Discussion on lowering nitro %

[dwilfong]

I'm done you all keep passing gas I stick with HIGH NITRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Got it....you have what you want .......
So now we have to make nitro the same?
WHY???????????

You need to go re-read all my post before commenting on everything I write. I couldn’t give a rats ass what you run in your motors. Hope that was clear enough!

 

[Don Ferrette]

Guys let's take it down a notch. This is merely an open discussion looking for input. If your trip is on higher nitro that's fine but if guys want to look at options gotta have their space................

chill out

 

[Jeff Lutz]

I think some of us are missing the point.
No one is saying limit nitro content. You want to run high nitro...fine, run it.
But my point is there already people out there that run lower percent nitro purposely, because they build their engines to be torque monsters.

Then they set up the boat to use the torque to spin large cupped up props. They don't need to spin the engine to the moon to do the same work.

I know a few people that have very successful twins set up this way. they have a totally different sound,,, the roostertail even looks completely different due to the props being used more efficiently. And most importantly, they launch and return to the dock when the race is finished...

Wear and tear is reduced overall on the boat too,,, fuel, plugs, bearings, internal engine part failure costs are all reduced.

So, if there are some people who run 25% in engines that can and do remain competitive against others running high nitro, what's the issue ? Nobody is saying that we all have to run low nitro at this point, but if it keeps the hobby alive, I'm OK with making the changes needed.
Just adding liquid HP is easy,,, doing the necessary research, modifications, adjustments etc. to run lower nitro and still remain competitive, well that takes a little more brain power.

Look what happened when the NHRA cut the quarter mile down to 1000 ft and reduced
nitro % allowed.... do you think the crew chief and designers just said f*ck it.. guess we will just watch the nitro classes die now....
Nope.. they jumped in with both feet and figured it out, and the cars are running faster in 1000 ft then they did in the quarter!!! and break a lot less parts too!!

I still believe that nitro racers will find a way to run even if the government bans nitro consumption to the general public.
What is killing this hobby is the youth of today that want instant gratification, and don't have the mechanical skills to build or maintain a boat. If they can't just buy it or look up the answer to an issue on their cell phone, then the boat must be junk and gets thrown in the corner or sold on ebay.

Just to keep things straight.... you mentioned it taking a lot of Brain power to run fast on low nitro? You also mention low nitro and torque monster in the same sentence ? The ’window’ of reliabilty goes down when running higher nitro In most cases for heat race boats. Just for anyone reading that may want to run lower nitro and they are not as experienced as some on this thread, it will be easier to run and take less plugs. You have to work on speed with either one at the pond and in your work shop.

 

[bzubee]

My father in law tried FAI once and the motors ran way too hot. The issue with limiting Nitro is policing it,unless the host club provides the fuel.Even then whos to say I wont slip in some go juice

Yep the rc plane guys try all sorts of limiting factors and guys are always finding ways to cheat. It happens now in rc boats with engines just very few clubs tech engines after an event, and I understand why mainly time and everyone is tired after an event so it just isn't done. Yeah someone can file a protest but that is also seldom done. In my 35+ years racing model boats I did see one protest war at a SGRA event the host club did a great job and nothing was found .

 

[Brian Spitzer]

Bill,
Can you elaborate on how people are cheating?

 

[Brad Christy]

Years ago when I was at Shamrock, Bob talked me into running FAI fuel at the Hydro Invitational one year. I did in open hydro. I ran an OPS 67 in an Aeromarine Sprint cat, this is about the same time Bob had that Aeromarine Popeyes cat he ran all over the country. At the time the normal fuel that went into this boat of mine was 30% nitro that we mixed at the shop. The only change I made to the engine was that I swapped the nitro head button out with an FAI head button (An off the shelf OPS product). I used the same prop, same pipe and pipe length, same head clearance but I did have to lean the needle down from where it was with the 30%. The boat ran fine, not as much punch as it had with the nitro but no one could tell that there was any difference in the way it ran with the FAI or 30% fuel.
For years I have run 30% nitro and have won plenty of trophies doing so. When I got back into nitro boats, I mixed up 40% for my boats. The only reason for doing so was because of the volume of product I was buying to mix fuel. This to me made the most since to have the least of any one product left over. Anyway, not trying to hurt anyone’s feeling but 90% of the guys racing nitro boats are terrible drivers (IMO) anyway. It makes no difference to me what they put in their boats, I enjoy beating them on a budget. In fact, I’m turning more guys on to 40% in all of our motors including our 20’s because my boats do well with it as apposed to running 60 or 65%.
Danny, I think the idea has good intentions but oh the headaches! For me, I’m not going to run anybody’s fuel in my engines, so a community tank at a race is out of the question. Then the whole policing thing will be a nightmare as well as people protesting people. It all sounds like way to many headaches but again, just my opinion. I have enough stress in life and not looking to take on anymore when I can avoid it so I’m a No!

Dave, on a side note since you seem to be so outspoken about all this and since you brought it up anyway. My discussion at the pond this past weekend with a mixed group of boaters went like this....Nitro guys have fast boats and are modelers in general but can’t really drive. Gas guys have less builders/modelers in their group. They like to buy rtr, plug and play boats but have a great number of better drivers in their group then do the nitro guys. This is simply because they spend a ton more time driving, whether it be practicing or actually racing and finishing their races. My point is this, don’t knock an IROC series or stock class series, that’s where you find the best of the best of drivers holding those trophies at the end of big races. Again just my opinion but if you run gas you had better practice driving.

Chris,

Gas boaters are better drivers....? Really? That has not been my observation at all. What I've seen is a bunch of cash flush socialites who found a new way to blow their money. They see a new hobby, plunk down a credit card, buy the latest and greatest, and take it to the races. They have NOT put in the hours to learn how to drive or anything remotely resembling pit etiquette. I've seen guys T-bone two boats at once, and, when the carnage is brought back to shore, they laugh about it and say crap like "Hey, that's racing, baby". Then they hop on the phone and order a new boat. They think, as long as they can buy another, what's the harm in scattering someone else's hard earned boat. The reality is that nitro boaters have been forced, by default, to put in the time and learn how to drive. Most of the started with a severely sub-competitive boat in a much slower class, and worked and learned their way into the faster, more competitive classes. The aforementioned learning curve actually exists in nitro, and is absolutely non-existent in gas. The one demographic where you are correct is the older guys who, after a couple decades of running nitro, switched to gas for whatever reason. THOSE gas guys know how to drive.

Not to start a pissing match. I just wanted to set that ***** straight.

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine and Precision LLC

 

[Brad Christy]

Bill,
Can you elaborate on how people are cheating?

Brian,

I think the operative phrase in Bill's reply is "nothing was found".... I've seen two protest tear downs in my years, and neither of them produced any wrong doing.

I don't know how anybody could currently be cheating in nitro classes unless they are running an over-displacement engine. There are no limiters in most classes otherwise, other than physical hull dimensions and hull design restrictions in the scale classes, and that is readily observable.

Most of the time it is somebody's over bloviated sense of their own competitive level reacting to not winning that brings on protests.

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine and Precision LLC

 

[Norm Doerr]

Sooooooo (REDIRECT) We have seen the results of drinking the contents of a Lava lamp and in turn have gone way off "into the weeds. I have to ask.....

What is the best keyboard/mouse combo for keyboard racing? Not asking for secret details on set up, wrist/arm braces etc. Just a good starting point. Is using copious amounts of controlled substances allowed? Would that be considered performance enhancing?

I Must also comment on the Gas boat driver ability comment(s) Gas racers are not inherently better because of anything but doing more laps and driving for longer periods of time. . A gas boat can run MUCH longer allow for more time to screw up and develop skills. Much less maintenance more time on the water.

For those lacking a sense of humor, or who take themselves wayyyy too serious amongst fellow boaters. you may hurt yourself emotionally or even physically, conjuring hate as a result of this post.

Also congrats to those responsible for turning Danny's thread into a Fecal Festival.

Pink Dresses are available for purchase after "the show"

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Chris,

Gas boaters are better drivers....? Really? That has not been my observation at all. What I've seen is a bunch of cash flush socialites who found a new way to blow their money. They see a new hobby, plunk down a credit card, buy the latest and greatest, and take it to the races. They have NOT put in the hours to learn how to drive or anything remotely resembling pit etiquette. I've seen guys T-bone two boats at once, and, when the carnage is brought back to shore, they laugh about it and say crap like "Hey, that's racing, baby". Then they hop on the phone and order a new boat. They think, as long as they can buy another, what's the harm in scattering someone else's hard earned boat. The reality is that nitro boaters have been forced, by default, to put in the time and learn how to drive. Most of the started with a severely sub-competitive boat in a much slower class, and worked and learned their way into the faster, more competitive classes. The aforementioned learning curve actually exists in nitro, and is absolutely non-existent in gas. The one demographic where you are correct is the older guys who, after a couple decades of running nitro, switched to gas for whatever reason. THOSE gas guys know how to drive.

Not to start a pissing match. I just wanted to set that ***** straight.

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine and Precision LLC

I actually agree with most everything you said. My point was gas guys in general get more stick time.

 

[Walt Barney]

Sooooooo (REDIRECT) We have seen the results of drinking the contents of a Lava lamp and in turn have gone way off "into the weeds. I have to ask.....

What is the best keyboard/mouse combo for keyboard racing? Not asking for secret details on set up, wrist/arm braces etc. Just a good starting point. Is using copious amounts of controlled substances allowed? Would that be considered performance enhancing?

I Must also comment on the Gas boat driver ability comment(s) Gas racers are not inherently better because of anything but doing more laps and driving for longer periods of time. . A gas boat can run MUCH longer allow for more time to screw up and develop skills. Much less maintenance more time on the water.

For those lacking a sense of humor, or who take themselves wayyyy too serious amongst fellow boaters. you may hurt yourself emotionally or even physically, conjuring hate as a result of this post.

Also congrats to those responsible for turning Danny's thread into a Fecal Festival.

Pink Dresses are available for purchase after "the show"

Back in the late 80's or early 90's MY boat was protested twice in one year, the engine was taken apart and checked and was found to be bone stock, the reason was the way I built the boat and it was lighter that most built at that time, now everyone is trying to build light boats with the new materials that have come out, I also was running 40%nitro but now to keep up I have to run 60%+ Several years ago Dick Jones Came to the pond with a boat set up just to run Oil and Alky, it was a little hard to start and did not turn up the RPM's but it ran well with no cooling, so it can be done to run lower nitro and still run.
Walt Barney

 

[Ron Olson]

Compared to the price of nitro, it's cheap when you compare the price now of glow plugs. How many runs are you getting out of one? I've had some last me seasons but others I've been through a lot. Some of you are swapping them out after every heat. Now I'm running a $3.00 spark plug which can last a very long time. The days of $30.00 a card is just a memory from the past as so are $200.00 nitro engines that were competitive.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Ok, just a thought here, instead of trying to put any restrictions on nitro % across the board, pick a class that is popular like an open mono or open rigger class and make an FAI or low nitro class. Still offer open mono or open rigger as is for the guys that want to run high nitro but also have a say open rigger FAI (no nitro at all) or even an open rigger where everyone uses fuel from the same bottle say...25 -30% and see what the interest looks like.

 

[HTV Boats]

WOW where do I start. Danny good intentions. Gas drivers better? No comment. I can't type what I want here or Don will be slapping my fingers.
I have run Nitro since 1978 and dabbled in gas. In the 80's we ran 15% and glow plugs seemed to last a long time. Now 50-60% is the norm and at $7+ a plug, any future build for me will be FE. Nitro racers average age is probably 60 something, New growth will be gas and electric. Good news it's still a free country and you get to choose your dance partner.
Mic.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

WOW where do I start. Danny good intentions. Gas drivers better? No comment. I can't type what I want here or Don will be slapping my fingers.
I have run Nitro since 1978 and dabbled in gas. In the 80's we ran 15% and glow plugs seemed to last a long time. Now 50-60% is the norm and at $7+ a plug, any future build for me will be FE. Nitro racers average age is probably 60 something, New growth will be gas and electric. Good news it's still a free country and you get to choose your dance partner.
Mic.

I’m doing as asked and I’m staying on topic!

 

[Buckshot]

I'm one of the guys that travels all over the world playing with these stupid toy boats, and I will have to adapt to the new regulations being implemented in the EU (of 16% nitro max). Of all the boats I currently run, not a one will eat a plug while heat racing with the current amount of nitro % I use unless there is a mechanical issue or I get a hold of the fun dial and go too far, most of the time I have self control, most of the time. (For the record I currently run 60% in 3.5's & 7.5's and 40% in everything else). I go thought around 20gal of fuel in a year with most of that being burned at the test pond on weekends finding the right combination of speed and reliability. With all that testing and fuel burnt I MIGHT go through a sleeve of plugs, that's 20 gallons of fuel and 10 glow plugs BUT I'm not pushing everything to the max. Most of those broken plugs are from the 3.5's & 7.5's (shocking right?). I'm all for our current rule set as it fits with what is going on in the States (i.e. No government limit on R/C fuel content), but can see that will probably change in the near future as our government follows what the EU is doing.
I will be testing with the lower % so that I'm prepared even if it's difficult to test, regulate and monitor nitro content. I haven't had to cheat to win up to this point and don't plan on starting now. If we race and you have to pour the fuel to it to win, have at it, just know you did it and own it.
I have had lots of conversations with the guys over the pond and as expected there is a giant can of worms that has had the lid peeled open. How do they test the fuel? Testing at a race site will be done with a "float" or a type of calibrated hydrometer, which is not 100% accurate with blended fuel. There's already guys playing with fuel blends (i.e different oil types and percentages) and can pass the float test with up to almost 20% nitro.
Then there are some that say just have the event host/organization provide the fuel for all competitors, which is also impossible. If the government will not allow consumers (i.e Me and You) to possess/store/own small amounts of nitro fuel, they damn sure are not going to allow a large volume of fuel to be stored in one location (i.e. race site) with out expensive security and the stipulations they would enforce.
The last option I've heard is that the fuel can only be accurately tested in a lab, which I believe is true. But I do not see the possibility of having a mobile lab being brought to a race site to test everyone's fuel. Even if they did there will be guys that have a jug of fuel just for testing and another in the trailer for filling up the boat (and they would not be the same).
I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm excited to try and make it work. After all this is a hobby and I like tinkering with this crap, it'll give me something new to try and figure out.
Shall I start a separate thread on quiet pipes and noise regulations?

 

[Brad Christy]

I actually agree with most everything you said. My point was gas guys in general get more stick time.

Chris,

Off topic...

Gas guys..... I see them making a lot of laps and burning a lot of gas. Some of them actually work on the boats' set-ups. But, I rarely see them "practicing". Just sayin'....

On topic....

The problem with limiting nitro with a mandate is enforcing it. Just like with several political hot button issues, this mandate will only affect those willing to comply, which will inevitably result in their alienation due to others refusing to comply. I'm more of a free market guy. Let the cost of these issues prevail. Hopefully it will lead to innovation instead of the death of our hobby.

Thanks. Brad.
Titan Racing Components
BlackJack Hydros
Model Machine and Precision LLC

 

[Mark Grannis]

I'm one of the guys that travels all over the world playing with these stupid toy boats, and I will have to adapt to the new regulations being implemented in the EU (of 16% nitro max). Of all the boats I currently run, not a one will eat a plug while heat racing with the current amount of nitro % I use unless there is a mechanical issue or I get a hold of the fun dial and go too far, most of the time I have self control, most of the time. (For the record I currently run 60% in 3.5's & 7.5's and 40% in everything else). I go thought around 20gal of fuel in a year with most of that being burned at the test pond on weekends finding the right combination of speed and reliability. With all that testing and fuel burnt I MIGHT go through a sleeve of plugs, that's 20 gallons of fuel and 10 glow plugs BUT I'm not pushing everything to the max. Most of those broken plugs are from the 3.5's & 7.5's (shocking right?). I'm all for our current rule set as it fits with what is going on in the States (i.e. No government limit on R/C fuel content), but can see that will probably change in the near future as our government follows what the EU is doing.
I will be testing with the lower % so that I'm prepared even if it's difficult to test, regulate and monitor nitro content. I haven't had to cheat to win up to this point and don't plan on starting now. If we race and you have to pour the fuel to it to win, have at it, just know you did it and own it.
I have had lots of conversations with the guys over the pond and as expected there is a giant can of worms that has had the lid peeled open. How do they test the fuel? Testing at a race site will be done with a "float" or a type of calibrated hydrometer, which is not 100% accurate with blended fuel. There's already guys playing with fuel blends (i.e different oil types and percentages) and can pass the float test with up to almost 20% nitro.
Then there are some that say just have the event host/organization provide the fuel for all competitors, which is also impossible. If the government will not allow consumers (i.e Me and You) to possess/store/own small amounts of nitro fuel, they **** sure are not going to allow a large volume of fuel to be stored in one location (i.e. race site) with out expensive security and the stipulations they would enforce.
The last option I've heard is that the fuel can only be accurately tested in a lab, which I believe is true. But I do not see the possibility of having a mobile lab being brought to a race site to test everyone's fuel. Even if they did there will be guys that have a jug of fuel just for testing and another in the trailer for filling up the boat (and they would not be the same).
I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm excited to try and make it work. After all this is a hobby and I like tinkering with this crap, it'll give me something new to try and figure out.
Shall I start a separate thread on quiet pipes and noise regulations?

No on the new thread.

 

[Mark Grannis]

So many fail to recognize the wisdom available to host races in this hobby. Other than rules regarding safety, run your race how ever you wish. JUST PUT IT ON YOUR FLYER, so the race consumer can make the judgement to attend based on those details.

 

[Buckshot]

No on the new thread.

LOL

So many fail to recognize the wisdom available to host races in this hobby. Other than rules regarding safety, run your race how ever you wish. JUST PUT IT ON YOUR FLYER, so the race consumer can make the judgement to attend based on those details.

I don't disagree with that statement, but if the flier doesn't amend all specific organization rules then the organization's rule is still in effect.