At least the IMPBA made rules that are clear

[sjslhill]

Hey Terry, do you see any mention of a vendor here? Your remarks are right on target however for an immature F/E director with little or no experience.

As for my opinion, we have sent thousands of dollars in the past to support events. Thanks for giving us your NAMBA F/E director view on here. I was racing F/E when you were in grade school.

regards,

Steve

Crazy Steve strikes again. Get help Steve.
N1 mono, LSH, LSO are still brushed. And you bet, the NAMBA members voted for what they wanted. Which is exactly what they will do with this new proposal. Vote for against it as they see fit. The members will get what the members vote for or against. Again! Direct democracy.

Now, on the upcoming NAMBA proposal. It's a combination of proposals written by 5 people from 4 districts. 3 of the major FE clubs voted in favor of each proposal. It has my endorsement. I have no sponsors and don't you dare accuse me of being in anyones pocket. You don't know who authored it so don't claim too.

You've seen bits and pieces here and there but have NOT seen the proposal. Nobody has yet. We're waiting on the mail. You wont likely get to see it as you are not a NAMBA member. No that I think on it, why is this of such concern to you when you don't race at either IMPBA or NAMBA sanctioned events? Vested interest perhaps? Your entitled to your opinion Steve. Do you even know what your having an opinion on? You can't possibly because you don't have the proposal.

To the NAMBA members, don't listen to any of this drivel. In fact, don't listen to me either. Read the proposal, form your own opinion and vote accordingly.

 

[T.S.Davis]

"Thanks for giving us your NAMBA F/E director view on here"

Your clear on my view are you? This proposal is endorsed by me. I helped with it sure. If I endorse a proposal that you haven't seen then how do you know what my "view" is? Let me help. My view is that the members will vote and get what they want. Be it limits, no limits, LiPo, no LiPo, brushless, no brushless, offshore, sport, courses. I trust them enough to let them decide.

Your opinion on the proposal that you haven't seen is this "we have sent thousands of dollars in the past to support events"

You don't know me Steve. Age doesn't entitle you to respect. I didn't know you could buy a right to it either. Good for you. You get yours your way and I'll get mine my way.

 

[brooks93]

I was racing F/E when you were in grade school.

Key word here is WAS.

Steve if the IMPBA rules make sence to you then the Namba ones that are in the mail wil have the chance of being the same or more restrictive. Its funny you say that the IMPBA's version is clear but, the namba version makes everything unlimited. maybe read the real thing before you get up on the soap box.

 

[sjslhill]

Was? Gald you know everything. I belong to CMBC and was there in July. As for paying for an opinion, talk about a spin on words. I would think that someone that helps events would be welcome to voice an opinion.

Finally, fix your post Kelly, it's incorrect. The IMPBA is unlimited, not the namba version makes everything unlimited.

I am glad that you voiced your opinions of me here and pointed it out. I never made mention of any names but it's clear that you two had a major impact on what is going down. I hope that everyone likes your decisions.

regards,

Steve

I was racing F/E when you were in grade school.

Key word here is WAS.

Steve if the IMPBA rules make sence to you then the Namba ones that are in the mail wil have the chance of being the same or more restrictive. Its funny you say that the IMPBA's version is clear but, the namba version makes everything unlimited. maybe read the real thing before you get up on the soap box.

 

[Darin Jordan]

I hope that everyone likes your decisions.

Pretty simple way to find out... NAMBA members who don't like it simply vote NO on Lipos... Then we won't have to worry about the limits or paralleling or any of that...

Then you'll have the best of both worlds, because those who wish to run Lipos will move to the IMPBA, and the only ones left in NAMBA FE will be those who don't wish to run them now, or those who are wanting to wait for someone to come up with a set of workable limits...

So far, what I've heard here is nothing more than bitching and ranting, with some vague IDEAS of what limits could be imposed..., but no concrete SPECIFICATIONS or PARAMETERS that could actually be imposed that would do the job.

Limit the amps

HOW???

Limit the motor

Other than N1 and LS classes... HOW???

Limit the size of the hull

To WHAT??? Do some work here and lay it down...

Limit the weight of the batteries

Again... TO WHAT??? Let's have a proposal here...

Limit something

h34r:

You sit there and criticize and attack others for their ideas/thoughts/proposals... PUT your ass on the line and put something forth if you have all the answers...

Personally, I think some of you are getting all hyped out about what might... MIGHT... be possible, but what is actually ACHIEVABLE might be a whole other story...

 

[brooks93]

Finally, fix your post Kelly, it's incorrect. The IMPBA is unlimited, not the namba version makes everything unlimited.

shows how much you know of the actual purposal steve. you have a right to your opinion but, at least make it a educated opinion and not one based on rumors

Steve your opinions go all over the place when it comes to lipos. do a search by your user name and use lipos in the search. You say they are the future to atom bombs back to the future and then back to the death of FE. You also say your not going to sell them but, you do sell them. Then back to saying we are blowing them out to just in such and such new lipo.

It doesn't take someone very long to see you have been and always do bash Namba. So this doesn't suprise me.

actually I didn't have any impact on this purposal. I was asked what I thought of it and suggested some wording changes to clarify it and thats was about it. I am also a director so I got to see the purposal before it was mailed out.

 

[Darin Jordan]

actually I didn't have any impact on this purposal. I was asked what I thought of it and suggested some wording changes to clarify it and thats was about it. I am also a director so I got to see the purposal before it was mailed out.

Kelly... Just tell everyone to blame me... It can be all my fault... Most seem to think it is anyhow...

 

[jayt]

J, not that it really matters to me, but why on earth would there be a rule on the size of the tank or perc of nitro??

My point with that comment was in answer to a statement made by another poster that there are limits for fuel boats and there should be limits for FE boats. The only fuel limit is engine displacement, which is correlative to voltage in FE. Fuel tank capacity and nitro percentage are more akin to battery capacity and type. In short - there are no other limits for either fuel or electrics.
I refrain from commenting on the rules until I see them in person. Others should do the same - but of course they don't. More's the pity.

.

 

[piper_chuck]

There is no reason for debate UNTIL THE RULES ARE IN THE HANDS OF THE MEMBERS. They have been mailed out. Please read them first, then ask questions and enter into discussions. Jumping to conclusions now is counter-productive and will result in misinformed voters and a screwed up vote. As long as we keep to facts and not emotion, we will make the right decisions. Thanks.

This comment interests me. Why is it that many proposals get drawn up in secret and nobody gets to talk about them UNTIL the voting has begun. Wouldn't it be better to have some debate FIRST, and then submit the proposal based on the results of the discussion?

 

[Darin Jordan]

Wouldn't it be better to have some debate FIRST, and then submit the proposal based on the results of the discussion?

I tend to agree... but the phrase "bogged down in committee" immediately comes to mind... Reference any number of threads on the lipo subject on the RR site... :blink:

 

[Al Waters]

If I can be of any help here, Terry contacted me back in November or December of 2004. I did not know Terry back then but through e-mails and phone calls we built up a model boating relationship. Terry wrote an article on Lipos that was published in our March 2005 edition of the NAMBA Propwash. It is available on the NAMBA web site.

Since that time, I traveled and CD'd the 05 and 06 MMEU Cup races and the FE Nats in 06. The MMEU Cup in 05 was also the FE NAMBA Nats where there were just under 500 boats. From that time until today, I have met a lot of FE boaters and have learned a lot about FE motors, boats and setups................ and I still only know a drop in the bucket but I try and stay informed. I feel that its my job as NAMBA President.

From that first day back in November 2004, you can trust me that there have been a lot of discussions and debates with me and many other FE boaters. That doesnt include the debates and discussions that they have had among themselves. I probably have single handedly slowed the process of advancement in FE technology with regards to rules for NAMBA FE boaters. I am a very safety in mind person. I was the same way with the 2.4 gig Specktrum radio systems which NAMBA now recognizes for model boat use.

A lot of things that are being brought up here that should be done about debating and discussing have been going on for two years. We have debated and we have discussed among many boaters here on the west coast as well as with those on the east coast.

The east coast will be running nitro and FE boats in the same heats together next year to see how things work out. That was a one year discussion. Not too many people knew what was going on. We didnt want to hear or read thepossible negativity that I am seeing out here right now.

I did not write the proposals. I did not have input on these proposals, but I am sure that those who did put the package together knew of my feelings if they want to see my support. After all, I have to make sure that we have affordable insurance and with that comes model boating safety in mind. Is the package perfect? Only time will tell. The membersip will decide that.

The NAMBA FE rule proposal package is going out first class mail and should be arriving shortly to all NAMBA members for voting.

Thank you very much,

Al Waters

 

[piper_chuck]

J, not that it really matters to me, but why on earth would there be a rule on the size of the tank or perc of nitro??

My point with that comment was in answer to a statement made by another poster that there are limits for fuel boats and there should be limits for FE boats. The only fuel limit is engine displacement, which is correlative to voltage in FE. Fuel tank capacity and nitro percentage are more akin to battery capacity and type. In short - there are no other limits for either fuel or electrics.

This fuel tank size argument is not accurate. Voltage AND available amperage both play a factor in the amount of power a motor can put out. A larger capacity battery usually allows a larger current flow, hence more power.

 

[Don Ferrette]

J, not that it really matters to me, but why on earth would there be a rule on the size of the tank or perc of nitro??

My point with that comment was in answer to a statement made by another poster that there are limits for fuel boats and there should be limits for FE boats. The only fuel limit is engine displacement, which is correlative to voltage in FE. Fuel tank capacity and nitro percentage are more akin to battery capacity and type. In short - there are no other limits for either fuel or electrics.

This fuel tank size argument is not accurate. Voltage AND available amperage both play a factor in the amount of power a motor can put out. A larger capacity battery usually allows a larger current flow, hence more power.

Agreed. You don't need to be an amphead to know that one.

 

[T.S.Davis]

If you could find a way to make your fuel engine burn fuel faster would you get more power? That's what we've done over time with FE. The tank we were carrying with us got better so we found better ways to burn the fuel. This isn't a new concept in FE. The rules are written that way now. Maybe Jay will remember where we started with FE battteries. Maybe 1500 mah Sub C packs. Now we're up to 4300 mah. Same voltage but more output. They just keep making the batteries better. Same tank. More fuel. LiPo are a different technology but the concept is the same.

 

[jayt]

Agreed. You don't need to be an amphead to know that one.

Unfortunately, I'll have to dispute that statement.

Fuel tank capacity and nitro percentage are more akin to battery capacity and type.

Somone who understands FE would know that when I referred to cell type the analogy to nitro content is a direct comparison, just as tank capacity is akin to cell capacity. Does increasing the percentage of nitro in a fuel lead to increased power? Does a cell with less internal resistance lead to increased power? Answer to both - yes. High-capacity LiPo cells have less internal resistance directly related to cell size and type.
I have started a thread to help fuel guys better understand FE basics - if you have questions or do not understand something, please ask there and I'll try to answer as best I can. Making the wrong assumptions does not help, it is devisive. We do not need all the negativity guys - it is just toy boats. (No politics on the primer thread - keep that BS here.) Let's at least try to correctly understand each other's technology....

PS - Terry, when I started we were using SCR1200 cells. Speeds were low and it was a struggle to get enough run time to complete a heat. :blink:

.

 

[Don Ferrette]

You are comparing apples to oranges, nice try but I'm not buying into it just yet. Amperage is your true source of big power & is the closest thing to IC displacement limits, not voltages. In my opinion these new "super cells" with all this capacity create a need for amperage limits to keep the playing field level. I did like what someone mentioned something like spec fuses, simple & straight forward, you pull higher amps than the "class limit" & you pop the fuse. I'm not trying to choose a side here, just looking at the big picture. If you don't keep it in check I see the "little guys" without the deep or sponsored pockets getting pushed right out of the picture. :huh:

 

[jayt]

Don, I wish you'd post in the primer thread so you would get a better understanding of the basics of FE. The apples and apples comparison is voltage and displacement for differentiating the different classes. Amperage is the same for most all classes, it is differences in voltage which determines the ultimate power level of each particular class. Amps times volts = watts = horsepower. 200 amps with 7.4 volts is 1480 watts = 2 hp. 200 amps with 14.8 volts = 4 hp. 200 amps with 37 volts = 7400 watts = 10 hp. The amps remain the same, it is the voltage which changes the power level. Think of voltage as displacement, and amperage as the amount of energy in a pint of fuel. The bigger engine burns more fuel and produces more power. The higher voltage amplifies the cell's amperage. Is that a more clear analogy?

Amperage is directly related to the cell's internal resistance, which is related to its capacity and type. You have to understand how FE works before you can make an informed decision, and I am trying to help with that. Please try to meet me half way here.

.

 

[Kris Flynn]

I was about to close this thread but at the end the tone came good again...i am sick of reading this rules crap...as has been said before WAIT TILL THEY COME OUT!!!

I stopped reading it on RRR cause it was the same stuff repeated over and over so please guys stay calm and dont repeat it all on here. Jay's thread will be great for everyone to get a better grasp on how FE works and compares to Nitro IMO.

Kris

 

[piper_chuck]

Don, I wish you'd post in the primer thread so you would get a better understanding of the basics of FE. The apples and apples comparison is voltage and displacement for differentiating the different classes. Amperage is the same for most all classes, it is differences in voltage which determines the ultimate power level of each particular class. Amps times volts = watts = horsepower. 200 amps with 7.4 volts is 1480 watts = 2 hp. 200 amps with 14.8 volts = 4 hp. 200 amps with 37 volts = 7400 watts = 10 hp. The amps remain the same, it is the voltage which changes the power level. Think of voltage as displacement, and amperage as the amount of energy in a pint of fuel. The bigger engine burns more fuel and produces more power. The higher voltage amplifies the cell's amperage. Is that a more clear analogy?

I have a bunch of motors in my shop. They are all wired for 110 volts. Some draw a couple amps and the biggest draws around 12 amps. The biggest one has way more power than the smallest ones. Why is it that they can make more power if as you say, the only variable is voltage? Answer is simple, voltage is not the only part of the power equation, amps drawn also matters. Vary the amps in your calculations instead of the volts and this will be obvious. If the battery being used can output more amps, a motor can be chosen which will draw more current and therefore have more power.

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Chuck,

If the battery being used can output more amps, a motor can be chosen which will draw more current and therefore have more power.

If it were only that simple. :lol:

Paul.