FE faces some interesting challenges.

[Don Ferrette]

The current FE rules (voltage, length restrictions etc.) are a result of the introduction of LiPo. Brushless motors were already being run.

Nitro-twins are separate, LSG- twins are separate, FE- twins are allowed in Q,S,& T. I guess that makes sense.

Tell me again why twins aren't allowed in A-F classes (2xA -2xF) and LSG 27 & 36...…….

Actually Doug twins are allowed in ALL nitro mono and hydro classes as long as you meet displacement limits. A twin .21 is legal in D (45) classes, a twin .29 is legal in the E (67) classes and of course twin .91s are legal in F (1.83) hydro-

I know that my brother.

In your haste to bust my azz

you overlooked (2xA - 2xF)^^^^^^^

See ya at the pond!

LOL! not bustin' your azz, still luv ya brutha! Like I said you gents carry on as I've said enough.

 

[Jeffmaturo]

Welcome back Don,

I know text on forums are difficult to interrupt soI will give you the benefit of the doubt because your not a mind reader. Who in real life says "hogwash"? It was tongue and cheek in reference to your swearing on this forum. My point is simple. No one person dictates what the rules are. Put them to vote, if the majority says Yes than it is Yes. If they say no, well you get the idea. First and foremost, CHILL OUT, nobody including me wants you to have a heart attack over someone disagreeing with you. We are dealing with it on a local level. I am trying to identify areas that need to be addressed on a national level. The entire title to this thread is

FE faces some interesting challengesWe are all on here because we like racing boats and FE is of particular interest to us. Lets work together, put it to vote and then put it to rest. If it is voted down, it wasn't that big of a deal to begin with. If it passes, well then I guess it was. Either way I will support either organizations ruling and continue to boat and have fun. I am a little confused though, are people against voting because the cost associated with it are excessive? If that is the reason I can appreciate that.

 

[Jeffmaturo]

The current FE rules (voltage, length restrictions etc.) are a result of the introduction of LiPo. Brushless motors were already being run.

Nitro-twins are separate, LSG- twins are separate, FE- twins are allowed in Q,S,& T. I guess that makes sense.

Tell me again why twins aren't allowed in A-F classes (2xA -2xF) and LSG 27 & 36...…….

Doug always appreciate your input, thanks. I don't know if you have any current connection with IMPBA or NAMBA but I am sure with all your know how and helpful can do attitude you may be able to get something done. What is the process for bringing it to vote? I understand if you don't know, maybe someone else can answer that part. I know with you chiming in something is sure to get done! Kind of like the thread on OSE about motor rules for P spec

 

[RaceMechaniX]

This is a decade old debate which tore apart many racers when lipo's were first introduced and new rules were formed. Those of you who remember the RRR forum will recall the bloody bouts between high level racers. Today twins have a competitive edge in NAMBA and IMPBA due to the almost non-existent capacity limit. IMPBA has no limit and NAMBA has a very generous limit. If we use cat's or riggers as an example you can run one high output motor with two parallel cells or two smaller single motors with one pack per motor. Given today's lipo power available you can run a huge amount of power in single or twins. It's really limited by what controller you have to harness the power and what will fit within the length limits of the class. Unlike nitro and gas twins, FE twins are much easier to set-up and run for the average boater. Very careful component selection is necessary to have a good balance from side to side, it's not as straight forward as one would think. You can have identical equipment on the left and right, but if the controllers do not sync well you will fight pull from side to side. Controllers and motors that accelerate evenly are a challenge more than most would think.

It is not a one to one comparison to running a single nitro motor with a large displacement versus a pair of smaller engines with a combined capacity equal to the large single relative to FE. Hence a twin with today's battery tech has a power advantage assuming the user can set-up and harness the power which is not always the case. Cats in particular are best suited for twins, especially for offshore racing where left and right hand turns exist and counter rotating props can be exploited. This is rarely the case for nitro and gas where left hand rotation is king.

At the national level, you see a healthy mix of systems in the non-limited classes. 90% of all boats are still singles, even in Q cat. You will see $400 power systems evenly matched with a $2000 power system. It's the guy who is consistent, prepared and dialed in that usually wins. Not the guy with the deepest pockets or fastest outright speed. Same is true for gas and nitro at the end of the day.

At the local level come up with a single Q class. Impose motor limits if needed or capacity limits. Use whatever works and is fair that still hopefully attracts new members.

When we start discussing national level rules this has a much larger impact than club racing.

-Tyler

 

[longballlumber]

Spot on. I agree also that it is now a CAT issue, but wait until someone shows up with a twin mono. This is not a difficult problem to fix, a simple rules change and its done.

Jeff, the best suggestion I have at this point is to submit a proposal to change the rule. As you can see not everyone agrees how twins should be managed in the FE world.

https://nebula.wsimg.com/6d8054fd8fca82f7a51da4c1d52d572a?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

IMPBA Rule Book Article VIII - Amendments

 

[Terry Keeley]

As a nitro guy this doesn't affect me personally, but as CD of the Can-Am and two FAST record trials per year I was amazed when I discovered this fact.

If this rule set transferred to nitro I could run twin 45's in a "single" 45 class (IMPBA D hydro). Or twin 67's in the single 67 class (IMPBA E hydro). My hulls wouldn't necessarily be any faster but they would accelerate much quicker and could be 1/3 bigger to handle race water better which would be a clear advantage.

Our F hydro class has a wide displacement range so that's where we get twins and singles running together, but if someone made a 30cc nitro motor it would compete well against twin 15cc power plants.

Don't seem right to me but I don't have a solution for you guys, sorry...

 

[LohringMiller]

I would think that with equal total power the drag of two propeller shafts would make twins slower. The advantage of a twin is eliminating torque and prop walk with counter rotating props. Since those effects cause some additional drag, that could reduce the drag advantage of a single shaft. Another effect is from prop diameter. Since the total power of a twin is split between two props, they should have a smaller diameter than a prop on a single with the same total power. That again should make the single's prp more efficient.

As far as I know, all the fastest SAW records are held by single shaft boats. Electric cats are very fast, however. They can be built with stinger drives that are low drag. Cat hulls probably won't be as fast as riggers of the same power, though.

Lohring Miller

 

[Terry Keeley]

I would think that with equal total power the drag of two propeller shafts would make twins slower. The advantage of a twin is eliminating torque and prop walk with counter rotating props. Since those effects cause some additional drag, that could reduce the drag advantage of a single shaft. Another effect is from prop diameter. Since the total power of a twin is split between two props, they should have a smaller diameter than a prop on a single with the same total power. That again should make the single's prp more efficient.

As far as I know, all the fastest SAW records are held by single shaft boats. Electric cats are very fast, however. They can be built with stinger drives that are low drag. Cat hulls probably won't be as fast as riggers of the same power, though.

Lohring Miller

Pretty sure the IMPBA P, Q, S & T Catamaran SAW records are twins:

Pg. 6: https://nebula.wsimg.com/044d74be450c5cba8f56e7b444ebeae1?AccessKeyId=ACA7381D2BFC72351748&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

 

[HTV Boats]

IMPBA allows twins in Q and above. NAMBA allows twins in P and above.

The IMPBA cat SAW records respectively are:

P-78.508 mph (NAMBA P record w twins - 102.881 mph)

Q- 112.163

S- 128.278

T-119.836

The Mono records are:

P-79.730

Q-77.293

S-79.874

T-91.974

Hydros, Sport Hydros and Tunnels and similar in differences to Mono records

Mic

 

[RaceMechaniX]

I say with high confidence most SAW boats are unique compared to their oval brethren and don't cross over well. It is true all the SAW records for CAT's are held with twin set-ups possibly with one exception in the single cell class. This includes US rules and European rules where twins are allowed even in the single cell classes. I just returned from the Munich SAW event where racers are truly pushing the limits. I watched a 4 cell non-paralleled twin motor cat run 109mph. I watched an 8 cell non-paralleled cat run 142mph. And of course Joerg M just ran over 200mph with a 8 cell hydro!

Want a good laugh, watch any SAW boat try to turn at oval racing speeds. They just flip and role.

 

[LohringMiller]

IMPBA allows twins in Q and above. NAMBA allows twins in P and above.

The IMPBA cat SAW records respectively are:

P-78.508 mph (NAMBA P record w twins - 102.881 mph)

Q- 112.163

S- 128.278

T-119.836

The Mono records are:

P-79.730

Q-77.293

S-79.874

T-91.974

Hydros, Sport Hydros and Tunnels and similar in differences to Mono records

Mic

And all the IMPBA hydro records are faster. I believe they were all set with single prop setups. Cats are a special case where twins are a natural. Also the torque countering effects of an electric twin should help handling for two lap records. However, outside of cats, are any two lap records held by twins?

Lohring Miller

 

[Jeffmaturo]

I think just by talking about this we are heading in the right direction. Doesn't sound like it will happen over night but I think brought to a vote we can tell exactly what a majority of members want. Either way, I will support the decision and move forward. Lohring, I honestly don't know about that but as you have said, twins do have an advantage.

 

[T.S.Davis]

The spec classes still have the best dollar to giggles ratio of all of our classes in my opinion. They were never intended to be a beginner class. The intent was for it to be a place for everyone that wasn't necessarily dominated by someone's wallet. A class for the new guy and the veteran to coexist in pieceful harmony. (picture me typing with butterflies flitting about)

If you look at Mike's IMPBA recommendation for 4s spec motors you'll find very little hand wringing over it. With the exception of the weight. It may need to be shaved a tic. 260 grams maybe vs 265 grams? We've raced the crap out of this for a couple seasons now. Ran all kinds of variants too. From the most expensive to the least. Middle of the road cost motors are still the best option we've seen so far. My brat kid killed everyone this season with the relatively inexpensive Proboat motor option in spec sport. My point is, you can't buy wins with the Mike's suggested guide. Not so far at least.

I really think it could be a rule but getting the BOD to agree to it is a tall task. Primarily because some have been such complete jack holes while we prove the concept. The perception is that it's too controversial and no matter what someone will be crying. I think this latest rendition that Mike has outlined is so close to correct that it should/could/would put it to rest for quite some time.

The twins thing you have to see to appreciate. A single cat no matter who set it up is absolutely not in the same league as a well set up twin cat. SAW or oval. Sorry, it isn't. Watched PAGS and Baffer run with Larry at the CanAm. PAGS has won so many national championships in Q cat that he probably has more wins than anyone since LiPo were added to the rule book. Baffers boat is a direct copy. So two of the best cats in the country. Larry's twin boat will leave them for dead. He's got multiple stable mph on them. That's not to say Larry can put it on the pins but put that boat in the hands of someone that can and then what? Hosed.

I don't have a solve for that either but don't kid yerselves, a single and a twin Q cat have no business competing with each other. As it sits today, if you're going to race Q cat in the north you better be building a twin. PAGS is working on one right now. One of our locals is too.

Not sure on the mono twins. They don't work as well. We saw a twin Q mono in Flint for the trial. The problem appeared to be (to me at least) that the props lift the boat up and out of the water quite a bit. So almost no keel in the water. Just the rudder. Especially at 75mph+. If a wisp of wind or a lateral wave tilts the boat even a few degrees you end up with one prop in the water and no keel in the water. Shawn finally killed his boat this way. Came off in the mid 70's

 

[Terry Keeley]

The spec classes still have the best dollar to giggles ratio of all of our classes in my opinion. They were never intended to be a beginner class. The intent was for it to be a place for everyone that wasn't necessarily dominated by someone's wallet. A class for the new guy and the veteran to coexist in pieceful harmony. (picture me typing with butterflies flitting about)

If you look at Mike's IMPBA recommendation for 4s spec motors you'll find very little hand wringing over it. With the exception of the weight. It may need to be shaved a tic. 260 grams maybe vs 265 grams? We've raced the crap out of this for a couple seasons now. Ran all kinds of variants too. From the most expensive to the least. Middle of the road cost motors are still the best option we've seen so far. My brat kid killed everyone this season with the relatively inexpensive Proboat motor option in spec sport. My point is, you can't buy wins with the Mike's suggested guide. Not so far at least.

I really think it could be a rule but getting the BOD to agree to it is a tall task. Primarily because some have been such complete jack holes while we prove the concept. The perception is that it's too controversial and no matter what someone will be crying. I think this latest rendition that Mike has outlined is so close to correct that it should/could/would put it to rest for quite some time.

The twins thing you have to see to appreciate. A single cat no matter who set it up is absolutely not in the same league as a well set up twin cat. SAW or oval. Sorry, it isn't. Watched PAGS and Baffer run with Larry at the CanAm. PAGS has won so many national championships in Q cat that he probably has more wins than anyone since LiPo were added to the rule book. Baffers boat is a direct copy. So two of the best cats in the country. Larry's twin boat will leave them for dead. He's got multiple stable mph on them. That's not to say Larry can put it on the pins but put that boat in the hands of someone that can and then what? Hosed.

I don't have a solve for that either but don't kid yerselves, a single and a twin Q cat have no business competing with each other. As it sits today, if you're going to race Q cat in the north you better be building a twin. PAGS is working on one right now. One of our locals is too.

Not sure on the mono twins. They don't work as well. We saw a twin Q mono in Flint for the trial. The problem appeared to be (to me at least) that the props lift the boat up and out of the water quite a bit. So almost no keel in the water. Just the rudder. Especially at 75mph+. If a wisp of wind or a lateral wave tilts the boat even a few degrees you end up with one prop in the water and no keel in the water. Shawn finally killed his boat this way. Came off in the mid 70's

Where's the like button?

 

[Jeffmaturo]

Terry,

That is exactly why I started this thread. This is one of several things that has to be looked at. The solution is simple, run twins separately.

 

[RaceMechaniX]

The spec classes still have the best dollar to giggles ratio of all of our classes in my opinion. They were never intended to be a beginner class. The intent was for it to be a place for everyone that wasn't necessarily dominated by someone's wallet. A class for the new guy and the veteran to coexist in pieceful harmony. (picture me typing with butterflies flitting about)

If you look at Mike's IMPBA recommendation for 4s spec motors you'll find very little hand wringing over it. With the exception of the weight. It may need to be shaved a tic. 260 grams maybe vs 265 grams? We've raced the crap out of this for a couple seasons now. Ran all kinds of variants too. From the most expensive to the least. Middle of the road cost motors are still the best option we've seen so far. My brat kid killed everyone this season with the relatively inexpensive Proboat motor option in spec sport. My point is, you can't buy wins with the Mike's suggested guide. Not so far at least.

I really think it could be a rule but getting the BOD to agree to it is a tall task. Primarily because some have been such complete jack holes while we prove the concept. The perception is that it's too controversial and no matter what someone will be crying. I think this latest rendition that Mike has outlined is so close to correct that it should/could/would put it to rest for quite some time.

The twins thing you have to see to appreciate. A single cat no matter who set it up is absolutely not in the same league as a well set up twin cat. SAW or oval. Sorry, it isn't. Watched PAGS and Baffer run with Larry at the CanAm. PAGS has won so many national championships in Q cat that he probably has more wins than anyone since LiPo were added to the rule book. Baffers boat is a direct copy. So two of the best cats in the country. Larry's twin boat will leave them for dead. He's got multiple stable mph on them. That's not to say Larry can put it on the pins but put that boat in the hands of someone that can and then what? Hosed.

I don't have a solve for that either but don't kid yerselves, a single and a twin Q cat have no business competing with each other. As it sits today, if you're going to race Q cat in the north you better be building a twin. PAGS is working on one right now. One of our locals is too.

Not sure on the mono twins. They don't work as well. We saw a twin Q mono in Flint for the trial. The problem appeared to be (to me at least) that the props lift the boat up and out of the water quite a bit. So almost no keel in the water. Just the rudder. Especially at 75mph+. If a wisp of wind or a lateral wave tilts the boat even a few degrees you end up with one prop in the water and no keel in the water. Shawn finally killed his boat this way. Came off in the mid 70's

At least in Q offshore a single mono is pretty damn competitive against a single or twin Q cat. I lost a national championship by one buoy cut.

 

[T.S.Davis]

True Tyler but I wouldn't put you in the "average" boat guy category. No offense to the rest of us intended. You're Q mono set the record that was held by my Q mono. Those two are not the norm. Where is that sticking my tongue out emogy? There!!

I whooped up on a Larry with the Wildthing in offshore the first year he brought it out myself. I can't say for sure if I was faster or Larry was not on the pins. Could have been either or. The hair pin definitely gives us an edge I think. That was the last time I beat him I think. I got noth'n for him now. It's gotten even better......or he's gotten used to it. Not sure.

 

[T.S.Davis]

Terry,

That is exactly why I started this thread. This is one of several things that has to be looked at. The solution is simple, run twins separately.

My concern is that we already have a LOT of FE classes that don't get filled.

If you're not racing then who cares? Build a quad cat if it's just fer your own grin. If you have 4 FE cat guys in one city that want to race though. 2 build twin Q cats, 2 build single Q cats. They get to..........not race..... at all. No heats. That's what they get. We already have this problem. I don't think we have the population to justify both. Again, I don't have a sensible solve for everyone.

May actually BE offensive but us FE guys are scatter brained. Me too. Makes it hard to field heats.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Terry,

That is exactly why I started this thread. This is one of several things that has to be looked at. The solution is simple, run twins separately.

My concern is that we already have a LOT of FE classes that don't get filled.

If you're not racing then who cares? Build a quad cat if it's just fer your own grin. If you have 4 FE cat guys in one city that want to race though. 2 build twin Q cats, 2 build single Q cats. They get to..........not race..... at all. No heats. That's what they get. We already have this problem. I don't think we have the population to justify both. Again, I don't have a sensible solve for everyone.

May actually BE offensive but us FE guys are scatter brained. Me too. Makes it hard to field heats.

DING! DING! DING! Pass Terry a cigar for bringing reality into the picture. Like I suggested 2 pages ago, offer a "single only" Q cat class in the areas where there is an issue. We did it in F hydro nitro and it's been VERY popular. The single Q boats have a singles class now and can still run with the twins in regular Q cat class if they choose. That's potentially two classes to run in with one boat, more play time for the boater and the host club gets more entries.

 

[T.S.Davis]

Just sharing thoughts. What if twin classes existed only for time trials? Then allow clubs to do a twin sprint class on their own should they have the desire.

Honestly we could do that with half of our current class list. Nobody oval races N anything anymore. Well few. I know of none but I don't know every electric gang of misfits. We keep things like N on the books for two or three guys that run that once per year at a SAW event. What's our goal here? I guess for me..........I want guys on the water together. That makes races. Like minded fools running together is where it's at for me. Time trials are cool. I do that too but it aint racing. Has anyone ever seen a heat of say.......Q outboard tunnels? Cool and all but 1 guy per 1000 racers isn't a very good reason to have it on the books. New guy looks in the book. Finds Q tunnel. "That sounds sweet! I always liked tunnel boats!" Builds it. Finds zero places to race. Quits.

Having too many classes is the result of us FE guys insisting on having national rules for every idea we ever had. Raising my hand. Guilty! That dates back to us being told in my NAMBA days that we had to follow class rules in the book or we were not insured. Having studied the book close enough to recite it..........it was a BS interpretation. Ancient history. Back then IMPBA kinda followed NAMBA's lead in an effort to accommodate crossovers. Voltage, length limits, sport hydro dims all came from NAMBA. Now we're stuck with too many in both organizations. Getting something IN the book......not that hard. Getting something out? Forget it. It's there forever. Think NAMBA still has ECO. Cool idea. Nobody races that in the states.

If we just separate twins out it could potentially double our class count. There aren't that many FE nuts to begin with. Are we wanting heats or not? Giving us twice the classes has the potential to end organized events. Again, I can't get my head around a solution. Other than the time trial only idea.

Circle back to spec/limited. Does it make sense that the BOD might be apprehensive? Adds 4 more classes to spread us across what's already too many. We never let old classes go away ever so it would just be............more. Plus, if we don't test it to death and get it right it's literally like rocket surgery to fix it. Look how many years NAMBA guys have argued about limited. The IMPBA BOD has had fellas threaten to "blow the whistle" on them or some such nonsense for not just slamming it through. That always makes people hop to it. Level heads prevailed.

We're close on spec rules. We've not seen signs of motor dominance. No buying a custom one off motor killing everyone. Every fuel source has had the new hotness motor you just gotta have. We'll still get that. We went through it with batteries. Sub C cells had a new version sometimes twice per season. Talk about dollar racing. Then it was motors. Aveox, Hacker, Lehner, Neu.........ahhhhhhhh. Lately it' been props. So many new ways to push. It's racing. We're all looking for edge of the envelope.

I think for now it's safe to let the numbers tell us if spec needs to be in the book. Just my opinion.

Previewed it. Sorry guys. Wrote a novel again.