Engine & Boat Tuning for Methanol

[Jack ODonnell]

Andy, Normally I agree with what you have to say but on this we have to agree to disagree If you think that running with 0% and 5% there is no difference and that running 0% is so easy then better go and get some people to try it because no engine setup will resolve the problems. A correctly set up engine/pipe for 0% nitro of course is necessary but it won't change the fact that 0% nitro would probably kill off a lot of boat racing. As I said, the ONLY people who will do well will be the best engine experts. Thats reality and I speak from experience. I could supply engines set up for 0% nitro tomorrow but I'd also get a big stock of plugs in plus lots of engine spares and exhaust couplers.

Rod, 15% nitro limit is no problem other than policing it, in fact many people would find it easier than very high nitro.

Dave

Dave,

All I can agree on is that you are doing it wrong.

In fact, even the guys that use 80/20 in the speed events are doing it wrong.

The FAI speed plane guys burn those thing to the gound, Blown plugs, detonation, scuffed pistons...

I have run the MAC offroad buggy with 30% then modified it for 0%. It ran nearly the same and the head temp was the same. As you know temp is a big issue in the buggys.

Out of the hole punch was all there, zero to 22 mph in 15 ft. The best we ever got on 30% was 24 mph in 15 ft. and 22 -23mph was the norm.

No plug problems and easy to tune.

Hi Andy; Don`t take this the wrong way. But would you care to explain what the guys using 80\20 are doing wrong. I have been using 80\20 for 21 years and would like to know what i have been doing wrong. J.ODonnell

 

[AndyBrown]

Andy, Normally I agree with what you have to say but on this we have to agree to disagree If you think that running with 0% and 5% there is no difference and that running 0% is so easy then better go and get some people to try it because no engine setup will resolve the problems. A correctly set up engine/pipe for 0% nitro of course is necessary but it won't change the fact that 0% nitro would probably kill off a lot of boat racing. As I said, the ONLY people who will do well will be the best engine experts. Thats reality and I speak from experience. I could supply engines set up for 0% nitro tomorrow but I'd also get a big stock of plugs in plus lots of engine spares and exhaust couplers.

Rod, 15% nitro limit is no problem other than policing it, in fact many people would find it easier than very high nitro.

Dave

Dave,

All I can agree on is that you are doing it wrong.

In fact, even the guys that use 80/20 in the speed events are doing it wrong.

The FAI speed plane guys burn those thing to the gound, Blown plugs, detonation, scuffed pistons...

I have run the MAC offroad buggy with 30% then modified it for 0%. It ran nearly the same and the head temp was the same. As you know temp is a big issue in the buggys.

Out of the hole punch was all there, zero to 22 mph in 15 ft. The best we ever got on 30% was 24 mph in 15 ft. and 22 -23mph was the norm.

No plug problems and easy to tune.

Hi Andy; Don`t take this the wrong way. But would you care to explain what the guys using 80\20 are doing wrong. I have been using 80\20 for 21 years and would like to know what i have been doing wrong. J.ODonnell

Hi Jack, I don't take it wrong.

What you are doing works, but there is a better way. I'd be happy to talk with you about it. Call me sometime.

A friend of mine just got into FAI Speed and hopefully I'll soon get a chance to build some parts for him to test. If it works there I'm sure it will work in your 10cc car as well.

Andy

 

[John Knight]

Guys,

I STARTED this thread in a effort for obtain information for ALL OF US to consider using lower nitro or all methanol because of the current high prices and short availability of nitro. Now it has been turned into a lot of secrets to be shared in the back room and accusations of what people are doing right or not.

Now for the sake of getting back on track to the original topic that was started, either do one of three things:

1. Help others with some details on how the original intent was spelled out with the necessary information to be considered by racers. We are talking about BOATS, BOATS and BOATS, not cars.

2. Start your own thread for the mud slinging and personal opinions.

3. Shut up as you are not helping others that need the help.

Yes I am ticked among the games that people are playing. I am almost 56 years old and trying to help some and others are selfish in their ways and I have every right to be ticked. Now which one are each of you going to do????

 

[Charles Perdue]

Andy, Normally I agree with what you have to say but on this we have to agree to disagree If you think that running with 0% and 5% there is no difference and that running 0% is so easy then better go and get some people to try it because no engine setup will resolve the problems. A correctly set up engine/pipe for 0% nitro of course is necessary but it won't change the fact that 0% nitro would probably kill off a lot of boat racing. As I said, the ONLY people who will do well will be the best engine experts. Thats reality and I speak from experience. I could supply engines set up for 0% nitro tomorrow but I'd also get a big stock of plugs in plus lots of engine spares and exhaust couplers.

Rod, 15% nitro limit is no problem other than policing it, in fact many people would find it easier than very high nitro.

Dave

Dave,

All I can agree on is that you are doing it wrong.

In fact, even the guys that use 80/20 in the speed events are doing it wrong.

The FAI speed plane guys burn those thing to the gound, Blown plugs, detonation, scuffed pistons...

I have run the MAC offroad buggy with 30% then modified it for 0%. It ran nearly the same and the head temp was the same. As you know temp is a big issue in the buggys.

Out of the hole punch was all there, zero to 22 mph in 15 ft. The best we ever got on 30% was 24 mph in 15 ft. and 22 -23mph was the norm.

No plug problems and easy to tune.

Hi Andy; Don`t take this the wrong way. But would you care to explain what the guys using 80\20 are doing wrong. I have been using 80\20 for 21 years and would like to know what i have been doing wrong. J.ODonnell

Hi Jack, I don't take it wrong.

What you are doing works, but there is a better way. I'd be happy to talk with you about it. Call me sometime.

A friend of mine just got into FAI Speed and hopefully I'll soon get a chance to build some parts for him to test. If it works there I'm sure it will work in your 10cc car as well.

Andy

Andy, with information as important as this, myself and the entire modeling community would be grateful if you would continue this topic on open forum rather than in PM's, emails and phone calls.

Information as useful as the ability to have great performance with minimual problems with low and/or no nitro fuels would benefit almost everyone in the nitro end of the hobby.

I am sure that Jack O'Donnell would not have any problem with you helping everyone.

 

[F.Orlic]

Dave,

All I can agree on is that you are doing it wrong.

In fact, even the guys that use 80/20 in the speed events are doing it wrong.

The FAI speed plane guys burn those thing to the gound, Blown plugs, detonation, scuffed pistons...

I have run the MAC offroad buggy with 30% then modified it for 0%. It ran nearly the same and the head temp was the same. As you know temp is a big issue in the buggys.

Out of the hole punch was all there, zero to 22 mph in 15 ft. The best we ever got on 30% was 24 mph in 15 ft. and 22 -23mph was the norm.

No plug problems and easy to tune.

It is real surprise how many people manage to run quite well doing it all wrong.

If you are so sure you are the only one doing it right spill the beans and let us mortals learn unless if it is a secret.

I haven't done a lot of comparison runs low vs high nitro, in fact none with my boats but on my buggy there is no comparison 30% beats 5% hands down no mater how modified or geared.

 

[AndyBrown]

We really must decide if I have any beans to spill!

Dave says forget 0%. Franks says 30% beats 5% hands down.

Hyrdo said his boat ran good on 5%.

Jack' s 10cc car runs 200+ mph on 80/20. 10cc Teathered boats run 100+ mph on 80/20. (80 alky/ 20 oil )

Jerry, says open the head volume. Jon says smaller volume.

Dave says 5% is much better than 0% and that I'm wrong.

Rod says 15% is the way to go.

We must first decide who's right before we blindly follow someone off the cliff. Do we open heads? Make smaller ones?

Timing? pipes? carbs?

Do we go with Dave and pay Hazmat shipping fee for 15% or do we try to make 0% work and buy Alky locally?

Most of you on here do not know Dave's and My relationship and how we like to shake out our differences of opinion.

There is no mud slinging here.

Jack's car engine is far different than our boat engines. The ideas I have for him are specific to his car and how he runs.

Jack and I have talked car engines several times and our personal interaction about his car has no place on this thread.

Now I think we should continue with our thoughts, ideas......and a little mud slinging too!

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Hey Andy lets assume for the sake of argument that I wanted to get the most out of say a .21 MAC on 0% nitro. What would my timing numbers (including blow down), head clearance, squish band to combustion chamber ratio,squish band angle, combustion chamber volume all need to be? It peaks my interest when I see guys like you, Rod, Dave and Jack throwing ideas around. Even if you guys don't want to or can't share all you have learned I appreciate getting to see what you are willing to share. It's much more fun when people ask questions that make people think rahter than just get spoon fed every number.

 

[Jerry Wyss]

I addmit my experience with running very low (or no) nitro has been minimal. I know for sure that most buggy engine's

that I have been converting to O/B use have bubble volumes that are far too large for high nitro use.

I'm running hand made buttons that are between .17 to .18cc,, the buggy engines are usually .19 and up to .22cc.

I haven't been able to get the latter volumes running anywhere near reasonable (with 60%) even with the water totally

pulled off the motor. If I can find a setting where the engine detonates, I know I'm in the ballpark on my volume.

My assumption was, and is that the buggy button volumes were for low nitro. Could also be for a low compression ratio need for "wheels" instead of "boat props",, I'm not totally sure on that factor.

I have put together a TT O/B with a hand made button with an .185cc volume at .010" headspace running on 30%. Even at a rich setting that engine had that "frying egg" sound while it ran on the water momentarily. Could only make it shut-up by making it richer and throwing .004" more headshim at it.

I also have a very old Picco 45 I/B engine,, never had been ran,, on inspection of it's timings and head button I measured

the button volume @ a Whopping .55cc !!! Is That for high nitro? The average Italian 45 I/B is somewhere close to .35cc,,

you think the .55cc is for even HIGHER nitro than 60%?

Please tell me if you know,

JW

 

[AndyBrown]

Eric wrote: "It's much more fun when people ask questions that make people think rahter than just get spoon fed every number."

Jerry wrote: "My assumption was, and is that the buggy button volumes were for low nitro."

Car engines have to deal with cooling issues...the lack of, so maybe the extra volume in buggy/on-road engines has nothing to do with the amount of nitro?!?!

"I have put together a TT O/B with a hand made button with an .185cc volume at .010" headspace running on 30%. Even at a rich setting that engine had that "frying egg" sound while it ran on the water momentarily. Could only make it shut-up by making it richer and throwing .004" more headshim at it."

So what fixed the problem? Lower CR or lower squish velcoity? Or both?? B)

 

[Jerry Wyss]

Well thanks for that Andy! All-be-it a bit late unfortunately,, I've turned my intrests to another hobby venture not anything close to this one. Just have to unload a bunch of this hobby stuff now.

Later,

JW

 

[Geraghty]

Rod[/B] says 15% is the way to go.

Hey Andrew.......This is fun...

Here comes the first disclaimer on this thread.......I don't have a clue if 15% is the best way to go or not. :lol:

In fact,if any of you have personally run anything other than Sheldons [they used to make fuel you know] you have done more with 15% than I ever did. :lol:

All I said was.........15% was what we used in District 8 several years ago when Angus Chemical went up in smoke.

I do remember how we picked 15% at that district meeting when the burning of Angus was discussed.Somebody said all the local hobby shops could get and stocked 15% for planes and after 30 seconds of discussion .... slam,bam thank you maam the 15% was our fuel of choice.

I also remember this is what I did to run that well thought out choice of 15%...........

Now "shush don't tell anyone" but this was my "secret set-up".............I put on my white gloves and ......"very carefully" re-filled the fuel tank with 15%,re-set the needle and ran the SOB and......it ran great.

What did surprize me was the fuel economy was phenomenal.

Now all my carefully thought out "scientific" experience with 15% was tested in "stock" NAMBA OPC 3.5-7.5 & 11CC K&B outboards.I don't remember if I ever ran 15% in a piped motor or not.

Dam,ain't it great what a well thought out plan comes together.

Now,I don't nor do I intend to have a dog in this fight.....I am just enjoying the he said,she said,we said exchanges in this thread.......go get em' boys.

My second thought was only a suggestion on how to possibly police the nitro content of the fuel used at the races......just have everybody fill er' up out of the same barrel.It sure wouldn't behove anybody to test with anything other than the fuel that was going to be supplied.

 

[dwb2620]

AND still no useful info in this thread! Just a lot of B***S***! For what it's worth, back when the Angus Plant burned down, I tried 20% nitro in my K&B 3.5 O/B hydro. It wouldn't keep lit, even with a hotter plug, needle changes, prop changes, and pipe length changes. I still had some 50% nitro and put that back in it and it fired off and ran just fine.

A lot of you guys don't know me but I have been in this hobby since 1985. Before that I raced Kneel down hydros for several years. So, don't tell me there is nothing that we need to do to our engines. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

 

[piper_chuck]

In the early 80s I ran my tunnel with the same fuel I used for planes. I can't remember the exact percentage, but it was most likely 10 or 15%. Even though people at the time kept telling me I should use high nitro fuel, it ran fine. I remember being in Atlanta on a business trip one time and running with someone at their pond, wish I could remember who it was, and being surprised that my stock outboard on low nitro fuel actually ran pretty well against a piped outboard.

I think going to low, or no, nitro fuel for heat racing is worth serious consideration. Reducing the cost of fuel, and eliminating the availability issues associated with high nitro should far outweigh a slight speed loss.

 

[hydro]

AND still no useful info in this thread! Just a lot of B***S***! For what it's worth, back when the Angus Plant burned down, I tried 20% nitro in my K&B 3.5 O/B hydro. It wouldn't keep lit, even with a hotter plug, needle changes, prop changes, and pipe length changes. I still had some 50% nitro and put that back in it and it fired off and ran just fine.A lot of you guys don't know me but I have been in this hobby since 1985. Before that I raced Kneel down hydros for several years. So, don't tell me there is nothing that we need to do to our engines. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

David

Here some info on what I did to run low 5 to 15 % nitro. Bear in mind I "did not have to do anything" other than adjust the needle for the correct fuel /air ratio. My boats run fine as is without modification, but to optimize for max performance I did the following. When I race I normally run 35 to 50 % nitro.

Boat One: Scratch built rigger power by 45 Picco EXR Disc rotor, MAC 10cc airplane pipe , 1457 or 1460 custom prop.

Remove head shim, Took a little cup out of prop, Lean the mixture out, Increased the angle of attack on front sponson to loosen the boat up somewhat.

Boat Two: Scratch built rigger power by 67 Picco EXR with OS max Drum Rotor and carb. 11cc Mac or OPS pipe, 1467 or 1667 Custom Prop

Remove head shim, Took a little cup out of prop, Lean the mixture out, Increased the angle of attack on front sponson to loosen the boat up somewhat.

Boat Three: Aero Tech Tunnel , K&B 45 with J tuned pipe, custom X447 prop

Removed head shim, Leaned mixture out

I don't claim to to be an expert in anything, but my results work great and my boats are super reliable, easy to launch and mill with any fuel. The needles are broad as a barn door in any weather condition and the glow plugs last a long time. The boats have above average speed with any % fuel and I win races all the time. That is when I used to race !!

 

[Don Ferrette]

Why is everyone freaking out on this anyway? The only nitro shortage is in the drag racing circles and if you take the time & use the internet you'll see it's basically nothing more than a big power struggle within drag racing. Once again here is the press release from Angus, please pay attention to the section highlighted with bold print-

"ANGUS will continue to be supportive on nitromethane sales into other key markets where the molecule is sold and used in de-sensitized levels. Nitromethane is used as a chemical intermediate in the manufacture of agricultural fumigants and pharmaceutical products. Hobby racing fuel for remote-controlled vehicles is also a key market; ANGUS fully supports the hobby racing fuels market for remote-controlled vehicles where formulations are sold at de-sensitized levels of 55 percent or less nitromethane."

Personally I simply have no desire to run low nitro as long as I can get what I need. With the increased costs of raw material I've gone back to running pre-mixed fuel from RedMax like I used to run. I've called RedMax & the only changes they've made is for now they are not making over 55% which tells me they buy from Angus. They would not say who they buy from but the answer is already there. They did not foresee any issues supplying customers with fuel percentages under 55% & went as far as to say that smaller orders of high nitro mixes might not be an issue in the near future after they worked out the details with their "supplier". You guys keep hashing out running on low or no nitro, I'll just have to tune the 21's & 45's to run on 55% instead of 70%.

 

[hydro]

Why is everyone freaking out on this anyway? The only nitro shortage is in the drag racing circles and if you take the time & use the internet you'll see it's basically nothing more than a big power struggle within drag racing. Once again here is the press release from Angus, please pay attention to the section highlighted with bold print-
"ANGUS will continue to be supportive on nitromethane sales into other key markets where the molecule is sold and used in de-sensitized levels. Nitromethane is used as a chemical intermediate in the manufacture of agricultural fumigants and pharmaceutical products. Hobby racing fuel for remote-controlled vehicles is also a key market; ANGUS fully supports the hobby racing fuels market for remote-controlled vehicles where formulations are sold at de-sensitized levels of 55 percent or less nitromethane."

Personally I simply have no desire to run low nitro as long as I can get what I need. With the increased costs of raw material I've gone back to running pre-mixed fuel from RedMax like I used to run. I've called RedMax & the only changes they've made is for now they are not making over 55% which tells me they buy from Angus. They would not say who they buy from but the answer is already there. They did not foresee any issues supplying customers with fuel percentages under 55% & went as far as to say that smaller orders of high nitro mixes might not be an issue in the near future after they worked out the details with their "supplier". You guys keep hashing out running on low or no nitro, I'll just have to tune the 21's & 45's to run on 55% instead of 70%.

I don't think anyone is freaking out on not being able to get nitro. For me, it was the challenge of having a fast boat running on fuel that everyone else does NOT run. I used to race at a local pond in south Florida years ago. My friends all had riggers made by popular commercial builders power with the normal , CMB, OS Max VRM and OPS running the usual 50 percent fuel. Here comes John with his 45 EXR Picco power rigger beating up on them. Not that my boat was way way faster than theirs. It wasn't. But it was noticeable faster. The fun part about it was I did not tell them I was only running 5 % nitro fuel. I just did not have the heart to do it.

John

 

[Don Ferrette]

I don't think anyone is freaking out on not being able to get nitro. For me, it was the challenge of having a fast boat running on fuel that everyone else does NOT run. I used to race at a local pond in south Florida years ago. My friends all had riggers made by popular commercial builders power with the normal , CMB, OS Max VRM and OPS running the usual 50 percent fuel. Here comes John with his 45 EXR Picco power rigger beating up on them. Not that my boat was way way faster than theirs. It wasn't. But it was noticeable faster. The fun part about it was I did not tell them I was only running 5 % nitro fuel. I just did not have the heart to do it.
John

John smart money says it wasn't the fuel but rather the combination of a better motor (Picco EXR vs. old school OS, OPS & CMB) & a properly set up boat.

 

[hydro]

I don't think anyone is freaking out on not being able to get nitro. For me, it was the challenge of having a fast boat running on fuel that everyone else does NOT run. I used to race at a local pond in south Florida years ago. My friends all had riggers made by popular commercial builders power with the normal , CMB, OS Max VRM and OPS running the usual 50 percent fuel. Here comes John with his 45 EXR Picco power rigger beating up on them. Not that my boat was way way faster than theirs. It wasn't. But it was noticeable faster. The fun part about it was I did not tell them I was only running 5 % nitro fuel. I just did not have the heart to do it.
John

John smart money says it wasn't the fuel but rather the combination of a better motor (Picco EXR vs. old school OS, OPS & CMB) & a properly set up boat.

Yep ....Your right it was the better engine and a way better setup boat. But on the other side of the coin when I ran my normal 40% nitro the boat was faster but not all that much. No enough to make much of a difference in a racing situation. I think the big issue with nitro in the future is going to be the price of the stuff. That will be the only reason why everyone will go to the lower percentages. Time will tell.

 

[Terry Keeley]

I've called RedMax & the only changes they've made is for now they are not making over 55% which tells me they buy from Angus. They would not say who they buy from but the answer is already there. They did not foresee any issues supplying customers with fuel percentages under 55% & went as far as to say that smaller orders of high nitro mixes might not be an issue in the near future after they worked out the details with their "supplier". You guys keep hashing out running on low or no nitro, I'll just have to tune the 21's & 45's to run on 55% instead of 70%.

FHS is listed as an Angus "Authorized Formulator":

http://www.dow.com/angus/nitroboost/hobbyfuel/index.htm

And I thought they wouldn't sell pure nitro because they didn't want to deal with haz. shipping... :lol:

 

[HTV Boats]

As Don stated the shortage seems to be a power struggle elsewhere and like most things we will see the ripple down effect and wind up paying more for fuel in the future. Bottom line you got money you got nitro. I guess I statred in the 80's racing with 15% and over the years just upped the ante' to give no edge to the competition. The main tunning issue is leaner needles with low nitro. Less parts and glow plugs burned in my estimation. Needles seem to be much broader with lower nitro. You'll finish a lot more heats.

I would welcome house fuel at 5-15% and maybe LHShops could be enticed to donate or give fuel at cost which would bring racers in for sales since you would want to test what your going to race with. You fill up in the pits and sure guys are going to creatively cheat but they only cheat themselves. In APBA they check 1st-3rd at Nationals and if your caught your card gets pulled and you can be out of competition for a year. For local races no big deal but at a national event fuel should then be monitored. Why wouldn't someone such as Red Max or Morgans want to be the official fuel at the Internats or any National race?