Current IMPBA and NAMBA FE Rules.......

[Don Ferrette]

as far as d-12 is concerned what would be the rules governing the type of motor and setup would be legal to race the nitro guys with my ss45?

This year we're going to run Sport 40 and Q Sport Hydro together for the first time. The SS45 would be perfect for that application. No special rules for D12 in this class. Build a IMPBA legal Q Sport Hydro. Prop it to be competitive with the Sport 40's and thats it. The current IMPBA FE rules are on the IMPBA Web Site in the FE section of the forum. The current D12 Nitro/FE combined rules are in the D12 section.

Dick is right on. In D12 we're trying to get as many people racing as possible.Dick and many other D12 racers save the war paint for record trials, national and the WTC.Not that we don't race hard at district races....

Yup, it's FUN FIRST at the local races. Granted quite often the hot topic on Saturday is where we are going to go for steaks and drinks that night but we ain't skeered to pull the triggers either.

 

[T.S.Davis]

How did I miss this little gem? Funny that Chris and Dave's avatars say "beginner boater" and "newbie". Cracks me up.

I've been running P limited since before it had a name. I guess shortly after the SV27 was released I think. Before there was a UL1.

For the 2010 season my sons boat won our clubs LSH class (we didn't call it "Limited" then) with a UL1 motor and a UL1 ESC. In 2011 we ran a Castle 120 and did not win.

For 2010 we had SV's on stock esc's finish 1,2 in LSO against cats and monos with open esc's. For 2011, I ran a Castle 120 all season. I finished ahead of an SV27 to squeek out 2nd place by 3 laps after a whole season of racing. 230 laps or so total.

The NAMBA limited rules are based on what our club and some others have been running for years now. We didn't see a great divide between the open ESC's and the AQ esc's. We didn't just run all Castles and say it made no difference. We ran them together and found that we couldn't find evidence that there was a difference.

By all means, run what works near you. If a specific ESC gives your racers the warm fuzzy then run with it. What ever gets them to the pond. But if you guys feel you need a national set of rules you need to have some backup besides it "feels" right. We always here how the timing tweakers will dominate but nobody has ever shown it to be true. Jims test doesn't prove anything unless it's in traffic with 6 boats. SAW's is a whole different can of worms.

Q Sport against the Sport 40 guys..........hmmmm. Wonder if I could get anyone around here to let me run my Q in Sport 40. I could run in lane 9 to keep it fair. Flame retardant material applied.

 

[lohring]

Our P spec riggers went from speeds in the mid 50s to speeds in the mid 60s with equipment and prop improvements. The Aquacraft ESC has a relatively high internal resistance compared to other ESCs. As you run "better" props the current goes up, stock connectors get hot enough to soften the solder, and the Aquacraft ESC starts to fail. The UL 1 motor actually will carry burst currents well over 100 amps. The question is what component should be the fuse. At present, under NAMBA P limited rules, it is the motor.

Lohring Miller

 

[SeanKewley]

Our P spec riggers went from speeds in the mid 50s to speeds in the mid 60s with equipment and prop improvements. The Aquacraft ESC has a relatively high internal resistance compared to other ESCs. As you run "better" props the current goes up, stock connectors get hot enough to soften the solder, and the Aquacraft ESC starts to fail. The UL 1 motor actually will carry burst currents well over 100 amps. The question is what component should be the fuse. At present, under NAMBA P limited rules, it is the motor.

Lohring Miller

Most experienced heat racers realize that it is not the fastest boat down the straights that win. it is the boat/driver combo that starts the race well, corners well, holds a tight line, and finishes the race in the least amount of time.

I think that is what Terry is trying to point out.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Having been involved in the original drafts for the P-Limited rules, lots of opinions were considered concerning ESCs...

I think people need to keep in mind that the rules are not ONLY there to regulate the "fastest"... but are also there to support the costs... There are ESC combos out there that do not COST as much as a stocker, and work just as well, supposedly, and making a restricted ESC rule that eliminates those was not popular.

NOW, I was originally one of those who would have preferred to see the ESC list spec'd as well, limited to those currently available in the same RTR models that the motors come from (mix and match at your discression), but we lost that battle. So be it. The consequence of that, however, is that those of us who desire can get ESCs that, while they may not provide a pure "power" improvement, will provide a much more responsive throttle, and more programming features to tinker with.

Don't discount the affects of throttle curve and the ability to control the power output... It helps a LOT in classes where balancing the boat on the prop is important... OPC Tunnel and Offshore being the first two that come to mind. Stock ESCs aren't likely to contain the components required to allow for these smoother throttle-curves.

Just another example of the side-effects of some decisions. You allow this, you also get that... Nature of racing and rules...

 

[DPeterson]

Gentleman:

None of this needs to be confrontational or argumentive with wording as such for National considerations;

"Any type or brand of Electronic Speed Controls shall be used in P-Limited Classes unless otherwise specified for individual District or Club events. The classes for these individual District or Club events shall be named "P-Limited Stock" for clarity concerns."

Just broke my cardinal rule - no rules discussions on open forums - my bad!

 

[Darin Jordan]

Just broke my cardinal rule - no rules discussions on open forums - my bad!

Bad Doug! Hand-Slap!

 

[DPeterson]

Darin - I am 98% sure I will be at the Nats. Insteads of the hand slap I am sure I am in line for a good kick in the ass. Been awhile.

 

[Chilli]

I like this better for the IMPBA Doug:

"Electronic Speed Controls from an approved list shall be used in P-Limited Classes unless otherwise specified for individual District or Club events. The classes for these individual District or Club events shall be named "P-Limited Open" for clarity concerns." :lol: Don't know if the IMPBA leadership is going to go for two more power classification much less one.

I don't think I've seen a P-Limited thread in the last year and a half where someone didnt mention fuses and burnt out equipment and keeping spare motors in the parts box. I fear that kind of talk discourages potential new racers and it only increases my resolve to fight to keep the current rules in D12. If you consider the Spec controller the fuse in our district so be it. But those that try to push a controllers beyond it's limits will find out real quick if they are pushing thier system too hard. The motor on the other hand dies a slow death. Enough so where some racers start pushing the equipment well beyond it's design limits toward what they consider an acceptable risk of failure. This leads to the inevitable. And with it increased cost to what I try to tout to new racers as a low cost reliable class. Thats about sums up my whole perspective on the ESC debate.

As I mention in another thread. I though to myself why there are polar opposite views on the controller debate. Then I realized it must have to do with the purpose of the Limited classes. For my district, P-Limited is all about attracting new racers to the hobby. I notice the organizations with a mature FE community tend more to favor pushing there equipment harder.

That's all I' gonna say about that.

 

[Doug Smock]

Can someone post the current IMPBA and NAMBA FE Rules on this Thread? I know Kevin has been putting countless hours into totally updating the Rule Book on the IMPBA website, but in the meantime, it would be awesome to have them posted and pinned at the top of this FE Forum for easy reference. I'm not sure if the NAMBA site is totally updated for the FE Classes or not so posting those rules as well will help. Doug Smock, I am sure you can help with this. Thank's................

So Ron, were all of your questions answered at least once? :lol:

Hope to see you at the races somewhere!

Doug

 

[Darin Jordan]

Darin - I am 98% sure I will be at the Nats. Insteads of the hand slap I am sure I am in line for a good kick in the ass. Been awhile.

Hahaha... Not a chance. Just fun and some good racing! Hell, who knows... when you actually meet me in person, you might even like me!

Will be great if you make it out!!

 

[hugh hargett]

Having been involved in the original drafts for the P-Limited rules, lots of opinions were considered concerning ESCs...

I think people need to keep in mind that the rules are not ONLY there to regulate the "fastest"... but are also there to support the costs... There are ESC combos out there that do not COST as much as a stocker, and work just as well, supposedly, and making a restricted ESC rule that eliminates those was not popular.

NOW, I was originally one of those who would have preferred to see the ESC list spec'd as well, limited to those currently available in the same RTR models that the motors come from (mix and match at your discression), but we lost that battle. So be it. The consequence of that, however, is that those of us who desire can get ESCs that, while they may not provide a pure "power" improvement, will provide a much more responsive throttle, and more programming features to tinker with.

Don't discount the affects of throttle curve and the ability to control the power output... It helps a LOT in classes where balancing the boat on the prop is important... OPC Tunnel and Offshore being the first two that come to mind. Stock ESCs aren't likely to contain the components required to allow for these smoother throttle-curves.

Just another example of the side-effects of some decisions. You allow this, you also get that... Nature of racing and rules...

Darins right though about the response curve etc. Different esc have different commutation algorithms that can lead to a smoother more efficient esc as well as reliabilty. It does factor in on the performance of a speed controller. Do you know that the commutation algorithms are only written typically at 90 percent anyway. They get the function into an excel chart and it spits out what will be copied into the mcu's database for the commutation and firing of the fet drivers. Its not just about the current handling of the fets. The rise and fall times of the rc circuits is very important as well to prevent dead shorts and shoot-through coz a fet wasnt all the way off before the hi side fires or low whichever order you like.

It is lpossible that the aquacraft may work better together because the esc may have been based centrally around running an aqua craft motor so that is something to consider to when mixing and matching equipment.

 

[Darin Jordan]

But those that try to push a controllers beyond it's limits will find out real quick if they are pushing thier system too hard. The motor on the other hand dies a slow death. Enough so where some racers start pushing the equipment well beyond it's design limits toward what they consider an acceptable risk of failure. This leads to the inevitable. And with it increased cost to what I try to tout to new racers as a low cost reliable class.

I don't think you have that right... What happens in reality is that the motor dies a slow death, regardless of which controller is in front of it, and eventually, when the motor craps out, it takes the controller with it...

There is really NOTHING "inexpensive" about the factory ESCs in these RTR boats... They are a little more expensive, if not more-so, than many other, oftentimes better, options out there.

With Electrics... there is ALWAYS going to be a fuse... It's just how it works. Motors are $79.99... (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXVSV3&P=ML)...

Stock ESCs are $89.99 (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXVSV4&P=M), BEFORE you pay to replace the contacts...

Motors are still a less expensive fuse... And, again... it's likely the system that's getting taken out. When the ESC goes, it's sitting in there right next to your other electronics, batteries, etc... Not sure how you are saving any cost by moving the fuse to that location.

If the National rules would have required stock RTR ESCs, I'd have been fine with that and worked within those rules. But, I don't think it's a valid arguement to say that NOT allowing aftermarket ESCs is somehow making things "more reliable" and helping to control "costs"... It's really not. It's really making things run closer to their limits, and hurting drivability, especially on something like an OPC Tunnel... So I can understand the argument by those who advocate still for stock ESCs...

I do think it hurts the hobby and the classes to have different rules locally vs. Nationally, but only in the sense that it makes larger get-togethers a little more difficult...

 

[DPeterson]

Geez Hugh - Are you a rocket scientist? Commutation algorithms? Mcu's database? Firing of the fet drivers? :unsure:

Been trying to wrap my head around what D12 and D13 keeps saying and promoting.

On one hand I read where they say they had not seen any failures - not one iota. Then on the other hand they talk about a bucket of burnt motors. Where are you seeing this burnt up equipment? Did you just read about it? Be carefull what you read on the forums. I have been to 10 races last year spreading across North America all the way from London Ontario to Scottsdale Arizona. Many stops in between. I have not seen one burnt motor or esc. I have seen on two occasions where magnets have been thrown. One was with an AQ esc and the other not.

A couple years back when the classes were just start out I have seen and experienced some burnt motors. All due to proping incorrectly. There are a good number of us that needed and wanted to see where the limits were.

Then there is the new racer argument. Where are these new racers? All the new racers in my Districts in both NAMBA and IMPBA are pimarily Nitro converts. Why are they converting? They like the speeds they are seeing from our set ups and nitro is in decline. However they have absolutely no interest in mixed fuel races. The very few new guys I have met are in it for the speed also.

P-Limited means a 14 volt class, 34 inch length limit with a list of spec motors. This is one power class not two. If your district wants to spec an esc along side have at it. Adding the word Stock to your race flyer does not create a new power class. There is a way to work this out that will satisfy all involved providing there is desire to do so.

If I understand it correclty you have mixed racing because you have a general shortage of nitro and electric racers. Your approach seems very reasonable for your area and current circumstances. I am feeling very fortunate I have a ton of races locally and long distance I can attend without detuning. Those that know me knows it is not in my ability to do so. :huh:

 

[RonShaw]

Can someone post the current IMPBA and NAMBA FE Rules on this Thread? I know Kevin has been putting countless hours into totally updating the Rule Book on the IMPBA website, but in the meantime, it would be awesome to have them posted and pinned at the top of this FE Forum for easy reference. I'm not sure if the NAMBA site is totally updated for the FE Classes or not so posting those rules as well will help. Doug Smock, I am sure you can help with this. Thank's................

So Ron, were all of your questions answered at least once? :lol:

Hope to see you at the races somewhere!

Doug

Yes, and then some Mr Smock.......

Great to hear from you. Hope to aee u at a race soon as well. Keep in touch.......

 

[Chilli]

I don't think you have that right... What happens in reality is that the motor dies a slow death, regardless of which controller is in front of it, and eventually, when the motor craps out, it takes the controller with it...

There is really NOTHING "inexpensive" about the factory ESCs in these RTR boats... They are a little more expensive, if not more-so, than many other, oftentimes better, options out there.

With Electrics... there is ALWAYS going to be a fuse... It's just how it works. Motors are $79.99... (http://www3.towerhob...?&I=LXVSV3&P=ML)...

Stock ESCs are $89.99 (http://www3.towerhob...p?&I=LXVSV4&P=M), BEFORE you pay to replace the contacts...

Motors are still a less expensive fuse... And, again... it's likely the system that's getting taken out. When the ESC goes, it's sitting in there right next to your other electronics, batteries, etc... Not sure how you are saving any cost by moving the fuse to that location.

If the National rules would have required stock RTR ESCs, I'd have been fine with that and worked within those rules. But, I don't think it's a valid arguement to say that NOT allowing aftermarket ESCs is somehow making things "more reliable" and helping to control "costs"... It's really not. It's really making things run closer to their limits, and hurting drivability, especially on something like an OPC Tunnel... So I can understand the argument by those who advocate still for stock ESCs...

I do think it hurts the hobby and the classes to have different rules locally vs. Nationally, but only in the sense that it makes larger get-togethers a little more difficult...

I appreciate your input Darin and know you have been at this longer than me. I can only comment on my experience with the Aquacaft set up. I have to admit that I did burn out a motor with the UL1 while playing with props last year. The motor did suffer a slow death however in my case the Aquacraft ESC did survive and is still in use today. I have seen a Aquacaft ESC blow without the motor self distructing also. In this case a fellow club member was over propped. I warned him but he used a set up someone had recommended and poof!! The motor was not distroyed though I'm sure it's service life has been reduced. I have seen multiple motor/ESC failures and in every case the stock bullets being used. I highly recommend everyone to replace the Aquacraft bullets.

I hate the term fuse because to me a fuse is a safety device to protect electronic components from damage.

RTR ESC's we use in the Limited classes are not the cheapest units out there but they are not exactly a Castle 120 either.

http://www3.towerhob...0001p?&I=LXRJL4

Are the Aquacraft units the best out there? Probably not, but they have been solid performers and reliable in D12 and D13. I have not heard one complaint from any district racers. As far as bullets go, I can't think of any speed controller that came with bullets that I havent replaced. And most ESC's do not come with bullets so thats a wash.

You are correct that the Aquacraft controller does cost a little more than the motor. And Im sure you have a greater knowledge than most of us. But all I know about open controllers in the limited classes is what I read on the boards. I've been paying very close attention the past year and a half because I think the IMPBA will some day have to come up with our own set of Limited rules . The guys who are using open controllers consistantly tell the new FE guys interested in the Limited Classes that to be competitive, they will burn out motors during the race season. I never hear a peep about speed controllers or multiple failures. I wish I had all the posts bookmarked for you. I believe this is even mentioned in one of the NAMBA newletters. Ten bucks extra for a controller doesnt seem like a bad deal if it keeps me from having to buy two extra motors to last a season. Three UL1 motors equals a NEU. Do I believe most NAMBA guys are going through multiple motors every year. Probably not. But the trend in the posts is there and I cannot ingore it.

It sucks that everyone can't agree on a consistant set up rules, but we all have to do whats best for our district members. The D12 crowd is happy with the rules the way they are. We also have a Stock Gas class that has a unique set of rules. It was the most popular run class in the district last year. What ever brings guys to the races.....

I don't know why I put myself in this hornets nest. One of these days I'll learn. :lol: Time to go racing!!

 

[hugh hargett]

Nah guys if i get too technical just tell me but it seemed that most of the guys are in the same stratosphere as me. Well Darin i guess the ul is a special beast. Im speaking of designing esc's to go with a specific motor, as far as damage either can cause the other to fail . Wats out there are semi/universal units. If the ul motors are dying a slow death then folks are pushing them past their limits . No doubt about it. I wasnt speaking of failures more than I was speaking of response curves in the throttle, the ramp up sequence to start the motor etc. The point about ul motors failing makes a point to me:if people are burning them up its for the same reason that everyone burns motors up THEY WANT MORE. The very reason I myself dont really care for limited stuff coz i already know I want more from the get go.All te issues about money is whatever coz no matter what you do if you get seriously into rc boating whether its limited setups or open you going to kick out the dollars. I mean how do you get around the price of good lipos? ;The one thing that certainly makes a huge difference in performance. The ul stuff isnt cheap pricewise anyway really. jus my 2. Im going to build some boats have fun with this one of a million debates about rules and limited setups they are starting to drain me.

All i can say is SHOW YOUR OPEN SETUPS bump p ltd. weve seen enough

Chilli im with you lets go build some boats and race .

RON, the fuse is to protect YOU lol

 

[obrien]

I don't think you have that right... What happens in reality is that the motor dies a slow death, regardless of which controller is in front of it, and eventually, when the motor craps out, it takes the controller with it...

There is really NOTHING "inexpensive" about the factory ESCs in these RTR boats... They are a little more expensive, if not more-so, than many other, oftentimes better, options out there.

With Electrics... there is ALWAYS going to be a fuse... It's just how it works. Motors are $79.99... (http://www3.towerhob...?&I=LXVSV3&P=ML)...

Stock ESCs are $89.99 (http://www3.towerhob...p?&I=LXVSV4&P=M), BEFORE you pay to replace the contacts...

Motors are still a less expensive fuse... And, again... it's likely the system that's getting taken out. When the ESC goes, it's sitting in there right next to your other electronics, batteries, etc... Not sure how you are saving any cost by moving the fuse to that location.

If the National rules would have required stock RTR ESCs, I'd have been fine with that and worked within those rules. But, I don't think it's a valid arguement to say that NOT allowing aftermarket ESCs is somehow making things "more reliable" and helping to control "costs"... It's really not. It's really making things run closer to their limits, and hurting drivability, especially on something like an OPC Tunnel... So I can understand the argument by those who advocate still for stock ESCs...

I do think it hurts the hobby and the classes to have different rules locally vs. Nationally, but only in the sense that it makes larger get-togethers a little more difficult...

I appreciate your input Darin and know you have been at this longer than me. I can only comment on my experience with the Aquacaft set up. I have to admit that I did burn out a motor with the UL1 while playing with props last year. The motor did suffer a slow death however in my case the Aquacraft ESC did survive and is still in use today. I have seen a Aquacaft ESC blow without the motor self distructing also. In this case a fellow club member was over propped. I warned him but he used a set up someone had recommended and poof!! The motor was not distroyed though I'm sure it's service life has been reduced. I have seen multiple motor/ESC failures and in every case the stock bullets being used. I highly recommend everyone to replace the Aquacraft bullets.

I hate the term fuse because to me a fuse is a safety device to protect electronic components from damage.

RTR ESC's we use in the Limited classes are not the cheapest units out there but they are not exactly a Castle 120 either.

http://www3.towerhob...0001p?&I=LXRJL4

Are the Aquacraft units the best out there? Probably not, but they have been solid performers and reliable in D12 and D13. I have not heard one complaint from any district racers. As far as bullets go, I can't think of any speed controller that came with bullets that I havent replaced. And most ESC's do not come with bullets so thats a wash.

You are correct that the Aquacraft controller does cost a little more than the motor. And Im sure you have a greater knowledge than most of us. But all I know about open controllers in the limited classes is what I read on the boards. I've been paying very close attention the past year and a half because I think the IMPBA will some day have to come up with our own set of Limited rules . The guys who are using open controllers consistantly tell the new FE guys interested in the Limited Classes that to be competitive, they will burn out motors during the race season. I never hear a peep about speed controllers or multiple failures. I wish I had all the posts bookmarked for you. I believe this is even mentioned in one of the NAMBA newletters. Ten bucks extra for a controller doesnt seem like a bad deal if it keeps me from having to buy two extra motors to last a season. Three UL1 motors equals a NEU. Do I believe most NAMBA guys are going through multiple motors every year. Probably not. But the trend in the posts is there and I cannot ingore it.

It sucks that everyone can't agree on a consistant set up rules, but we all have to do whats best for our district members. The D12 crowd is happy with the rules the way they are. We also have a Stock Gas class that has a unique set of rules. It was the most popular run class in the district last year. What ever brings guys to the races.....

I don't know why I put myself in this hornets nest. One of these days I'll learn. :lol: Time to go racing!!

As I am sure you well know I am one of those that favor open controllers. I have been running the turnigy esc's in all of my limited boats for over two seasons. I have never told anyone that they will need to buy extra motors because they are going to burn up motors to be fast. I have won my share of races with the same motor and esc. I even won the p-limited rigger at the namba nats last year with the the same setup, even using the cheap turnigy batteries. I know you guys in D12 and D13 have a hard time believing me, but you can ask the guys from the club I was in back then about the esc problems we had with the aq stuf

 

[T.S.Davis]

Early on I was burning up motors. When I was still looking for the envelope. I had one motor failure in 2011. I killed that motor with a prop I knew was questionable. M646 was too much for my 4 minute boat with our course size. I'm not sure there was another failure in our club. I don't remember any at least. To win our offshore class Fred ran 232 laps. He ran the motor he ran for the 2010 the season and at the 2010 nats. So that motor that won our Limited Offshore class has right around 450 laps on it. That's on a Castle 120. So the ESC wasn't used to push the equipment to the very edge of it's capacity.

Chilli mentioned "guys who are using open consistantly tell the new FE guys interested in the Limited Classes that to be competitive, they will burn out motors during the race season" I've not seen this or heard anyone say it. Heck, I'm not doing it either. Where are all these motor failures I've heard eluded too? I read where Wilmer had a guy with a failure but that aws on the AQ speedo. I saw Peterson cook one that was HIS fault. Tool. That might have just been connectors thinking back. I saw Joye wire one up on 8s instead of 4s2p by mistake. Holy crap BTW! That motor survived too.

 

[DPeterson]

Terry wrote: I saw Peterson cook one that was HIS fault.

I forgot about that one. In my Whip last year at the P-Shoot out. Lost a cooling tube on my yge 120. Took out my yge. The only spare esc I had was a CC 240. I forgot to set the timing back down to normal. It fried the wires entering the can. Put the timing down, put in another motor and everything was good.

For the record - all my yge's have timing availability. I do not time anything above 15 degrees. I believe the UL1 motors are designed for somewhere between 11 and 15 degrees. I have experimented with higher timing and found that the heat generated did not justify the xtra 1 or 2 rpm's per volt.

Also - I do run some agressive props. To make this work I set up my boats to run loose with a particular weight to power ratio. My Whip has custom sponsons to pack more air underneath. My mono's as well as my tunnel's run higher than normal strut heights. I control the boats handling with certain size rudders, trim tabs and turn fins. You can run a mild stock prop and an AQ esc on these P-Limited boats, but if you drown the surface piercing props you will smoke the motors. The key is in the set up folks. Do yourself a favor and learn it.