Current IMPBA and NAMBA FE Rules.......

[Chilli]

A national P-Limited class was being considered last year. The ESC thing reared it's ugly head as well as other issues and it was decided to hold off for a while. The delay has been a good thing as information is being collected to help the IMPBA come up with a solid set of rules when it comes time to move forward.

In the mean time I just follow the rules for the host pond where ever I run and have fun!!

 

[MrHammerHead]

I am one of those that doesn't see the necessity to make the Limited classes official IMPBA classes for many of the reasons that have already been mentioned.

The only "real" reason why this would be done is so that records could be set in those classes. Given the issues with teching I think this is problematic at best.

There has to be a way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a boat can be deemed as completely legal for the respective class when it comes to time trials.

This is the only way to keep the integrity of the records being set. I do not believe there is a reliable standard to do this with the Limted classes.

The current situation in the IMPBA is working to grow these classes and FE in general.

I would welcome more dicussion on this in the FE section on the IMPBA forum.

Chris Harris

 

[RonShaw]

Chris,

First of all, congrats on your new IMPBA position. I appreciate your thoughts on this thread. I see your point and your concerns are probably the very reason B Stock Tunnel has not become an official class as well. Complete and accurate checks for rule comformity is definetly an issue. Something as simple as armature mods would be very hard to detect. The P-Limited Class is a popular and much needed "Stock" FE Class. Unofficially, it would be great to find a way to keep this class growing and goverened to help grow the hobby as a whole. What other class can a newbie boater walk into today and be competitive right out of the gate? Talk about getting them hooked!!!!!!.........

FE is really growing at a fast pace, and after running my very first FE boat at the Winternats (thanks to Dick Loeb), I understand why. The speeds for such simple setups are amazing to say the least. Keep up the good work and lets all continue to grow the FE Classes any way we can........

 

[HTV Boats]

...the only thing I can figure out is there must be a fundamental difference in the purpose of the P-Limited Class between those that want to run Open ESC's and those that don't....

I agree, and I think most know by now that there are really 2 schools of thought. Neither is 100% right or wrong as situations are different from one geographical area to the next, and both get (or deserve) respect.

As I see it, the direction we took in NAMBA really focused on the desire of most of the FE racers, while the decisions made within some IMPBA clubs to spec an ESC stem from the desire to simplify FE for those wanting to cross over or for new racers to help make FE less intimidating and more reliable.

Bottom line, no matter what you're using for an ESC, P-Ltd racing is fun, tight and inexpensive (relatively speaking!) and as much as I'd like to see P/Q/T grow, P-Ltd is where racers are flocking to. And it keeps getting better each year.

This is the best explanation I have seen yet. NAMBA has gone ahead and made a class and crafted rules with racers in mind. IMPBA is split between running a similar class (approved motors) and one that regulates the motor and esc to basically one choice. I understand the logic of making it simple, reliable and equal competition. It has been tried with many RTR classes that eventually get ruined withmore experienced people beating up on newbies, or the attitude run it for the wife and kids so they can participate and the competiton level suffers and the class dies. The basic thing I see in this hobby/sport is a mentality that likes to tinker and modify and outthink their competition as part of the race. The fun runner who just wants to be part of the action seems to fade and the racers stick and build other equipment.

I would like to see IMPBA rules mirror NAMBA and give everone one place to start. The rest of FE rules look pretty similar. Would just using an approved motor ruin racing or give anyone a real advantage? The issue on ESC to me is cost and giving one manufacturer an exclusive. You are then tied to any price increase and what if they change their product say from 60 to 80 amps in an effort to improve their RTR boat. Better cheaper units are availiable and if we create the market there may be more. We have a chance to make a complete national class that both IMPBA and NAMBA can compete together in and we won't flex on controllers that will save money and do the job well. You cannot protect everone from burning up equipment with two fuses (motor/esc). You still can overprop and burn it down or do we regulate propellors too. I feel the motor is enough and if inspection is an issue it makes easier with one parameter rather than two. Make a claiming rule and allow anyone the option to buy the winning motor at any race for the market price or replace it with one new in the box. I don't see cheating running rampant in an entry level class.

Hopefully the racers who like competition will put their big boy pants on and step up to regular P & Q classes.

Mic

 

[DPeterson]

General misunderstandings from all the threads on the esc subject:

P-Limited classes were not or ever designed to be RTR-Stock-beginner classes. These classes evolved from the LSH and LSO 700 brushed motor classes from the past. Only specs were motors and cell count. Those that desires RTR Stock classes should develop them without affecting the P-Limited classes.

Specing ESC's or even motors does not prevent one from burning equipment. Stupidity is the root cause for burning up equipment. ( I can personally attest to this) The only potential way to protect from burning is to spec props. Because the P-Limited classes are not Stock(same hull) classes specing props is not a viable option.

Establishing rules for universal national considerations in both IMPBA and NAMBA would mainly benefit a very small number of racers that like to compete for records compared to the majority of racers that just like to heat race. And to reinforce what Chris stated - until someone figures out a surefire way to tech the equipment any plans to establish national rules might as well be tabled.

Doug

IMPBA District 4 FE Director

NAMBA Rules Committee Volunteer

 

[HTV Boats]

I do not see how a nationwide universal spec class would only benefit a small number of records racers. Most of the elite FE racers are record racers because there are very few heat races to attend. If the classes do not have records on the IMPBA side so be it. But just kicking the can down the road does not help promote more heat racing. Trying something even as restrictive as some districts have done is better than sitting waiting for races to appear. So far I see no real conflict in accepted motors locally or nationally. The ESC debate could be compromised to allow a couple more economic choices without ruining the class and where we have bordering dictricts some compromise would surely bring in more racers and what would be the down side? There seems to be a different picture of racing in the FE community. You can see it on discussions on OSE and RRR vs IW.

Mic

 

[MrHammerHead]

I do not see how a nationwide universal spec class would only benefit a small number of records racers. Most of the elite FE racers are record racers because there are very few heat races to attend. If the classes do not have records on the IMPBA side so be it. But just kicking the can down the road does not help promote more heat racing. Trying something even as restrictive as some districts have done is better than sitting waiting for races to appear. So far I see no real conflict in accepted motors locally or nationally. The ESC debate could be compromised to allow a couple more economic choices without ruining the class and where we have bordering dictricts some compromise would surely bring in more racers and what would be the down side? There seems to be a different picture of racing in the FE community. You can see it on discussions on OSE and RRR vs IW.

Mic

Please tell me how you think making the Limited classes official in the IMPBA mirroring the NAMBA rule set will create more heat racing opportunities? Heat races like anything are powered by people. If you do not have people willing to put themselves out to put on races you don't have anything. Putting additional words in a ruebook will not make more races appear on the calendar. As far as I can see most racers that really want to race are willing to cross over whether it be from NAMBA to IMPBA or vice versa and they are willing to run by the rules of whatever district a particular race is in. At this very moment I'm in D13 ( I live in D3) at the first Grand Prix race of the year and the FE classes at this race are being strongly supported. I'm going to have a good time, bad weather and all.

Chris

 

[Tim leyde]

I would hate to be tide down on ONLY buying AQ and PB esc. We all know there are just as good of ones out there for almost half the money....

TL

 

[Kris Flynn]

There is alot of opinions being thrown around by nitro racers who have only been in FE for a year or two MAX!

Not saying anything is wrong with this as such, but to methe seasoned FE racers need to be listened to better. This debate gets brought up every 2~3 months and ends with the same result

Kris

 

[RonShaw]

A national P-Limited class was being considered last year. The ESC thing reared it's ugly head as well as other issues and it was decided to hold off for a while. The delay has been a good thing as information is being collected to help the IMPBA come up with a solid set of rules when it comes time to move forward.

In the mean time I just follow the rules for the host pond where ever I run and have fun!!

There are some great points being made on both sides of the fence. Eventually I am sure this debate will be officially addressed. The FE classes are still relatively new and minor tweaks to the rules will happen over time. Until then, I will be like Chilli and look over the District rules for that race, make the changes necessary to attend and race legally, and have a blast!!!!!.........

BTW......I'm one of the FE newbies and one of the reasons for starting this thread was to get more information on NAMBA and IMPBA FE P-Limited rules so I follow them accordingly. I achieved that, and a lot of much needed discussion that will help the class overall. Lets all keep the ideas coming. Eventually, final rules will be in place and we can wait for the next new class to mold..............

 

[HTV Boats]

To Chris H, I respectfully disagree and feel a legitimately recognized class in the rule book is going to build things better. The whole start of this thread was misunderstanding of rules that were not in the rule book. People have built equipment to race and naturally woner why there is no official class. This seems to boil down to an esc controversy that is holding up everything.I have heard no conflict on the recognised powerheads on either side. NAMBA isn't crumbling because of the decision that was made. They got it done and are moving forward. Since you live in a predominantly NAMBA district you are aware of the FE struggle there and virtually no recognition from the district. Other than the one time NAMBA nats the only other offerings to heat race has been for tunnels in the Tampa area. That is due to a few of us who have pushed our way in. So when you say "really" bear in mind I have 3 spec boats, 2 with AQ controllers so I can go north and race in D-13. I cannot however convince everyone to do this when the local FE racers are not sold on it. If we held races here with that restriction we would loose people. We both ran at the NAMBA nats and there were 20 tunnels in the class with no restrictions on ESC's. With that rule would there have been a 20 boat class? I am sure there were some other than AQ esc's and this was our first official heats in FE. My son Jay actually had the low time record in ob/tunnel for the event with a D-13 approved esc. We have been to SOWEGA before and probably would have gone this weekend had I not had a knee replacement over the holidays and am just rehabing sort of under house arrest.

This brings me to Kris Flynns statement. Yes some of us are new to FE and in our excitement we have opinions.Ergo the debate comes up again with new to FE racers who wonder why an available cheaper alternative is not approved. Maybe after years of blowing up high dollar nitro motors smoking a motor or esc doesn't seem like a big deal. I have not figured out why a guy buys $150 crankshafts like popcorn and balks at FE prices.In 30 years and two generation I have heat raced in many districts, Nationals, Internationals, some US-1 experience and maybe have just a little knowledge along the way. Comming into FE the old guard there treats us like we know nothing,when we are trying to sell our fuel friends on building FE equipment and pushing forward to get classes included in some events.Talk about bitting the hand that reached out to you. If you think the new FE racers are comming from the fun runners on OSE good luck.

The Charleston World outboards have run FE for a few years and finally this year we have 4 classes and looks to be a good turnout. Last year there were seven FE's in two classes. This year to date there are 24 FE's in 4 classes plus a couple more in open tunnel. When I look at the entry list all I see is crossovers from nitro so far. This is right in D-13 and some in FL are not comming because of the ESC rule. Actually have a full "P" class and "Q". I have not seen any support here from the "experienced" FE community. It is a great opportunity to promote FE.

Mic

 

[SeanKewley]

Mic,

This discussion should really be moved to the IMPBA member's forum.

 

[RonShaw]

Sean,

I posted it here because it involves IMPBA and NAMBA. We like discussing it here but thanks.

 

[HTV Boats]

Sean,

I posted it here because it involves IMPBA and NAMBA. We like discussing it here but thanks.

I am on IW,the Dock,OSE and RRR but not on IMPBA forum yet. Too many passwords. I guess I have just come to trust the overall opinions here more than any site so far.

Mic

 

[Chilli]

Come on Mic, There is no "old guard" when it comes to FE's. Five years ago electric guys would get laughed all the way to the parking lot if they brought a boat to the pond. There are instances when a IC vet comes to the FE boards, people see their post count and wrongly assume the person is an inexperienced boater. But if I recognize any IC crossovers on the FE board for the first time, I immediate welcome them to insure everyone knows we have veteran boaters joining us. Someone that we (the FE community) can learn from. I've also seen my other FE racers do the same.

As far as the ESC thing in the Spec class? it's been argued time and time again on the FE boards. So much so that I think the major players are tired of talking about it and just agree to disagree. We have tried for two years to convince each other that "our way" is betten and we realize it just aint gonna happen. No matter what side of the issue people support, the vast majority are happy with the rules in their district.

As for the WTC, it's been the done the same way since they first started running the P-Spec class. As I mentioned in another thread, the rules were copied from a set of NAMBA district or club rules (probably from Florida). I guarantee if the race went to open controllers, the majority of the racers would scream bloody murder that the guys running 120 amp controllers with adjustable timing will have an advantage over them. Any they would be correct. I'm planning on attending a NAMBA1 race this year. I've already started reading the district rules to insure I'm in compliance. If I see something I don't like, I'm not going to tell them to change the rule or I'm wont come.

The reason you see mostly crossovers at the WTC is because FE racers and Tunnel racers are a different breed. You can put a squirrel in a tunnel hull and make it run, a tunnel head will race it. The FE community is not as mature and we don't have the base of traveling racers yet. That is going to take time. But even then, your typical FE racer is more into the power system then the hull type. A FE guy is more likely to have a tunnel, mono and rigger in the fleet rather than mulitple tunnel hulls. If a national race with multiple FE classes were held in the mid Atlantic area, I would be there in a heartbeat with my FE's and my gas boat. And I bet I'll have a caravan of FE guys following me.

BTW- The exposure the nitro tunnel cross overs have given electric boats are major player in the growth of FE's in the South East. I thank you guys!!!!

 

[carlnoki]

Squirrel? SQUIRREL?!!!!!!!!!!

I resemble that remark!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFLOL :lol: :lol:

 

[Chilli]

Hamsters???

 

[Mike Culhane]

Gerbils are faster than Hamsters!!!!

 

[Chilli]

Maybe but in NAMBA gerbils are faster, but in the IMPBA.............. :lol:

 

[carlnoki]

oh, GAWD,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :blink: B)