.. you all get it..

Grimracer

 

[Bill Gibson]

Extremely good points Mike! I for one started out as a "play boater" for a good amount of time before i ever got into the racing side.....and i still build some boats just to run for fun....but one side can most definitely help the other in this hobby/sport.......

 

[DeanJohnson]

Hi Rod,
I think this is a fantastic idea. I recall watching a video of David Hall's JAE on Youtube and couldnt wait to get my hands on one. Prior to that I had no experience with building hydros and the thought of designing and building one from scratch was daunting. Since then I've built 4.

One can get by just fine with inexpensive electronics from HobbyKing, so for yucks, I put together a pricing list of essentials using Ebay and HobbyKing as references:

Hull: TBD
Engine Conversion Kit: $35
Lower Unit - ?
Engine: $95 (Ofna Hyper 7 w/ pullstart)
Exhaust: $14 (includes header)
Throtle Servo: $7 (hobbyking)
Steering Servo: $17 (hobbyking)
Radio w/ Receiver: $27 (hobbyking)
Prop: $25~
Misc Hardware: $30

Lets say the hull cost is in line with the JAE .21, so put it at $99. I really don't know the cost of a K&B lower, but for the sake of the conversation let's value it at $50. If these valuations are accurate, you can buy yourself a majority of what you'd need to run this class for $400. You obviously have your building materials cost... sand paper, glue, epoxy, etc but I consider those costs "per build" nominal as you can use these supplies amongst multiple builds.

I dabble in RC cars, both bashers and indoor high bite clay buggies, and there's no way in hell you're getting a decent basher or entry level (but still competitive) buggy for $400. I have an 1/8th scale ebuggy that for the chassis along ran me $700. People spend well over this amount multiple times daily on rc cars. With more positive contributions from us boaters, I imagine we can garner some interest from the car community, especially at a $400~ price point. If this tunnel came to fruition, I'd build one and bring it with me to all the local rc car club races. 30 racers on a week night club race and 50+ on weekends - gotta think a few would be interested enough to give it a try.

I would be an immediate buyer if you guys came out with a tunnel.

Thank you for your continued contributions and innovation to this hobby.

Dean Johnson

 

[RonShaw]

To think this "IDEA" was an attack on anybody or any part of this industry or hobby is VERY strange to me. I cannot wrap my head around that.

I am not going to jump into this to deep but can tell you from my past years we are one conversation away from loosing a VERY good product.. The OS outboard.. BUT THEN.. we have for a number of years now been in that very spot... without the support of "what was" I can see this being more challenging then before.

In the end it will come down to numbers.. If we can grow any part of this hobby and in this case we are suggesting outboards.. the rest of the hobby will gain in strength too be it racing or sport running.

If we can keep the sport numbers up.. larger racing numbers will be a natural result. I should go on to say then.. that this can start to be reciprocal. "what wins on sunday.......... well.. you all get it..

Grimracer

Exactly Mike. I love the second part of Rods post but totally do not get his motives in the first part. Go back and read the first part. He says he wasnt talking about racers but after I pointed out exactly what he posted and my concern as to how he threw two manufacturers that are still supporting the tunnel racers, (Novarossi and OS) completely under the bus about pricing and that that may go out of business, and then he throws the “health” card as an excuse. If OS and Nova walk away from outboards, we all lose. He says he doesnt have a vested interest but his post is all against two manufacturers and all positive on the one he has interest in, JAE. His health didnt get in the way of him making a negative post but only when he was called out. Anyway, no plusses at this point going forward, only negative. Rod can say whatever but his own post contradicts his explanation. What could have been a great thread was preceded with un-needed negativity and manuf bashing.

 

[DannyOliver]

Hey guys I just want to say five or six of us have made the investment to buy some nitro outboards. We run gas boats but most of us started with nitro years ago. We ran the outboards and I remember how much fun they are, so the nitro nationals are coming up, here in April. We spent the money to help get these boat classes going here. The problem is if we don’t get some more people to come they are talking about canceling the race. So I would like to see more outboards entered,so please get signed up soon. I promise you want be disappointed coming down here to race and the food alone is worth it,so please come help us get some interest in the nitro stuff going here. Thanks Danny

 

[RonShaw]

Hey guys I just want to say five or six of us have made the investment to buy some nitro outboards. We run gas boats but most of us started with nitro years ago. We ran the outboards and I remember how much fun they are, so the nitro nationals are coming up, here in April. We spent the money to help get these boat classes going here. The problem is if we don’t get some more people to come they are talking about canceling the race. So I would like to see more outboards entered,so please get signed up soon. I promise you want be disappointed coming down here to race and the food alone is worth it,so please come help us get some interest in the nitro stuff going here. Thanks Danny

Danny, been following the entries. I was hopeful more NAMBA guys from the West may be able to attend due to the location to help fill this IMPBA event. I hoped to come personally but the family conflicts during that time of year will keep us from attending. Fingers crossed that entries pick up soon. BTW, you will love tunnel racing. Some of the best drivers in the country race these classes. Good luck.

 

[Geraghty]

I want to publicly thank all the boaters that have posted their support for this possible way of bringing in newbies into the hobby of RC nitro boating...........
I also want to thank the 30+ PM's I have received so far supporting this possible way to bring in new RC "nitro" boaters to the fold.....All these boaters know where I was trying to go with this subject....
According to you the decline of outboards being offered by any manufacturers I guess is just a big hoax and illusion because they all just hate outboards....
The manufacturers must be selling so many nitro outboards that they are just going to continue to raise prices so they can sell some more outboards.....and ....that will bring in more RC nitro boaters.....
Ron is right about one thing.......I do have an interest in Zipp [JAE... that is just a name] possibly offering a 3.5 tunnel so a boat and motor package is available to the newbie
at a price point that encourages the newbie to try nitro RC boating.......
Dam , I just had an interesting thought......It would be interesting to know just how many Novarossi LS's you have sold because of JAE.....But , that's another subject for another time.....
I never once bashed the manufacturers....All I did was to speak the truth about outboard availability and price....Never once did I ever say they are price gouging or made a bad product.....it is just about sales numbers.....
As to a vested interest:Never once have I ever filled out a deposit slip to bank the royalties I have received from the JAE sales.....
When David Hall and I started the JAE effort Zipp wasn't even on the radar...All we offered was free plans....When Zipp came to us and said they could offer an inexpensive kit and our "only" requirement was don't change the design of the boat.....
It has been a good partnership between JAE and Zipp and we believe the RC nitro and FE boating community has benefited from that partnership...The price point that Zipp offers for boats has encouraged boaters to come and try the hobby...

As to the reference to my health ...according to you my health is just an excuse , ok lets explore that remark...My health history.....Fact : I am designated 100% disabled by the V.A. because of my health .....we all know how easy it is for the V.A to admit responsibility for service connected injuries.....It is easier to catch a fart with a fish net than get the V.A. to step up and take responsibility.....the swamp does not give up easily....It took the V.A. 35 years to step up to the Viet Nam plate....
How about this.....I stick your ass in tent of Agent Orange for 6-8 months in Southeast Asia for a year and see how you handle it....not to mention the 8 months I spent in the hospital because of the injuries I received in Viet Nam ..
I have had somewhere between 6-8 heart attacks , 2 open heart surgeries ,2 pace makers and a De-fib installed ......I have less than a 10% heart ejection fraction....I have more wires snaked into my heart than there are in a RC boats radio box....I am only as good as the Duracell in in my chest ....
I have severe diabetes , neuropathy , and a prostate that is complete junk....I take 12 prescription drugs and 2 injections twice a day....I don't drink or smoke......I am over weight but vigorous physical exercise is out of the question....hell going up a set of stairs is a challenge....even walking to the mailbox is a challenge.....that's enough of that sxxt.....
I haven't had a totally good day for probably over 35 years....I really just cannot really remember....most of my good days have been being able to participate in RC boat racing ....RC boat racing has done more for me that I could ever do for it....
I am now 78 and my first heart attack came at 38 and it has been all downhill from there.....
You will probably say this is just a play for the "sympathy card" because you called me out....it isn't , these are just the facts....As far as I am concerned "sympathy" is just a word in between sxxt and sorry in the dictionary.....
My life has always been out in the bright sunshine for all to criticize.....I am not ashamed of any of it.....There , now its all out in the light of day and that's my "health history" as of the moment....
I will let the RC boating community decide if I am just playing the "health and now sympathy card".......
You however have changed my mind about one thing....I did say I was done talking about this but that was before you made this personal......
I also want to thank you for one other thing......I now have a good reason now for getting up in the morning and working very hard on the development of a 3.5 Zipp tunnel.....