At least the IMPBA made rules that are clear

[sjslhill]

It's just this simple.....LiPoly cells come from Asia, they do not have labels on them like NIMH cells do. If you set a 7400mah limit on a class, it cannot be regulated at all. Is the CD going to watch you charge the pack? Anyone knows that technology improves just about every month and without amp limits or weight limits, the new LiPoly rules will be wide open regardless of some mah spec.

I don't agree with what the IMPBA did but at least anyone running LiPoly will be legal if the voltage is correct. However, those rules will be totally out of cost control. You could run $500 for batteries easily on N2 class.

As for me selling them, it's very risky in my opinion to sell these packs and that's why I have been all over the place. There are 720mah 2S fire videos that are viloent, I can't imagine a 7400mah pack going. There is safe technolgy like the A123 Li-Ion and LiPoly cells with additives like the Appogee packs but all of this was ignored in my opinion because F/E USA has turned into a huge technology race and it's going to hurt the hobby.

You can somehow turn this info into a bash the Steve Hill vendor story, sorry it does not hold water. If this is a vendor story, I would be seeking unlimited rules and sponsoring people to sell more packs, not the case.

BL motors are capable of drawing so many amps, instead of limiting this, more capacity is being added. It would be like a .21 99% nitro motor allowing fuel injection or turbo chargers, that's where F/E is headed.

I don't agree with holding everything back, maybe you should have looked at one unlimited class and have limits on the rest.

The largest F/E club in America, CMBC, has strick rule limits on batteries and motors and it's growing, why? Cost control.

Goodluck with new rules, I see them hurting the future of your numbers.

regards,

Steve

 

[Don Ferrette]

Don, I wish you'd post in the primer thread so you would get a better understanding of the basics of FE. The apples and apples comparison is voltage and displacement for differentiating the different classes. Amperage is the same for most all classes, it is differences in voltage which determines the ultimate power level of each particular class. Amps times volts = watts = horsepower. 200 amps with 7.4 volts is 1480 watts = 2 hp. 200 amps with 14.8 volts = 4 hp. 200 amps with 37 volts = 7400 watts = 10 hp. The amps remain the same, it is the voltage which changes the power level. Think of voltage as displacement, and amperage as the amount of energy in a pint of fuel. The bigger engine burns more fuel and produces more power. The higher voltage amplifies the cell's amperage. Is that a more clear analogy?

I have a bunch of motors in my shop. They are all wired for 110 volts. Some draw a couple amps and the biggest draws around 12 amps. The biggest one has way more power than the smallest ones. Why is it that they can make more power if as you say, the only variable is voltage? Answer is simple, voltage is not the only part of the power equation, amps drawn also matters. Vary the amps in your calculations instead of the volts and this will be obvious. If the battery being used can output more amps, a motor can be chosen which will draw more current and therefore have more power.

Chuck beat me to it. Voltage is only HALF the power equation in FE so again I don't buy the voltage only angle in that it is only what equals displacement. Some of you ampheads make broad based assumptions that we IC guys are completely clueless on how this stuff works. I work with electric motors on a much grander scale in controlling output levels of the HVAC systems in my building. The voltage always remains the same to the HVAC supply fans but when we up the load by pitching up the inlet guide vanes (this would equate to adding a bigger prop ) , & draw more amps the fans deliver more volume, only difference is I'm pushing air not water. Using your own math example of amps x volts = watts = horsepower-

100 amps @ 14.8 volts is 1480 watts

200 amps @ 14.8 volts is 2960 watts

400 amps @ 14.8 volts is 5920 watts

Watts equals horsepower so higher capacity batteries, i.e. MORE AMPS equals MORE POWER.

You want to have the motor draw more amps you load it harder, in this case a bigger prop. What does a bigger prop mean? It means you go FASTER. The guys who have the motors that can handle the higher amps (read more expensive) & the batteries capable of delivering the same high amps (again read more expensive) will have a huge advantage over the guy who can't afford that mega buck stuff but has to run in the same class. And BTW- there is simply no comparision to say a nitro motor where one guy runs a stock motor & one guy runs a modded motor as you won't double or triple you power output if somebody grinds on it (if only it were that easy) like you can when you double or triple your amp output with batteries.

So tell me again how amps remain the same and it is the voltage which changes the power level. <_<

Like I said before, I'm not picking sides just looking at this in a broad based spectrum. My concern is because of the recent ability of newer and MORE EXPENSIVE battery technology the guys with the deepest pockets and/or sponsorships will have a grotesquely unfair advantage over the "little guys" and ultimately shoot yourselves in the foot when all you have left is a small group of financially armed racers. It would seem to me a voltage AND amperage cap (an in-line fuse?) and adding some unlimited classes would serve the best of both. Guess that seems too simple.......

Also to make you happy I'm going to cut & paste this entire post in the primer section.

 

[sjslhill]

The concept is not the same at all. LiPoly cell weigh much less and you can double the capacity and have the same weight, With NIMH you could not parallel the cells it was against the rules. Even if you allowed this, weight increases would slow the small classes down. With non paralled NIMH cells you have an amp limit and therefore a natural limit on power. With LiPoly you just doubled that power, increased the danger and the costs of everything. Better motors, better controllers, higher cost battery packs and on and on.

Maybe Nitro should allow Tetra Nitro Methane or Hyrdazine now as well.

regards,

Steve

If you could find a way to make your fuel engine burn fuel faster would you get more power? That's what we've done over time with FE. The tank we were carrying with us got better so we found better ways to burn the fuel. This isn't a new concept in FE. The rules are written that way now. Maybe Jay will remember where we started with FE battteries. Maybe 1500 mah Sub C packs. Now we're up to 4300 mah. Same voltage but more output. They just keep making the batteries better. Same tank. More fuel. LiPo are a different technology but the concept is the same.

 

[T.S.Davis]

Don, are you suggesting we "keep the playing field level" with nitro or with each other?

We already have more power than we can safely burn with our existing equipment. 40 volts at 160 amps is about as much power as you can buy equipment for at this time. We could do this with NiMh. The deep pocket guys could already burn that kind of power every time they hit the water. They might have to replace cells every heat but hey their pockets are deep so they can swing it right? It's not happening though. The deep pocket guy isn't doing that to win.

If we had an amp limit who gets to pick it? What would we base it on? Available equipment? A racer budget? Then we also have to deal with the fact that the amperage varies. IN the straights maybe it's 80 amps and in the turns 150+ amps. Imagine two racers. We have a guy that likes to hold his speed through the turn but not so fast in the straight and one that likes to be quick up the straight and a little slower in the turns. They both drain the cells in the same amount of time. The max amperage for each guy is different. Which guy is right? Pauls, right. It's just not that simple. haha the guy that wins I guess.

The beauty of the new cells is that we don't have to replace them half way through the season. Well, in theory. This hasn't proven itself out yet IMO. I do know that a 120 amp setup with the right LiPo comes off the water warm after a dozen laps. We can choose the right cell/cells for the job without pushing them to the edge. The cells aren't cooked. A 120 amp NiMh setup comes off the water toasted like a baggle with cream cheese after 2 minutes. That set of cells is shot after that race weekend.

The FE classes have been voltage based since inception. We have stock classes where the playing field is deliberately leveled.

1200's! I think I have a set of those in one of my old cars. The amperage limits arguement could have been made every time a new cell came out with more power available.

 

[T.S.Davis]

400 amps @ 14.8 volts is 5920 watts

Where can you get this?

 

[sjslhill]

"The amperage limits arguement could have been made every time a new cell came out with more power available."

Why did you allow every new cell to be legal? CMBC runs 1500mha NICAD packs in CrackerBox, they costs $10 a pack and boats finish races. Instead of looking at limits to make better racing, current org. allowed any cell in Crackerbox and many cannot control the power and the boats flip and people start bashing the class.

N2 racing has been ruined in the same way.....BL should have never been allowed in that class. There are no non BL classes that run 6 cells now expect for N1, stock motors are fine but not everyones cup of tea. 700 motors require 12 cells and larger boats.

Face it, technology is out of control in F/E......costs will follow.

regards,

Steve

Don, are you suggesting we "keep the playing field level" with nitro or with each other?
We already have more power than we can safely burn with our existing equipment. 40 volts at 160 amps is about as much power as you can buy equipment for at this time. We could do this with NiMh. The deep pocket guys could already burn that kind of power every time they hit the water. They might have to replace cells every heat but hey their pockets are deep so they can swing it right? It's not happening though. The deep pocket guy isn't doing that to win.

If we had an amp limit who gets to pick it? What would we base it on? Available equipment? A racer budget? Then we also have to deal with the fact that the amperage varies. IN the straights maybe it's 80 amps and in the turns 150+ amps. Imagine two racers. We have a guy that likes to hold his speed through the turn but not so fast in the straight and one that likes to be quick up the straight and a little slower in the turns. They both drain the cells in the same amount of time. The max amperage for each guy is different. Which guy is right? Pauls, right. It's just not that simple. haha the guy that wins I guess.

The beauty of the new cells is that we don't have to replace them half way through the season. Well, in theory. This hasn't proven itself out yet IMO. I do know that a 120 amp setup with the right LiPo comes off the water warm after a dozen laps. We can choose the right cell/cells for the job without pushing them to the edge. The cells aren't cooked. A 120 amp NiMh setup comes off the water toasted like a baggle with cream cheese after 2 minutes. That set of cells is shot after that race weekend.

The FE classes have been voltage based since inception. We have stock classes where the playing field is deliberately leveled.

1200's! I think I have a set of those in one of my old cars. The amperage limits arguement could have been made every time a new cell came out with more power available.

 

[sjslhill]

Two Tanic 4S 5000mah packs in parallel can do 500 amps according to his website.

400 amps @ 14.8 volts is 5920 watts

Where can you get this?

 

[T.S.Davis]

Two Tanic 4S 5000mah packs in parallel can do 500 amps according to his website.

400 amps @ 14.8 volts is 5920 watts

Where can you get this?

What would you plug them into?

 

[Don Ferrette]

400 amps @ 14.8 volts is 5920 watts

Where can you get this?

Terry that is just part of the math example.

BTW- I was referring to the level playing field within FE. As for limits to amperage it was a thought or suggestion since there have been posts asking for some ideas. Now as for actual physical limits, well that's up to you guys. B)

 

[sjslhill]

They will make this motor and controller, just wait. Did you know that F5B is looking at controlling amps? They know that LiPoly technology can ruin the entire sport if they are not managed.

Yes, I know, I have not seen the rule options yet...your correct. My thoughts are that Q, S and T will be unlimited though. I hope that P is not.

regards,

Steve

Two Tanic 4S 5000mah packs in parallel can do 500 amps according to his website.

400 amps @ 14.8 volts is 5920 watts

Where can you get this?

What would you plug them into?

 

[sjslhill]

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread....les#post6518818

We are likely to see the 16 sub C cells rule changed to 14 sub C cells. Also likely is the allowance of Lipo cells with a weight limit between 500 and 700 grams. Also a possibility is the requirement for a device in the plane that would limit the watt-minutes of power that can be drawn from the cells.

This is what is being discussed but we will not know any more until the meeting.

The initial breadboard version with basic software has been tested and it works.

Chuck

 

[T.S.Davis]

Steve, are you suggesting that 1500mah NiCd's and 05 brushed motors would make participation explode? My experience with racers is that they want to go faster. Then faster tomorrow than they did today. Some racers I know would walk away from racing at 20 mph for 5 laps. I would put myself on that list. Even the car guys are like this.

Sounds like your complaint with NAMBA (FE) is that it's chased technology for years. This latest is just one of many for you. Am I close?

 

[sjslhill]

No, this is just an example of what CMBC is doing with one N1 Crackerbox class, why do you twist everything? They have 50 members, by the way, I guess they all did not walk away.

N2 classes with burshed motors ran faster than 20 mph, what do they do now 60map?, that's great for new people. Throw in some new LiPos and make them run 80 mph.

Steve, are you suggesting that 1500mah NiCd's and 05 brushed motors would make participation explode? My experience with racers is that they want to go faster. Then faster tomorrow than they did today. Some racers I know would walk away from racing at 20 mph for 5 laps. I would put myself on that list. Even the car guys are like this.
Sounds like your complaint with NAMBA (FE) is that it's chased technology for years. This latest is just one of many for you. Am I close?

 

[sjslhill]

double posted....please delete

 

[sjslhill]

Okay guys.....I am done. Goodluck with the new rules.......no hard feelings. Been around this hobby for 20 years now, no I have not been to any big races recently, why? It costs too much now if you ask me. Goodluck with the vote and the new rules. Best of luck with the 2007 Nats Darin. Keep up the the cool racing with Nitro Paul and Kelly. I was kinda hard on Terry, many say that your a nice guy, sorry that I slammed you.

regards,

Steve

 

[T.S.Davis]

50 crackerboxes! That has got to be a riot. No kidding. We're going back to basics in MMEU this year too. With low cell count classes and a brushed class. Trying to spur some more interest. We'll see how it goes. 35 volt monsters are cool but they wont attract a new racer.

I think the SAW record for N2 mono is only in the high 40's now. I can't remember if anyone went after it last month. IMPBA just went to BL in N2 also. Not sure what clubs were running that though.

BTW I didn't allow any new cells to be legal. NAMBA doesn't "allow" anything. The members vote for or against what they want. If they wanted NiCd to be the max they could have voted down the NiMh proposal years ago when we were still using 2400's. Unless the addition of NiMh was an executive order. I doubt it was though.

 

[T.S.Davis]

many say that your a nice guy, sorry that I slammed you.

Don't believe a word of it Steve. Those guys are delusional.

Someday we'll get to a race at the same time. We'll hang out. Take some shots at Paul. It'll be fun. He's big but he's slow. Bad knees.

 

[sjslhill]

Not all 50 run CB and not all 50 come to every race, there are 50 members total. I know that it's the members and not you directly.

thanks,

Steve

50 crackerboxes! That has got to be a riot. No kidding. We're going back to basics in MMEU this year too. With low cell count classes and a brushed class. Trying to spur some more interest. We'll see how it goes. 35 volt monsters are cool but they wont attract a new racer.
I think the SAW record for N2 mono is only in the high 40's now. I can't remember if anyone went after it last month. IMPBA just went to BL in N2 also. Not sure what clubs were running that though.

BTW I didn't allow any new cells to be legal. NAMBA doesn't "allow" anything. The members vote for or against what they want. If they wanted NiCd to be the max they could have voted down the NiMh proposal years ago when we were still using 2400's. Unless the addition of NiMh was an executive order. I doubt it was though.

 

[Mark Bullard]

Amps, Voltage, Horsepower!!! I have been reading a lot of what ya'll are saying but I think that ya'll have missed the boat on alot of this. And it may be from company's that say but don't know themselves.

Here it is in simple terms and don't everyone throw this back at me but I am trying to make it simple.

Voltage is the medium that is used to carry the product to make the motor turn.

Voltage on a motor to make it turn must be greater than zero and is unlimited on the upper end. Now the voltage must be great enough to over come the inertia of the rotor and the max voltage is only in the limit of the insulation of the windings. Will the higher the voltage make the motor run faster, Yes and No. A DC motor with brushes will increase speed with the more voltage applied or untill the limit of the rotating mass. A AC brushless motor or what we would call a induction motor will not increase speed. Their speed is base on the number of poles at the Synchronous RPM. The Synchronous RPM in AC motors is a very simple math formula.

Hertz X 120

Synchronous RPM = ---------------

Poles

So with this formula a 4 Pole motor will turn only 1800 RPM's at 60hz. So the end results is the motors that ya'll are using will not increase speed with voltage but only with a change of Hertz.

Amperes is the results of the motor turning at load.

This is what it is. The more load on the motor the more amps the motor will see. The limits here are the size of the wire or conductors/devices that carry the voltage to the motor and the motor winding themselves.

Horsepower is the end results to what the motor's limit can product at the giving amperes and voltage.

Now with all of this said the larger amp per hour batteries will allow a motor to product the same horsepower for a longer time or more horsepower for the same time of the lower amp per hour batteries. The limit will be the motor. The higher voltage will not product more RPM in the brushless motors. Motors with magnetic rotors will have more torque at lower speeds than motors that do not have magnetic rotors. To tell if you have a magnetic rotor, short two of the leads of the motor and then turn the motor by hand. If the motor appears to be lockup then the motor has a magnetic rotor. A motor with out a magnetic rotor will have what we call "slip" and this will be a decrease of RPM as the motor is loaded until it reaches it rated "slip".

I have talk about DC motors and AC motors. And the motors that are being used these days are AC motors. You may think that they are DC because of the batteries but they are not the batteries are just the storage medium. The ESD that ya'll use are making the voltage into AC voltage at a variable Hertz. And there is 3 lines of this voltage at 120 degrees of phase shift. Thus this is what we call 3 phase. We could use 5 or 7 or 9 or 11, etc of phases but when NiKola Tesla invented the power we used today, he decided on 3 phases because it was the small number that could be used to make a motor turn. Thomas Edison was the one that created DC. But this is a whole different history lesson. But one thing thay you may not know is that a DC motor run on AC inside the armature. DC voltage is applied to a DC motor brush. As it passes thru the comutator to the winding it is converted to AC. AC is then used in the winding and then when it leaves the comutator on the other side it is converted back to DC before it exits the other brush.

I did not talk about your housewhole motors because they are different type of motor all together. They are what we call Single Phase motors. They are still AC induction motors but work on a different way.

I hope this will help you understand Amperes, Voltage, Horsepower, and Motors.

Mark

 

[JfromJAGs]

Using your own math example of amps x volts = watts = horsepower-100 amps @ 14.8 volts is 1480 watts

200 amps @ 14.8 volts is 2960 watts

400 amps @ 14.8 volts is 5920 watts

Watts equals horsepower so higher capacity batteries, i.e. MORE AMPS equals MORE POWER.

Don, you got my deapest respect. You - as a nitro burner - understand more of this than most of the FE guys. For this, including Jay. Sorry Jay, but you are not 100% right with your thoughts. Electric motors can use all the power the batteries will feed them, just adjust size and rpm which are unlimited. And Electic power is voltage x current, so power comes from voltage AND current.

To make a long story short, the only way to limit electric power of boats is to limit the power source, the amount of energy they carry in their batteries - which is voltage x capacity. Either directly by limiting count AND size of cells - OR (like the plane guys want it) by using an eletronical device to measure power from voltage x current and time (thus energy) and then shut the controller down once it's over a certain energy (watt-hour) limit. A limit quite below the energy stored in the battery, so they will not get hurt by deap discharge. Pretty smart, but got some drawbacks for boats racing in a crowds.

Anyway, this will sound very arrogant now and I know I will not make friends with it, but I think all the discussions (which for sure were done) are pretty useless, if the people who talked and argued don't exactly understand the basics of electric power! How should they come up with a good proposal? Sorry, this matter is pretty complex stuff. That's the real reason why people like me are aguing now. And the complexity is the reason why there are so many ideas how to solve it, not many understand it completely.

But what most people, electric racers or not, WILL understand is the following: in case the new NAMBA rule proposal passes completely, it allows more than DOUBLE POWER compared to 2006 in every class except some entry classes. Everyone will hopefully understand that this is of some HUGE impact.

I don't know if anyone told Mr. Al Waters, president of the NAMBA, this would be the case ?!

Joerg Mrkwitschka

(NAMBA T Hydro record @140.36mph)