Do FE Limited classes result in more carnage?

[julianconde]

Sounds like we have to recognize the elephant in the room. I like gas boats and the guys running them are no different in general than nitro or FE. What is different is how you progess in the learning process. In nitro you start out and do more retrieving than running much less actually racing and finishing heats. If your smart you recognize you need help just to make the damn things run and find a mentor or a group of experienced people who will guide you along. Kind of an apprenticeship program and you learn respect for equipment plus the an understanding of racing. Plug and play and you get to bypass a lot of steps and lessons learned from others who did it the hard way. Its the way of the world and the future. Doesn't make anyone better than anyone else or any type of power superior. Remember also it is called racing, and no one starts a heat and trys to get second or third. We all want to win and that may not be the best basis for comradarie. Before and at the end of the day this racing is a great hobby and everyone is pretty unselfish. Just not for 2 1/2 minutes and the laps that follow. So gas is not bad I just see it would be very easy for FE to go down that road. The numbers will come and I can remember when guys brought weed eaters to the pond and we humored them. Now they are bigger than nitro and let us race with them. Fortunately them is us.

Grim see what you did getting me into FE,

Mic

Sounds like you are talking bout me MIC LOL. just joking.. well said i have 2 mentors that taught me everything i know in tunnel and Twin Hydros.

i did not do so great with tunnels and i had all the help i could get When i switched to Twin hydro's everything changed. now there is a big difference in speed i only race Tunnels and B MONO for a year before i made the move to Twins full time. Respect and Courtesy if you know you cant drive well practice,practice,practice.

But as far as FE i have seen horrible driving in FE and Nitro. now a boater that has no experience can buy all the FE equipment and haul the mail with no experience and mentorship and in nitro like mic said you will be doing alot of retrieve boat duty.

 

[Grimracer]

Then I should go on to say...

I had "HAD" a very good running 40 tunnel but it was slower then most. It was raced about 5 times and hit 6 (yep.. hit twice in one heat). I have had more bad luck with boats that "dont match" in speed. But.. truth is I have only seen just a very few "heats" that the boats match in speed regardless of the power system.

Grim

Grim i remember that heat it was in SC if im correct i even know the name of the person that hit you Twice LOL

LOL.. your right!...lol.. The boat went on to a short and lackluster career! lol

 

[Chilli]

But as far as FE i have seen horrible driving in FE and Nitro. now a boater that has no experience can buy all the FE equipment and haul the mail with no experience and mentorship and in nitro like mic said you will be doing alot of retrieve boat duty.

I'm sure the same was said about gas boats ten years ago. We don't have carnage in the FE classes in D12 because we have great mentors in the district. And speaking about carnage, how about Winter Nats this past January. Don't think there were too many FE's running there.

 

[julianconde]

But as far as FE i have seen horrible driving in FE and Nitro. now a boater that has no experience can buy all the FE equipment and haul the mail with no experience and mentorship and in nitro like mic said you will be doing alot of retrieve boat duty.

I'm sure the same was said about gas boats ten years ago. We don't have carnage in the FE classes in D12 because we have great mentors in the district. And speaking about carnage, how about Winter Nats this past January. Don't think there were too many FE's running there.

Mike D12 has some great boaters and mentors Remember i was in D12 when i started boating and had the best time ever when i raced in the district races. but like i always say your going to have good drivers,bad drivers,fast boats,slow boats,good calls, bad calls,experienced racers and rookie racers in any class even in Twin Hydro too ;-) ..

 

[julianconde]

Then I should go on to say...

I had "HAD" a very good running 40 tunnel but it was slower then most. It was raced about 5 times and hit 6 (yep.. hit twice in one heat). I have had more bad luck with boats that "dont match" in speed. But.. truth is I have only seen just a very few "heats" that the boats match in speed regardless of the power system.

Grim

Grim i remember that heat it was in SC if im correct i even know the name of the person that hit you Twice LOL

LOL.. your right!...lol.. The boat went on to a short and lackluster career! lol

if i remember correctly it was a Aerotech blue sparkle K&B powered redhead that did all the damage to your boat LOL.. hint hint ;-)

 

[Grimracer]

lol.. that really was one of the nicest running hull I have drove to date!

Grim

 

[julianconde]

lol.. that really was one of the nicest running hull I have drove to date!

Grim

he was my mentor in tunnels.. h34r: your 40 tunnel was vey fast and i like very much

 

[SeanKewley]

Getting back to the beach launch for the outboards... Anyone have some pics of what the line up looks like? If the drivers draw before each heat race for starting position, which position is considered the best to launch from (Inside I assume). Just trying to understand better how it might work and look.

Do you wait for the start buzzer and then go? If someone takes off before the buzzer, do they get a lap penalty? Does everyone take off for bouy 1 or a different bouy? We have a fun run coming up this Sunday and I would like to discuss doing something like this with the other guys for our last race.

 

[Chilli]

I understand Julian but I just want to state the FE carnage thing is not an accross the board problem. At the same time I'm wondering why this is more of a problem in some areas. There could be lots of factors. In hind site maybe running the combined Nitro and FE classes in D12 had the added benefit of integrating the new FE's into driving style of the nitro racers. We race with each other, we talk after each heat and throughout the race weekend. We get our ass chewed if we do something stupid. I was also very conservative the first two years making sure the FE guys didnt piss off the nitro racers. If I had a boat that was out of control or we cut off a nitro racer and caused him to go dead, I would immediately DQ myself and pull off the course. If I was pitting for another FE racer, I would have him do the same. I didnt wait for the CD. We also do the standard mill and it has not been a problem except for sometimes getting crowded at the launch area when the FE guys all want to go in at 45 seconds.

Grim mentioned carnage at an FE Nats event. It's my theory that something seems to happen in the brains of racers when you put "Nats" in front of a race title. People lose site why we do this in hopes of being crowned national champion. They will win at all costs, then they fight on Jim's because the Winter Nats champions says to the Fall Nats Champion "How can you be the national champion when I'm the national champion". :lol: All right, I'm done rambling.

 

[lohring]

I'm sure the same was said about gas boats ten years ago.

In my area, the Pacific Northwest, nitro, gas, and electric have been raced a long time. However, even today, the hardcore, old time racers mostly run nitro. Gas became popular with newer racers in the late 1990s just as electric is doing now. As was pointed out, gas and electric are easier for first time racers. These days both groups mostly run "spec" power plants, making it even easier for beginners. The growth of gas scale and 1/10 scale electrics is reducing nitro scale racing to some degree. The newest members of my club run all types of boats, but electrics are becoming more attractive to everyone just like gas did in the past. Excellent ready to run electrics have helped. The amount of time spent retrieving in electric classes is lower, with everyone finishing a lot of the time.

It's good for everyone, especially new racers. There's no better way to learn than by finishing heats. Time spent playing with fussy engines is time not spent racing.

Lohring Miller

 

[julianconde]

the Winter Nats champions says to the Fall Nats Champion "How can you be the national champion when I'm the national champion". :lol:

OHH WOW lets not go there LOL we would have some serious problems.

I have to agree with you some people would do just about anything for a win CD says nothing and looks the other way and i have seen that. Thats why i wont race at those sites. CD's enforce the standards if there carnage the CD has the right to bench the poeple involve if they cannot control their model or just being wreckless but some CD's have favortism to certain people and look the other way.. Not going to put any clubs or names out there.

One Race site i love is the Evansville Club those guys dont play and they enforce every rule and they are fair. i would race there anytime i cant say that in other places i have raced in the past..

Julian

 

[HTV Boats]

Getting back to the beach launch for the outboards... Anyone have some pics of what the line up looks like? If the drivers draw before each heat race for starting position, which position is considered the best to launch from (Inside I assume). Just trying to understand better how it might work and look.

Do you wait for the start buzzer and then go? If someone takes off before the buzzer, do they get a lap penalty? Does everyone take off for bouy 1 or a different bouy? We have a fun run coming up this Sunday and I would like to discuss doing something like this with the other guys for our last race.

Sean,

There may be some video of our beach starts out there and maybe Drew will chime in here again. As for proceedure we use the normal count down clock and to prevent anticipation and jump starts the CD just sounds a cheap airhorn in the countdown between 5 seconds and the normal start at zero. The pit man holding the boat needs to pay attention to the straight lane in front of him so he will have his back to the drivers stand and the airhorn can be heard over 8 running nitro boats. So with FE there should be an even start at the horn. Could be simplified to ready set and honk!

We divided the beachfront into 8 - 4ft starting boxes in front of the drivers stand with simple painted lines. from left to right #1-8. Using cards numbered 1-8 you draw a random position before the 2 1/2 minute start clock. (5min FE). From there if you use a bouy placed outside the backstrech you all go straight out turn right then around the normal turn 2 down the front straight and cross the start finish line. We credit that as one lap since we added distance with a tri-oval. Much like the full size counterparts there is no rule which way you start. You can all angle left or right and head for turn one or two depending on the property and what works best logistically. This is where the random draw wll have an edge. Lane one is closer to turn one and 8 closer to turn two if you start at an angle. We like the straight start to the tri-oval bouy or you could drop a mid course bouy on the backstretch for the quick right turn. The longer the drag race run to whatever turn is used is better to spread the field out. Even a bouy outside on the backstrech for the start and then the normal oval from there. Makes a race interesting and you have some strategy in starting rather than the cookie cutter take lane one and go. Try it at a fun run as you don't need a clock. Hope this explains it a little better.

Mic

We joked about a good pitman could throw a boat a long way. I think my son Jay could throw a Buick half way across the course. Reality is a smooth toss low to the water or gentle forward drop gives you the best contol and ability to throttle up quicker.

 

[Andy Greene]

Getting back to the beach launch for the outboards... Anyone have some pics of what the line up looks like? If the drivers draw before each heat race for starting position, which position is considered the best to launch from (Inside I assume). Just trying to understand better how it might work and look.

Do you wait for the start buzzer and then go? If someone takes off before the buzzer, do they get a lap penalty? Does everyone take off for bouy 1 or a different bouy? We have a fun run coming up this Sunday and I would like to discuss doing something like this with the other guys for our last race.

We joked about a good pitman could throw a boat a long way. I think my son Jay could throw a Buick half way across the course. Reality is a smooth toss low to the water or gentle forward drop gives you the best contol and ability to throttle up quicker.

Sounds as though someone has been practicing his starts

As much as I hate to admit it, I dont think anyone took any pics of the ModVp heats using the LeMans starts . Truth of the matter is, either everyone was racing/ pitting or turn judging- the rest just wanted to see the wrecks that never came :lol:

Sean, unless you guys are going to modify your course (i/e tri oval) I would just do as Mic suggested and place a single buoy on the back straight past the racing lanes and use that. We normally move the existing left hand buoy used for offshore slightly to the right. Unless you got a really good turning boat lane 8 wasn't always the place too be Also as suggested, the further away that buoy is the better, spreads the field some.

You do bring up a good boat about launching before the buzzer and we will need to firm that up between the racers in the class prior to the race.With the exception of the last heat, we did not have any issue with guys going before the horn- everyone knew Randy was gonna toss me early that heat

Andy

 

[SeanKewley]

Thanks Mic and Andy!

 

[Doug Smock]

I just want to state the FE carnage thing is not an accross the board problem.

Certainly not a problem for us in the SE. But then again, we're approx 10mph slower that the rest of the world. :lol: :lol:

I've had one boat hit (LSG Mono) so far this year and that was at the hands of a gentleman with multiple US1s.

IT happens.

D.

 

[T.S.Davis]

One full lap is plenty for the mill. The number of mill laps wont make a difference when the boats can be on plane at about 6 mph and accelerate to 50+ in under 2 seconds. A longer mill wont change a thing accept maybe drive the cost of racing up.

Part of the problem is that FE is still young. At most FE events you have guys calling the race that don't have 20 years of heat racing under their belts. They don't always recognize a lane infraction. Especially at the start. I know I've personally missed calls I should have made. Plenty.

Most of the carnage I've seen happens at the starts. It comes down to lack of experience IMO. If we collectively try to teach some of this out of guys we'll go a long ways toward cleaning up the mess. We also need to teach ourselves to recognize it as contest directors. The fuel guys have less trouble with lanes because they'll get called for it.

Here are some starts I've seen in no particular order:

• Racer leaves super early and is in the back straight with 25 seconds still on the clock. He's already crawling. He comes around 4 with 10 seconds left and has no idea what to do so he slows down to 6mph. We all know how predictable a 6mph boat is................n't. Then the buzzer goes, he nails it, and the boat makes a hard right. Murdering the line of anyone inside of him. Carnage ensues.
  
• Racer leaves super early and realizes in the back straight that he's way too early. He goes out to lane 431 and then hits the front straight wide open with no regard for any of the guys that are in lanes one through 7.
  
• Racer is right on timing wise but he's nervous and doesn't even recognize that he's drifting all over.
  
• Racer is where he belongs. Maybe lane 2 with perfect timing. He figures since he's dead on that the guys crawling at the line will stay on course and not steel his lane. However..........he races with less experienced guys. They gun it. The boat hooks and he nails them. Or drifting guy blows him off the water. No, he shouldn't have to anticipate the ability (or lack there of) of his competition but if he wants to finish it couldn't hurt to know who he's racing. He should be able to rely on the CD to make that call but he's still only going to get 4th place points at best. If his boat is mangled he's done for the weekend.
  

The slow start guy and the drifting guy cause more problems than anything IMO.

The spec classes are in essence intended for less experienced guys. It's a place for us all to learn starts, and turns, and lanes, and etiquette. A little patience will serve us well. Patience from those teaching and those learning. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks this way.

 

[longballlumber]

Good post Terry...

 

[SeanKewley]

Those are some good examples Terry. Each club/member should strive towards policing these things when they occur... in a nurturing way of course.

 

[DPeterson]

Terry - Just courious on why you think another mill lap would increase cost?

Until we get a chance to actually trial some heats with the longer mill I don't think we have sufficient experience to rule it out. I am thinking it is good for a variety of reasons: 1. warms the cells, 2. get a feel for the boat before going full bore, 3. spreads out the boats a little, 4. nitro guys are used to the mill.

Does anybody really know the rules on lanes? The only thing I see written in the IMPBA book is that your boat can not make a sudden left turn into the path of another. This happened to me in our last district race. Electric boats are notoriuos for this due to the quick torque.

I was told once by a prominent IMPBA FE Chairman that you pick your lane entering the turn 3 radious and must remain in that lane coming out heading for the start. I lost count of how many times I am in lane one and racers are cutting across the radious aiming for lane one and smacking the turn 4 bouy. I of course then get accused of shutting door and running them in the bouy.

I am also under the impression that you are able to pass once you are 3 boat lengths past the other boat. Do this and then the boat you pass blows off and you get accused of impeding the boat you passed. It would be nice to know exactly what is expected for race etiquet and have it written and understood. If it is written - please point it out to me.

Thanks - Doug

 

[T.S.Davis]

Doug, you'll be carrying more fuel along with you for the extra mill laps. Plus, if we had 2 laps someone will want 3. Remember when we use to do the figure 9 start? Bitch bitch bitch and low and behold we're all doing the full lap mill. So we doubled the mill and it didn't do anything. If 3 laps would be enough then 4 would be better right? Soon enough all our boats will be offshore setups with 10000 mah on board. Still someone will time it wrong and come out of 4 at 6 mph and gun it at the buzzer. They'll do it becuase the boats will allow it. Only experience will change that.

I'm not suggesting we should do everything different than fuel but can we stop with trying to do it "just like fuel"? The guys that cross over are intelligent enough to handle a little different mill. The nats flyer is supposed to have the expected mill pattern on it. That's because guys are smart enough to adjust accordingly.

If I usually race FE and decide to try nitro would fear of the mill be my deterrent? Surely not. It's the noise for me. If the mill is my excuse for not trying nitro I clearly wasn't interested. I've made an excuse.

It's that "just like fuel" notion that created the "cool down lap" that many of us have to do. Usually at partial throttle which we all know does exactly the opposite of cool anything down. We do that because..........well the fuel guys do it and we don't want to confuse them if they cross over. Come on now. That's nonsense. They're smarter than that.