Do FE Limited classes result in more carnage?

[SeanKewley]

A point was brought up in another thread on another site about the limited classes. Do classes such as these (those requiring equipment parity) create an environment that leads to more boat on boat contact and carnage?

A secondary point was also made, that unless you command lane #1 at the start you have little chance of winning unless the driver in lane one makes a fatal mistake at some point.

Just curious what others think.

 

[P THOMAS]

Maybe those guys that have fast boats can drive too.

 

[Chilli]

I've seen zero evidence of this racing in D12 and D13. As a matter of fact, I've probably seen less carnage in the Limited Classes than any other class.

If you can command lane 1 at the start, drive error free, and your boat is set up reasonably well, there is a hell of good chance you are going to win the heat no matter what class you are in.

 

[Grimracer]

No.. its just FE overall. I dont mean that in a bad way eather. With an FE power system you can force a boat into lanes and situations you cannot with a nitro boat. Some of the worce and best driving I have ever seen was at a FE nats.

If you have a driver thats.. well.. not so good racing FE.. they just never seem to get much better. Banzi heats.. they have no need to learn the same tactics as a Nitro boat.

This is just been MY observation..

Grim

 

[Grimracer]

Then I should go on to say...

I had "HAD" a very good running 40 tunnel but it was slower then most. It was raced about 5 times and hit 6 (yep.. hit twice in one heat). I have had more bad luck with boats that "dont match" in speed. But.. truth is I have only seen just a very few "heats" that the boats match in speed regardless of the power system.

Grim

 

[HTV Boats]

I made these as opinions in another thread. As for lane one Mike is correct in the ability of an FE to manuever at low speeds and then accelerate may entice you to force your way in and make a lane happen. This is not a problem yet in FE. From my experience running in large gas heats where it is in my opinion prevalent, I see it very easy for FE to evolve that way. Face it with similar boats and speeds how long are you going to let someone just have lane one and take second to him time after time. At some point your going to fight for the position. You and 6 other people in an 8 boat heat. In nitro where you need to keep your engine warm and they have a propencity to not come back on pipe the starts are a little harder. Gas on the other hand has powerplants that idle down and accelerate instantly. You can change the rule as to where and at what point you own the lane but there is still the fight to that point. Run a few 8 boat gas heats and you'll have a different perspective. Again not happening yet but I see FE parity potentialy with more plug and play racers a potential problem. It is not just speed but the ability to slow down and accelerate instantly. More a issue with a mono or tunnel than hydro's.

As for carnage it comes more in 6-8 boat heats. Boats will spread out after the first turn and even matched equipment will secumb to better driving practices. Not trying to bash gas again but the plug and play aspect has given some very inexperience operators the ability to get in over their heads. There are some people you drive next to over the years within two feet of each other for 6 laps and never worry about hitting. Others you try to leave room and they wind up avoiding you in the same position,bang. Looking at the potential for FE races to grow and fill out to larger heats I hate to see a majority of "spec" classes that to me will wind up similar to whats going on in gas racing.

Changing gears here at our outboard race we tried a beach start similar to what Champ and F-1 boats do. Only one class Mod-Vp so far. Every one thought there would be a pile up at the turn bouy and the opposite came true. We ran accross the course to a single bouy outside on the backstretch. You either hit it close and tight or entered wide and pulled a crossover on exit. Not one pileup in 4 races and counting. Most FE boats could do a beach start easier than nitro. We drew cards each heat for random starting positions 1-8. The pit person held and launched the boat from that position. The clock counts down as normal and the CD has an airhorn he sounds between 5 and 1 seconds keeping it even and no jumped starts. No milling just toss in and the race is on. Not every site will work but if you have room try it once.

Mic

 

[lohring]

Electric boats can be raced differently from nitro boats, but there are many more new boaters running electrics. That means less experienced racers. It's a good thing because it means the sport is growing. Just be patient and help the new racers along. It's only a model boat and it can be fixed or replaced.

Lohring Miller

 

[Grimracer]

Buzzer sound.....Ahaaaaaaaaaaaa..........

Do i see more NEW racers in FE.. not really. However when I do see a new Nitro boater they are "guided" what to do and what results are eminent (taught) if they don’t!

It dont take long to hold your lane and race with your head when a engine out and a whacking are a coming if you dont..

Grim

 

[RaceMechaniX]

I would argue that P-Spec classes very greatly from region to region and heat to heat depending on the drivers and equipment. The same can be said for Gas Thunderboat. I have seen more outrageous lane 1 takeovers in TB than anyother class. For any class with regulated power systems, lane 1 will always be fought over the most.

Tyler

 

[Andy Greene]

Changing gears here at our outboard race we tried a beach start similar to what Champ and F-1 boats do. Only one class Mod-Vp so far. Every one thought there would be a pile up at the turn bouy and the opposite came true. We ran accross the course to a single bouy outside on the backstretch. You either hit it close and tight or entered wide and pulled a crossover on exit. Not one pileup in 4 races and counting. Most FE boats could do a beach start easier than nitro. We drew cards each heat for random starting positions 1-8. The pit person held and launched the boat from that position. The clock counts down as normal and the CD has an airhorn he sounds between 5 and 1 seconds keeping it even and no jumped starts. No milling just toss in and the race is on. Not every site will work but if you have room try it once.

Mic

I'm really hoping that the F/E classes at the upcoming race will be up for it Mic- It changes NOTHING really in how they do it now other than it seriously challenges an F/E driver to practice throttle control on the start. I must admit, I was shocked that we did 4 Lemans starts and had zero incidents, granted with the exception of myself, most of you guys had a ton of tunnel experience

The upside the F/E guys have over ModVp is noise - its very loud with 8 boats ready to go on the beach at once.I will have some HP this time, so I promise not to have Premo toss me early

Sorry for the Hi-Jack-

Back to your regularly scheduled program.............

Andy

 

[Grimracer]

I made these as opinions in another thread. As for lane one Mike is correct in the ability of an FE to manuever at low speeds and then accelerate may entice you to force your way in and make a lane happen. This is not a problem yet in FE. From my experience running in large gas heats where it is in my opinion prevalent, I see it very easy for FE to evolve that way. Face it with similar boats and speeds how long are you going to let someone just have lane one and take second to him time after time. At some point your going to fight for the position. You and 6 other people in an 8 boat heat. In nitro where you need to keep your engine warm and they have a propencity to not come back on pipe the starts are a little harder. Gas on the other hand has powerplants that idle down and accelerate instantly. You can change the rule as to where and at what point you own the lane but there is still the fight to that point. Run a few 8 boat gas heats and you'll have a different perspective. Again not happening yet but I see FE parity potentialy with more plug and play racers a potential problem. It is not just speed but the ability to slow down and accelerate instantly. More a issue with a mono or tunnel than hydro's.

As for carnage it comes more in 6-8 boat heats. Boats will spread out after the first turn and even matched equipment will secumb to better driving practices. Not trying to bash gas again but the plug and play aspect has given some very inexperience operators the ability to get in over their heads. There are some people you drive next to over the years within two feet of each other for 6 laps and never worry about hitting. Others you try to leave room and they wind up avoiding you in the same position,bang. Looking at the potential for FE races to grow and fill out to larger heats I hate to see a majority of "spec" classes that to me will wind up similar to whats going on in gas racing.

Changing gears here at our outboard race we tried a beach start similar to what Champ and F-1 boats do. Only one class Mod-Vp so far. Every one thought there would be a pile up at the turn bouy and the opposite came true. We ran accross the course to a single bouy outside on the backstretch. You either hit it close and tight or entered wide and pulled a crossover on exit. Not one pileup in 4 races and counting. Most FE boats could do a beach start easier than nitro. We drew cards each heat for random starting positions 1-8. The pit person held and launched the boat from that position. The clock counts down as normal and the CD has an airhorn he sounds between 5 and 1 seconds keeping it even and no jumped starts. No milling just toss in and the race is on. Not every site will work but if you have room try it once.

Mic

I was not going to go into the gas racing deal.......lol

 

[HTV Boats]

Sounds like we have to recognize the elephant in the room. I like gas boats and the guys running them are no different in general than nitro or FE. What is different is how you progess in the learning process. In nitro you start out and do more retrieving than running much less actually racing and finishing heats. If your smart you recognize you need help just to make the damn things run and find a mentor or a group of experienced people who will guide you along. Kind of an apprenticeship program and you learn respect for equipment plus the an understanding of racing. Plug and play and you get to bypass a lot of steps and lessons learned from others who did it the hard way. Its the way of the world and the future. Doesn't make anyone better than anyone else or any type of power superior. Remember also it is called racing, and no one starts a heat and trys to get second or third. We all want to win and that may not be the best basis for comradarie. Before and at the end of the day this racing is a great hobby and everyone is pretty unselfish. Just not for 2 1/2 minutes and the laps that follow. So gas is not bad I just see it would be very easy for FE to go down that road. The numbers will come and I can remember when guys brought weed eaters to the pond and we humored them. Now they are bigger than nitro and let us race with them. Fortunately them is us.

Grim see what you did getting me into FE,

Mic

 

[Andy Greene]

What is different is how you progess in the learning process. In nitro you start out and do more retrieving than running much less actually racing and finishing heats. If your smart you recognize you need help just to make the damn things run and find a mentor or a group of experienced people who will guide you along. Kind of an apprenticeship program and you learn respect for equipment plus the an understanding of racing. Plug and play and you get to bypass a lot of steps and lessons learned from others who did it the hard way.

Mic

Very well said Mic - Its not that nitro makes anyone better than a gas or F/E boater, but it certainly makes you learn more just to get you up and running consistently.

Imho , it teaches you respect for those that helped you along the way and those that you race or run with -usually one in the same.

It becomes an instilled value that you dont get from from the plug and play world.

 

[DPeterson]

Sean

The problem is you. Stay out of lane one and you and I will not have carnage.

How about a 90 second clock - no launch after 45 seconds - all boats must make one mill lap prior to being on the start lap. Spreads the boats out a little - drivers get a chance to feel the boat - nitro guys can relate to milling - milling is fun.

Sean - I'll try to call you tomorrow night.

Doug

 

[osracer]

I am new to FE racing and run the limited classes. I think their is way more carnage in FE than in nitro ( all I have to do is look at my boats ). I think part of it is lack of respect to the fellow competitors, part of it is a flip or crash still gives you a 50% chance of landing upright and still completing the race, I also think the CD's and corner judges do not pay enough attention to what is happening when the FE's are running. At the last race my sport hydro was taken out at the start and run into on the back straight. My tunnel was run over (dead boat that flipped in front of someone) and nothing was called. Their were also several other incidents of boat contact and I don't believe their was one DQ called.

I think if we want to continue to grow FE we have to:

A. Get the CD's to get serious and call FE the same as they call nitro

B. We need some type of penalty for flipping a boat. Maybe if it lands right side up you need to drive it to the infield and park it. This would maybe calm down some of the banzi moves.

C. We need to respect everyones equipment and lanes. You never know when you might take out someone who doesn't have enough money to fix his boat and ends up leaving the hobby.

Just my two cents.

Bill Wachtler

 

[osracer]

Doug

I agree on the mill time. It would fix some off the problems

Bill

 

[SeanKewley]

We've been tossing around the idea of running a longer mill for the FEs, and thanks to Grim we have a one minute audio clock now. I'm all for giving it a try at the next race. The beach start sounds like a cool idea too for the outboard class.

 

[HTV Boats]

If you extend mill time it is only a short matter of time untill everyone figures out the last 15-10 seconds are where the race really starts. With the ability of an FE to throttle down and not even come off plane your not going to change much with a longer mill.

Actually a beach start would be a real test of drivers skills. We have done it with tunnels and monos in mod-vp.The mono gets the jump in my experience. With the FE you would have to really control your throttle on a tunnel. A mono would be easiest as even with that 1st lap peak you could launch hard. Certain props act like clutches and that would become a factor. Do you want the quick position at the start or top end in the heat? Your pit person and his launching you level comes into play. It also eliminates the clock judgement, he was over-no I wasn't blah blah blah.

Back to the original question of carnage. It isn't there yet. The spec classes are working for easy growth. What I hate to see is all spec all the time. Part of FE growth should not just be limited classes. Open things up for more experience builders and have a place for spec beginers to move up the ranks. If a large percentage of your base is newer racers it will affect the future of things. (Mike I am not going to say the G word here) There is some great power in P and Q boats with speeds that will test everyones skills. Pick a couple good spec class hulls that build easy and then herd people to a few more advanced classes. If you have too many choices everything gets watered down. If for example I knew that spec tunnel and P-mono plus Q sport hydro were accepted class by most clubs I would build those 3 first and then add to the fleet. Get together as a majority and do whats best for the end result. With 3 or 4 main classes you would have a few large heats at stand alone FE races and the oportunity to add numbers to races that want boats no matter what powers them. When you approach an established race and can offer a 5-8 boat class they will put you on the roster.

Mic

Mic

 

[Grimracer]

If you extend mill time it is only a short matter of time untill everyone figures out the last 15-10 seconds are where the race really starts. With the ability of an FE to throttle down and not even come off plane your not going to change much with a longer mill.

Mic is partly right on this. In FE this might be true but in Nitro racing it happens the moment you are called "on the clock".



With an FE boat, other than falling off plane, one does not have to worry about the motor quitting if you get it to slow OR it coming back on pipe.



I do however feel that a longer mill WILL allow more crossover from the nitro world to the FE world. I hate short mills.



The first time I raced an FE RC boat was back in the Nimph days and ran Charlie’s T? LSH at the MAZO pond. I asked my pit man to toss me in at buoy 1 as I wanted a full mill lap.. the others launched and parked on the back straight away. When they saw me a coming it was all WTF... lol.. Boats were zigging and zagging all over the place trying to get a start. I was threading the needle and one of the racers punched it.. His boat came over and I wacked it... I sent poor old Drobys Kermit the frog round nose and sent it to Davys Jones Locker...lol



O yea…..



Grim

 

[julianconde]

Then I should go on to say...

I had "HAD" a very good running 40 tunnel but it was slower then most. It was raced about 5 times and hit 6 (yep.. hit twice in one heat). I have had more bad luck with boats that "dont match" in speed. But.. truth is I have only seen just a very few "heats" that the boats match in speed regardless of the power system.

Grim

Grim i remember that heat it was in SC if im correct i even know the name of the person that hit you Twice LOL