Discussion on lowering nitro %

[Frankor Jagerstack]

I have a few questions.

One, what needs to be done in order to run a lower nitro percentage and be competitive?

Two, who is willing to share their findings?

I am all about getting more economy out of a setup, and I bet a lot of readers here would love to know what you're doing in order to be competitive with a lower nitro content.

 

[Grimracer]

40 Hydro
25 %
OPS 45
.015 squish
72mph

Wish I could remember more.. that was 20 years ago.

 

[Al Hobbs]

Several years ago, Northern California tried running 10% nitro. The host club supplied the fuel for all entrants. Racing times weren't much slower.

With every boat you run, you have to find the combinations of engine, fuel, pipe, prop and hull that work best for you. With some testing time, you can find the combination that will work for you with lower nitro fuels.

Dictating that everyone must run the same fuel did not last in California. Some boaters wanted different brands of fuel and did not like what the host club provided. The experiment was a good idea, but it did not last.

For me, run what you want. If you want to use lower nitro, take the time to figure out the combinations for your boats. I'll continue running the fuel mixtures I prefer; oil brand, oil content, and nitro content.

 

[Danny King]

One of the things this post has proved is that it is harder than ever to have a DISCUSSION on a topic without personal wants over-taking the discussion. And basically try to CANCEL the discussion. IRONIC to say the least.
It was meant as a discussion, never meant to be meant as a mandate. But more along the lines of an open discussion and awareness of what’s possible. Many are under the false pretense that anyone fast is doing it with high nitro. Not true!!!
Yes higher nitro can be faster. But many things have to work to utilize it.
Just as with lower nitro many things have
To work with it.
As far as set up you really don’t need to do much. The ENGINES ARE NOT SET UP FOR HIGH NITRO FROM THE FACTORY!!!

Novarossi were the closest but still needed help.
Just pick your % and work with it. Same way you do with higher.
Head button
Timing
Pipe and pipe length
Props and props and props
Make the boat as efficient as possible
Engine temp
The same variables that you adjust to run high you will need to adjust to run lower.

A great set up beats high nitro head to head almost everytime.

 

[Jarcaines]

Yeah… it’s disheartening to see Danny present an idea and just ask peoples opinions on something and then have his post turn into a fight. Discourse is important, it’s how things grow and evolve. You don’t have to like the idea to respond with constructive discussion. Just look at Al’s posts as an example. Very informative, quality information, never attacked Danny for the idea, and still would rather run his own fuel.

We can do better here.

 

[James E Beasley]

One of the fastest tunnel hulls I ever owned was an HTB 360 with a stock Rossi River King 7.5 powerhead on 20% nitro. Had an Irwin big belly pipe with an internal stinger. Best I recall I didn't even remove the factory head shim.

 

[Mark Poole ModVP]

I started back in 1988 with stock 7.5 outboards. Ran nothing but 25% fuel for quite a while then switched to 40% and instantly the engines became far more sensitive. Went through more plugs and the difference was punch and maybe 2 mph top end. From what I have always seen at the races, most racers would do far better if they would just get to the finish line. If you are trying to set records then go for that fine line set up. You can bet that whenever I show up at the races again I will be running no more than 30% fuel because I want to have fun instead of trying to get the handle on my engine and hope it will finish the next heat. And remember that nitro is solvent. More you use the faster it wears the engine out.

 

[Joe Warren]

Run GAS lot less nitro content. I want all the nitro i can get the engine to burn..

 

[Austin Schaeffer]

As things in our hobby get more expensive and harder to obtain, let’s have a discussion about limiting nitro content.
First I’d like to say, that one of my favorite aspects of nitro boats has always been the freedom to mod and run as high of fuel as you want. But as the hobby shrinks, I believe it won’t last much longer if we keep it this way.
Back in the early 90’s I ran 33% fuel. I mixed fuel for the owner of a local hobby shop and realized I could get 3 gallons of fuel from a gallon of nitro. And being in my early 20’s I didn’t have a lot to spend. Well it ran great. I had a 67sg and single 90 eagle both in the 92-93 mph range in a heat set up. The difference was less acceleration.
When I came back to boats 8 yrs ago, I had a discussion with Andy and he said I should continue with 33%. Nope. I’m going to use 50%. And I did in the 67 And up and 65% in 21 and 46. But a cpl years ago I dropped back to 42% in the big motors. For a few reasons. And I am faster now then before. Not necessarily from lower nitro. But my point is it can be done.
I can run a pair of plugs in my twin for 2 full race weekends. The smaller engines not as much but if I slowed them down a bit I am sure I could. Even on 65%. But still could be plenty fast on lower nitro.
We could literally keep plugs a lot longer and finish more races.
The time trials can still use whatever nitro content you want.
Hopefully some of the overseas guys and those who have raced overseas can chime in. They have been doing it for years.
There are stand up people in this hobby that are vendors and contributors that do a lot for it much to keep us alive. We need to help them as well. There is efforts by many trying to bring new products out and keep costs down. But we need to collectively work on a solution.
Agree or not it’s a discussion we need to have.

I know in the rc car world most only run 25% to 30% in America, a gallon of fuel costs roughly around $40. Overseas I believe they can only run 16% nitro content in cars. Not sure about the boat stuff but we never went through plugs and the cost of fuel is so much more forgiving on the pocket book

 

[Grimracer]

I raced 20% in all my nitro cars (on road and off road). The real key was not only the nitro but the Oil. Somewhat like RC boating but we don't need to "idle" and "require" the same throttle response the same way nore do we cool the same way. With that we "can" DUMP nitro at it.

I have had some MONSTER runs on 50% and thats where I like my nitro but without the proper oil (23% light Vis). then to me.. it just does not matter.. POUND IN THE NITRO and let her eat..

Cost is cost... Back in the late 80s and early 90s I was paying 23 per gallon for 45%.. (yes.. that was over 30 years ago!)..LOL

To me.. cost is NOT the driving issue to "better boat racing?".. or "More boat racers?" or whatever we are trying to fix here.

That phone in your pocket (our pockets) is.....................

Grim

 

[Grimracer]

Then just to take a step back a few years ago now...

Back in the late 80 early 90s I raced a Delta P2 1/8 scale car.. it was a great car..

We ran 30 min mains.. whats odd and I am WAY PAST THE POINT of trying to chase that..

I TQed every race I went to but NEVER WON A MAIN.. lol.. true.. My pit man (Shaun Neary) was FASSSST TOO.. but to no avail.. LOL

I was a MONSTER for 5 min.. and then PFFFFFFFFTTTTttttttttttttttttttt tttttt ttttttttt t ttttttt I would peter out! LOL

Grim

P.S. drove to South Dakoda one time to a race and on the qualifier I dude turned on his radio.. (yep.. the good old days) same as me.. took a 100 dollar carbon chassis and spit in in half! LOL (one and done!) we tried to fix the car but it was a lost cause.. LOL

 

[Tim Kish]

Lots of factors are dictating where people are spending the entertainment dollars these days.
Young people are overwhelmed with options that didn't exist when we were young and it's really not fair to say their only interested in instant gratification.
The real issue in my opinion is lack of exposure , unfortunately the days of the hobby store exposing kids to cool stuff is long gone and it's up to us to expose as many people as we can to something we love but very few people know even exists.

As for fuel I've been using 50 to 65 for decades now and have no desire to change, rarely have issues and rarely burn plugs. What I do find interesting is people complaining about the price of the hobby yet they have a half dozen boats???

 

[Al Hobbs]

Many years ago, my friend owned an appliance store. He told me about a couple that came in to buy a new clothes washing machine as they one they had broke down.

The husband refused to pay $300 for a new clothes washing machine and they walked towrds the door.

On the way the husband saw a new stereo sound system and they ended up walking out the door with a $3600.00 stereo system.

If it is fun, it can be expensive. If you know what you want, you will pay the price.

We just have to keep model boating fun and that is up to all of us.

 

[bermudadude]

meh.
i think it comes down to setup and driving style,plus ur hull design CHOICE and u will find some people cant use high nitro and others cant use low.
i started out in r/c using nothing more than 25%. total nightmare . inconsistent ,odd problems ,slow ,not pulling prop,,blowing plugs. BUT i was learning and it was new so i was ok. as i became older and less patient i tried everything to fix issues.
really long story short i like 50% in large engines and 60% in 45 and under. i blow less plugs and i can keep an engine running. [more consistent] but thats just me and my preferred "stuff" i spose . took a while but who knows

real point is idk why some [not saying anybody here really] but seems allot of younger folk seem to want more rules and laws these days. im quite tired. not trying to be political but ijs.
this hobby needs less rules not more .
run what u brung,,u get beat -go read a book. nowdays u just google i dont really think this is an issue is what im saying because from what ive been reading over the last few years anybody that wants to save by lowering nitro has done so.
lower nitro isnt necessarily going to loose u the race ,lack of research and testing has already done that

 

[Steve White]

Save money by lowering nitro? With the overall expense of this hobby, that's pretty absurd. Non-recurring cost of building models, having a shop to do so - yeah you can use a converted fishing tackle box and work on the kitchen table. To race requires spare parts - again this could be $100 or $10,000. Then, comes the recurring cost of operating said models, add that in a racing environment. That equates to travel, taking it out on the road which again ranges from a pop-up or tent and ice chest, to hotels and motor homes, travel trailers.

Knocking $25 to $50 off of expenses at a racing weekend is about what I normally would tip wait staff for feeding me over a weekend above the customary 15% gratuity.

Then we have the "Tune it for lower nitro" argument or "tune it for torque". Nitromethane = Horsepower in the form of torque - pure and simple. An optimally tuned setup, which is the very premise of racing is a goal regardless of fuel type used or mix ratio. It's either an optimal setup or it isn't. A setup can be tuned anywhere on the torque curve for any amount of nitro one chooses to run.

In the end, for a race boat it's about the whole combination - along the path we all get lucky with a setup or two and then struggle with setup on another boat. We learn from both experiences - what does work and what doesn't work.

Whining about nitromethane percentage so one can be more competitive when stepping into the drivers box standing beside a guy that's been tuning nitro engines for 40 years and has a full machine shop at home isn't going to help this sport - you'll drive the true pro's out of it as they will be bored and loose interest. Those are the guys to keep around.

A sanctioned nitro class race is a masters class competition and that's the way it's always been. Sport 40 was introduced for an easier entry point as well as outboard and nowadays FE boats. These classes are for newer model boaters.

Next the cars argument. Cars are air cooled, yes I've ran them. They are much more prone to thermal instability which typically starts to manifest about 20% nitromethane. Boats are water cooled, even the FE stuff which lends itself to being able to handle the additional heat dissipation needed for higher nitro fuels. Comparing cars to boats is apples to oranges when it comes to fuel ratios.

I agree with what was said about "more rules" - that's the perfect formula to kill this or any hobby.

 

[derek owen]

cmb evo 45 16% nitro AA45 pipe 21-17 prop. standard turbo head with 14 thou clearance. far from ballistic... but think fast enough to race. here in UK

 

[Bill Eilers]

Lots of pros and cons about keeping the cost of fuel down for those of us that burn nitro. When i started had 12 gal of 35% hello fuel lots of oil. Boats ran good went the distance. (Lots of smoke) BUT should we limit nitro.. No that's why we run fuel

 

[dwilfong]

Good luck getting 5 nitro boats to show and make class running any % on nitro.................................................LMAO

 

[Jeff Lutz]

Good luck getting 5 nitro boats to show and make class running any % on nitro.................................................LMAO

Your in the “dead zone” . (Florida). Travel a little bit and you will have more Nitro competition than you can deal with. My father is from Miami Florida and started boating when Pinckert did, so it’s a sad sight for me to see the state of Nitro boating in Florida as well. January race is your only option right now. It’s a good race all Nitro. Jeff

 

[Mark Grannis]

Your in the “dead zone” . (Florida). Travel a little bit and you will have more Nitro competition than you can deal with. My father is from Miami Florida and started boating when Pinckert did, so it’s a sad sight for me to see the state of Nitro boating in Florida as well. January race is your only option right now. It’s a good race all Nitro. Jeff

Jeff, keep tuned in on the 2023 NITRO racing possibilities in Florida, for it will be coming back even after January's Nitro Winter Championships race is completed. The Tampa Club is undergoing site improvement, and gathering momentum for hosting events.