Engine & Boat Tuning for Methanol

[hydro]

I just got off the phone with FHS and a gallon of 50 percent in 16 quarts quantity is now $53.94 Not including shipping. WOW and he was not sure if they will ever get any more nitro from any source, maybe never. Looks like methanol is going to be the new wave of the future for all glow engines or just start running Zenoah's which is looking better all the time.

 

[Don Ferrette]

.... For local races no big deal but at a national event fuel should then be monitored. Why wouldn't someone such as Red Max or Morgans want to be the official fuel at the Internats or any National race?

And interesting thought but the down side is it opens the door for just what is causing all the ruckus in drag racing now. The NHRA decided to go the "approved fuel" route & VP/Wego became the chosen supplier. Do a little on-line digging & check what happened to the nitro prices from race gas suppliers when this took effect. Not saying Morgan's or RedMax (FHS) would do the same but why even go there?

 

[piper_chuck]

.... For local races no big deal but at a national event fuel should then be monitored. Why wouldn't someone such as Red Max or Morgans want to be the official fuel at the Internats or any National race?

And interesting thought but the down side is it opens the door for just what is causing all the ruckus in drag racing now. The NHRA decided to go the "approved fuel" route & VP/Wego became the chosen supplier. Do a little on-line digging & check what happened to the nitro prices from race gas suppliers when this took effect. Not saying Morgan's or RedMax (FHS) would do the same but why even go there?

Since boat racing is a very small percentage of the overall R/C fuel market, giving an exclusive to one vendor for a limited time would not introduce the same situation that's happening with drag racing. After all, it's easy enough to do a price comparison to FAI fuel to confirm they're really giving the best deal. In addition, since the fuel would be purchased in bulk for events, people would be able to benefit from the price breaks offered for larger quantities.

 

[Terry Keeley]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Tim_Duggan]

This topic is starting to get a similar feel to the IMPBA noise rule arguments of a few years back..... It would be nice to keep a thread on track rather than debating whether it's warranted or not.

Some comments have been made to indicate exhaust temps are higher on Meth/Oil than Meth / Oil /Nitro. Would it be a fair assumption that the higher EGT's would demand a change in physical pipe length and load to maintain the same rpm? That also raises the next question - compression ratio to suit?

 

[dwb2620]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good one! LOL

David

 

[Eric Gadoury]

I've been following this thread and here's my input.

Last year I could not get any pure nitro. Not legally anyway.

I used VP Nitrorace which is a blend of 50% nitro and 50% methanol.

I ajusted my recipe accordingly and everything was fine. The only problem, I cannot make anything higher than 40%.

I called my supplier yesterday and ordered a 5 gallon of that mix for about the same price as last year. I should receive in the middle of next week.

I'll see if they receive it but they are usually pretty reliable.

So everything should be fine for me.

But I might try some 0% just to see how it works.

Maybe if you ask your VP dealer in your area he could get some too.

My two cents,

Eric

 

[Ken Retallick]

On Topic!!!

A fella asked what changes were needed for no nitro, Dave Marles is correct, Andy Brown says everyone is doing it wrong!

Come on Andy, spill the beans!! Tell what it is..... or is it all a big speed secret??

 

[Jerry Wyss]

On Topic!!!
A fella asked what changes were needed for no nitro, Dave Marles is correct, Andy Brown says everyone is doing it wrong!

Come on Andy, spill the beans!! Tell what it is..... or is it all a big speed secret??

Andy did leak out a couple ideas Ken, back in post #29,, "lower C/R or lower squish velocity, or both?" They both sound like the right direction to me.

 

[AndyBrown]

I think we should just forget about straight methanol. Dave said it would kill boating.

It seems 10% -15% is good and it seems almost no changes are needed.

That should save us from having to think!

 

[Ken Retallick]

Jerry, i have run no nitro, and i agree with Dave Marles, more compression, lots of heat and much harder to tune correctly. to rich, they dont go, too lean they dont go and make even more heat. very touchy to needle. 10 to 40% nitro makes them much more friendly. 70% plus nitro becomes harder to needle again.

Andy Brown seems to think he knows it all, so why cant he tell us, im sure theres plenty of boaters who will try his ideas and give feedback.

Wonder how many records he set with NO nitro, if its so good ....

 

[Jerry Wyss]

Jerry, i have run no nitro, and i agree with Dave Marles, more compression, lots of heat and much harder to tune correctly. to rich, they dont go, too lean they dont go and make even more heat. very touchy to needle. 10 to 40% nitro makes them much more friendly. 70% plus nitro becomes harder to needle again.
Andy Brown seems to think he knows it all, so why cant he tell us, im sure theres plenty of boaters who will try his ideas and give feedback.

Wonder how many records he set with NO nitro, if its so good ....

yeah I hear ya, It's almost like they're saying, Oh Good! Now we're free from using that awful Nitro, now things will be just as good! :lol: :lol:

I know this, when we're at the drag races, when top alcohol dragsters come to the line, thats when everybody goes to get hot dogs an soda

 

[Preston_Hall]

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the boaters could go to 10% and never see a change other than the fact that they might be able to get a consistant needle and finish a few races with new glow plugs still in their pocket.

I tried straight methanol/oil and something has to happen with the engine because mine a pain just to keep running on the bench. I was using it as after run fuel.

You better quit all this chatter because all you are doing is winding up John Knight.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[John Knight]

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the boaters could go to 10% and never see a change other than the fact that they might be able to get a consistant needle and finish a few races with new glow plugs still in their pocket.
I tried straight methanol/oil and something has to happen with the engine because mine a pain just to keep running on the bench. I was using it as after run fuel.

You better quit all this chatter because all you are doing is winding up John Knight.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nah, not any more. I am convinced that this has been a useless thread as the holders of the essential information is keeping it so tight they think it is the secret of the Holy Grail. And that is too bad as potential option for the racers is a possibility but without some guidance on how to do it. No wonder some things are as they are down south, west and elsewhere. I am through with this. Sorry gang I tried to help all of us.

 

[F.Orlic]

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the boaters could go to 10% and never see a change other than the fact that they might be able to get a consistant needle and finish a few races with new glow plugs still in their pocket.
I tried straight methanol/oil and something has to happen with the engine because mine a pain just to keep running on the bench. I was using it as after run fuel.

You better quit all this chatter because all you are doing is winding up John Knight.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nah, not any more. I am convinced that this has been a useless thread as the holders of the essential information is keeping it so tight they think it is the secret of the Holy Grail. And that is too bad as potential option for the racers is a possibility but without some guidance on how to do it. No wonder some things are as they are down south, west and elsewhere. I am through with this. Sorry gang I tried to help all of us.

As I have stated in before I have very little data on low vs high nitro and none running boats but this is what I have found with my buggy.

Engine was Rb C5 known for great top end but many people complained about bottom end (I would disagree).

First I ran it on 5% stock, it ran OK I have tried few different head buttons (going smaller than stock) no much improvement, two different carbs 8mm and 9mm no noticable diffrence but bit harder to tune. Tried two different pipes still engine ran just OK (maybe I expected too much anyway). So next logical step was to modify it like my boat engines (of course people told me it will not go) so if doesn't work in a buggy I will use it in boat.

I've tried engine on 5% and it ran better but not great.

Next run was on 30%, engine was easy to tune, easy to start and FAST, tons of speed and great bottom end with high gearing.

So why some people have good results with low or no nitro. Good results are very subjective, what might be good for me might not be good for someone else. If engine runs very well on low nitro most likely it is not setup corect for high nitro and vice versa.

I've never ran less than 50% in my boats and as high as 85%. 65%-70% is best for my little engines, no problem with tunning, 85% was real pain with very little luck without propylene oxide.

 

[AndyBrown]

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the boaters could go to 10% and never see a change other than the fact that they might be able to get a consistant needle and finish a few races with new glow plugs still in their pocket.
I tried straight methanol/oil and something has to happen with the engine because mine a pain just to keep running on the bench. I was using it as after run fuel.

You better quit all this chatter because all you are doing is winding up John Knight.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nah, not any more. I am convinced that this has been a useless thread as the holders of the essential information is keeping it so tight they think it is the secret of the Holy Grail. And that is too bad as potential option for the racers is a possibility but without some guidance on how to do it. No wonder some things are as they are down south, west and elsewhere. I am through with this. Sorry gang I tried to help all of us.

John,

My first response to this thread was a short list of suggestions and facts. The purpose was to set the stage for more detailed information.

Then Dave came along and said forget 0%. He tried it and it will not work for most boaters.

Obviously I disagree with Dave about 0%.

Others mentioned running low nitro with good success and Dave agreed.

At that point we were at the stage where I was the only one that says we can run well on 0%.

It is really odd that a few want me to "spill the beans", when at the same time no one agrees with me that 0% will work.

I then stated that we must decide if I have any beans to spill. I tried to carry this on by asking leading questions.

No one seemed to want to dig into any investigation on the hows & whys of Methanol. Knowing the hows & whys would

be valuble when it comes to tuning your 0% set-up.

The next group responded by saying forget low nitro we're not going to run it. (That is why I suggest no Rules concerning fuel.)

This thread was started because I suggested 0% for heatracing in another thread.

Now some recent comments in this thread are suggesting that if I think 0% is so great, why don't I use it for records.

So here we are. No one agrees with me. No one wants to have any investigative disscussion.

In other words:

They don't believe there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

They don't want to walk with me to see if there really is a pot of gold.

They just want to sit and wait for me to bring the pot of gold to them.

"You can't sit down and slide uphill"

Well....my family wants to see me....so 15% will have to work for now.

 

[John Knight]

Andy,

I hear your frustration and I not only share it but most likely exceed it. There are a few people, you being one of them, that have the technical knowledge and expertise to provide the needed guidance to us mere mortals. I would like you to go back to post #1 and look at the questions posed and answer them as best you can. They are honest questions that we all deal with with this hobby. Responding with questions, to questions, does not answer the issue at hand. There will always be differing opinions from what most of us say anytime, but the personal experience or technical of how to do it is still the best for all of us.

Please consider that a don't worry about the naysaysers.

 

[AndyBrown]

Andy,
I hear your frustration and I not only share it but most likely exceed it. There are a few people, you being one of them, that have the technical knowledge and expertise to provide the needed guidance to us mere mortals. I would like you to go back to post #1 and look at the questions posed and answer them as best you can. They are honest questions that we all deal with with this hobby. Responding with questions, to questions, does not answer the issue at hand. There will always be differing opinions from what most of us say anytime, but the personal experience or technical of how to do it is still the best for all of us.

Please consider that a don't worry about the naysaysers.

OK John, my opinions.

I am assuming the methanol is the very same that we use already in the fuel now. Correct? Yes.

What changes from the present nitro setup, for discussion purposes use 50% as that is a fairly standard nitro mix, to go to methanol and oil:

1. Needles? Lower nitro means leaner needles. How much from 50% nitro to 0%? Yes, I don"t know how much, there are several varibles with everyones system.

2. Pipe lengths. Do they change and how? I would keep them the same and use less prop.

3. Pipe volumes? Will they change, ie. get smaller, larger? No, not for pratical puposes, but they could be fine tuned.

5. Any other changes needed? Heads, smaller volume with less squish velocity.

For the guys that have used the straight methanol before, please give some of your experience to those that have not. I have been racing since 1991 and has always been with nitro so I have no experience to draw from.

Less acceleration off the corner. Smooth power on driving is best.

One possible benefit, besides a much lower cost, is that since both nitro and methanol absorb moisture from the air, water contamination with all methanol I would think it should be less of a concern.

Methanol is more hygroscopic than nitro, meaning it easily absorbs water. Keep it well sealed and don't store it for long periods.

 

[AndyBrown]

Andy,
Can you explain more about the head buttons? What are you looking at from a 50% nitro button? How about the head clearances, will they change? Smaller volume with more clearence.

Would 14% oil be sufficient for bushed rods regardless of engine size? I would go with 18-20% for bushed rods.

Thanks for all of us.

 

[tnrcboatracer]

Looks like I got one at least partially right, reduced chamber volume...................

My thought was the leaner mixture is less mass to be compressed. After all, nitromethan is only liquid oxygen; but since it is a liquid, it is volume and mass in the chamber. Thus less chamber volume is appropriate.